OSAS and future sins?

It is not a prayer said that saves. It is by faith in Jesus Christ that saves. He is our eternal security of salvation. Without Christ there is no salvation.

In 1 Peter 1:4. It says, " to obtain an inheritance [which is] imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,"

The word for "reserved" is a pefect passive participle. A perfect participle puts the emphasis on the existing result. A pefect participle will be antecedent to the time of the leading verb, but the state that has resulted from thast past action wil be contemporaneous with the leading verb.

The point is that salvation will be reserved in heaven from the time of a person's confession of faith which is in past tense but the being kept or reserved is in the same time as the leading verb.

Salvation is being kept from past tense until now with its emphasis upon the fact that the person is saved.

 

Lets try " Will be saved".

Rev 2:26 To him who overcomes and does my will to the end , I will give authority over the nations--


The "END" of what? The point of FAITH for our first forgiveness of PAST sins or the end of our Life/When Jesus returns to collect?

Do you want to be the LAZY servant that hid his masters money or the one who made something of it? Remember, both were servants but only one GOT Heaven.

 

Because Scripture clearly commands it (1 John 1:9). Really, after thinking of it, I would modify my response just a bit. The penalty for all of our sins was paid for on the cross. There is not one that was not atoned for. However, to become receive this forgiveness we must confess our sins. I do not see confession (which I believe means to be in agreement with) as the same as "asking" for forgiveness, although I do both (I will have to think some on this issue). The forgiveness is already there, but there is a part in which we cooperate with God in receiving this forgiveness, namely confession.

Good question and a good one to think on. I believe I will have to talk to one of my professors next week and get his input on this.

In the Lord Jesus Christ,
Neal

 

Because Scripture clearly commands it (1 John 1:9). Really, after thinking of it, I would modify my response just a bit. The penalty for all of our sins was paid for on the cross. There is not one that was not atoned for. However, to become receive this forgiveness we must confess our sins. I do not see confession (which I believe means to be in agreement with) as the same as "asking" for forgiveness, although I do both (I will have to think some on this issue). The forgiveness is already there, but there is a part in which we cooperate with God in receiving this forgiveness, namely confession.

Good question and a good one to think on. I believe I will have to talk to one of my professors next week and get his input on this.</font>[/QUOTE]Neal, in the light of what you just said here, can you make some comparisons with John 20:22-23?

The famous "Forgive-retain" pair seen here is the basis of the Sacrament of reconsiliation in the Catholic Church - Confessions to a Priest who either grants absolution or retains it (as a judgment that the penitant is not truly sorry for his/her sins or refuses to make a restitution for, say, returning stolen goods or other wise make a compensation for a theft, for example.)

How would you handle the situation where a "born again Christian" is tempted and succembs to the temptation to adultary? Must he ask God for forgiveness or can he/she simply internalize it and simply declare it as already forgiven (being in "agreement" as you said) at the cross?

Or, if that is a bit too sticky, if one steals, must that individual make some sort of a restitution? Can that individual internalize that sin and simply say, "it is fixed at the cross" yet retain the stolen goods?

Just curious...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!

 

You miss my point, Bill. It is not merely an "internal" making up of your mind that your sin is paid for. Confession still involves confessing to someone, God.

If you could show me where I am supposed to confess my sins to a priest for forgiveness in Scripture, I would appreciate it.

And no, the one who stole property should not keep it. That is not ethically correct.

God Bless,
Neal

 

WPutnam asked,

If one does not return the stolen goods and seek the forgiveness from the offended one, is the thief's sin forgiven?

In the Old Testament when one brings an atonement offering to the altar, if he has aught against another, or meaning implied another has aught against him, he is to leave the offering and go make restitution with the other then return to make the offering. That is the example we are to follow.

If I have stolen from another, and seek forgiveness from God without making it right with the other, do I not insult God? Does God not look at me as a fraud, that is dealing fraudulently with another in the eyes of God. How can God forgive me for a sin I did not commit against him? True in treating the other badly, I have violated one of God's primary laws, but if I do not seek to settle the matter with the other, the matter remains an open issue seeking settlement. It is unfinished business, a deed that will be judged.

Even though Jesus' Cross paid the penalty for the sins of the world, the consequences of the deed remain with the perpetrator of the deed. The guilt of the unforgiven sin remains in the one and "eats away" at the person's being, and according to scriptures is the reason for sickness and shame. If the guilty one is a believer in Jesus, the guilt of the unsettled sin is an inhibitor that prevents one from receiving the blessings that enhance ones life. Therefore it is essential that the matter between the human parties be settled regardless of the cost.

 

Peter tells us that we are forgiven for "sins that are past".

Matt 18 provides a clear example of "forgiveness revoked" as does Ezek 18.

The "only consistent" way that OSAS is made is in the case of 4 and 5 point calvinism.

5 Point Calvinism gets to OSAS but can make no consistent case for assurance.

4 Point Calvinism gets to OSAS AND to assurance at the same time in a logical consistent system of logic.

Both are wrong as it turns out - but if you want to discuss BOTH OSAS and Assurance of Salvation - you have to go to 4 point Calvinism.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Good! Now, consider this: suppose the individual does not confess to God? (Anticipating the tried and true comeback I have seen for years now...)

I will be most hapy to:

Read John 20:22-23

The natural law, inherent in all of us, Christians or not, intuitively told you that.

But again, suppose you did not return it?

20 years ago, you "gave your life to Christ" at some tent revival, was faithful to the new Christian community you came into, yet fell and was tempted to steal this item.

"How now, brown cow?"

God Bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Receive the holy Spirit, Whose sins you shall forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained,
John 20:23

 

There are no NT "priests" in the congregation - OTHER Than "the Kingdom of Priests" - which is ALL members.

No OTHER priest on earth is listed in the entire NT text for Christians.

I find it fascinating that the RC response is to invent one in John 20.

Even more fascinating when you consider the RC historians admit "the NT churh leaders REFUSED to be called priests" because they REFUSED the role. They accepted Christ ALONE as their priest.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Why complicate matters so much, Bob? All you have to do is realize what John 20:22-23 is telling you, become a good practicing Catholic, and you have the Sacrament of Reconsiliation.

Salvation, while you are alive and walking on this earth, is never assured:


WHY THERE IS NO ASSURANCE OF SALVATION


Mt 10:22
But whoever holds out till the end will escape death. (NAB)

Mt 24:13
The man who holds out to the end, however, is the one who
will see salvation. (NAB)

Mk 13:13
Nonetheless, the man who holds out till the end is the one
who will come through safe. (NAB)

Lk 9:62
Jesus answered him, "Whoever puts his hand to the plow but
keeps looking back is unfit for the reign of God." (NAB)

Rom 5:2
... we boast of our hope for the glory of God. (NAB)

Rom 8:24-25
In hope we are saved. But hope is not hope if its object is
seen; how is it possible to hope for what he sees? And hoping
for what we cannot see means awaiting it with patient
endurance. (NAB)

1 Cor 10:12
For all these reasons, let anyone who thinks
he is standing upright watch out lest he fall! (NAB)

1 Cor 4:3-5
It matters little to me whether you or any human court
pass judgment on me. I do not even pass judgment on myself.
Mind you, I have nothing on my conscience. But that does
not mean that I am declaring myself innocent. The Lord is
the one to judge me, so stop passing judgment before the
time of his return. He will bring to light what is hidden
in the darkness and manifest the intentions of hearts. At
that time, everyone will receive his praise from God. (NAB)

1 Cor 9:27
No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after
having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.
(NAB)

1 Cor 10:12
Therefore whoever thinks he is standing secure should
take care not to fall. (NAB)

2 Cor 6:3
We avoid giving anyone offense, so that our ministry may
not be blamed. On the contrary, in all that we do we
strive to present ourselves as ministers of God, acting
with patient endurance amid trials, difficulties,
distresses, beatings, imprisonments, and riots; as men
familiar with hard work, sleepless nights and fastings...
(NAB)

Gal 5:1-4
1. For freedom Christ set us free; so stand firm and do
not submit again to the yoke of slavery. 2. It is I, Paul,
who am telling you that if you have yourselves circumsised,
Christ will will be of no benefit to you. 3. Once again, I
declare to every man who has himself circumcised that he is
bound to observe the entire law. 4. You are separated from
Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you
have fallen from grace. (NAB)

Phil 2:12
So then, my dearly beloved, obedient as always to my
urging, work with anxious concern to achieve your
salvation, not only when I happen to be with you but
all the more now that I am absent. It is God, who, in
his good will toward you, begets in you any measure of
desire or achievement. (NAB)

Phil 3:11-14
11 if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the
dead. 12 It is not that I have already taken hold of
it or have already attained perfect maturity , but I
continue my persuit in hope that I may possess it,
since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ
[Jesus]. 13 Brothers, I for my part do not consider my-
self to have taken possession. Just one thing: for-
getting what lies behind but straining forward to what
lies ahead. 14 I continue my pursuit toward the goal,
the prize of God's upward calling, in Christ Jesus.
(NAB)

1 Tim 4:1
Not the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times
some will turn away from the faith by paying attention
to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions...(NAB)

1 Tim 5:15
For some have already turned away to follow Satan. (NAB)

Heb 3:12-15
12 Take care, brothers, that none of you may have an
evil and unfaithful heart, so as to forsake the living
God. 13 Encourage yourselves daily while it is still
"today," so that none of you may grow hardened by the
deceit of sin. 14 We have become partners of Christ if
only we hold the beginning of the reality firm until
the end, 15 for it is said:

Oh, that today you would hear his voice:
"Harden not your hearts as it the
rebellion." (NAB)

Heb 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible in the case of those who have
once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift
and shared in the holy Spirit 5 and tasted the good
word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and
then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance
again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for
themselves and holding him up to contempt.

Heb 6:11-12
Our desire is that each of you show the same zeal till the
end, fully assured of that for which you hope. Do not grow
lazy but Imitate those who through faith and patience, are
inheriting the promises. (NAB)

1 Pet 1:13-15
So gird the loins of your understanding; live soberly; set
your hope on the gift to be conferred on you when Jesus
Christ appears. (NAB)

2 Pet 2:15
Abandoniong the straight road, they have gone astray,
following the road of Baslaam, the son of Bosor, who
loved payment for wrongdowing,...

2 Pet 2:20-21 20
For if they, having escaped the defilement of the world
through the of [our] Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again
become entangled and overcome by them, their last
condition is worse then their first. 21 For it would have
been better for them not to have known the way of righteous-
ness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy
commandment handed down to them.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone
those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your
children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings,
but YOU WERE UNWILLING!

Matt 23:37

 

Since you will never be judged for a single sin, what difference does it make then?If you will still end up in Heaven, what difference does it make if your fellowship is broken?

Is this how you would respond to the God that saved you?

 

Bill - you miss the point entirely.

I don't believe in OSAS.

I DO believe in the assurance of salvation.

Romans 8:16 "His Spirit bears WITNESS with OUR spirit that WE ARE the Children of God".

1John 5:13 "These things I have written that you may KNOW you HAVE eternal life".

Romans 5:1 "Having BEEN Justified we HAVE peace with God"

1John 5:10-11 "He who believes HAS the witness IN himself..and the witness is THIS - that God HAS GIVEN us Eternal life".

If you read my post carefully - I am simply saying that when asking about OSAS AND assurance - the model you should seek an answer from is the 4 point calvinist since ONLY they have a consistent argument for it.

(Just because I don't agree with those views - does not mean I can not recognize the option that has the most consistent format).

In Christ,

Bob

 

These texts on "perseverance do NOT nullify assurance".

You can know TODAY that you are born-again - saved - in Christ.

But in the true spirit of the Arminian model - you can always choose next year to turn away- to fall back - to fail to persevere - to "fall from Grace" as we see in Gal 5.

The argument for perseverance that you show from scripture is an argument against OSAS But NOT against Assurance.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bill, what if your priest is having a bad day and doesn't want to forgive your sins? What do you do now? Or say you really tick him off and he witholds your forgiveness? You know, since we are going to ask silly if....then questions around here.

I don't know, I am not God. You can ask him.

What happens if an individual does not confess to the priest?

In Christ,
Neal

 

Lets try " Will be saved".

Rev 2:26 To him who overcomes and does my will to the end , I will give authority over the nations--


The "END" of what? The point of FAITH for our first forgiveness of PAST sins or the end of our Life/When Jesus returns to collect?

Do you want to be the LAZY servant that hid his masters money or the one who made something of it? Remember, both were servants but only one GOT Heaven. </font>[/QUOTE]In I Peter it is contemporaneous with the leading verb, It is the idea was saved and is saved, It spans two English tenses.

 

When one believes as in John 3:16, that one is "marked" through his belief for salvation, which is having everlasting life with the Christ who is the object of belief as stated in verse 16. It is belief in Jesus that one retains for the duration of this "natural life" that assures salvation.

It is the faith condition held when we depart this life that determines whether or not one faces judgement after this life. (John 3:18)

It is not difficult to understand for those who believe in Jesus.

 

How can one not believe in OSAS, and at the same time, believe in the assurance of salvation?

Your scripture quotes do nothing to support your proposition here, but that so long as we are faithful to God, he will keep His promises of salvation for us! (To be as succinct as possible.)

Finally, please explain how 4-point calvinism explains all of this without violating the natural law that is intuitive in the hearts and minds of all humans that one must have a free will of choice to either believe or not to believe, sin or not to sin, inn order to achieve actual salvation at the time of death.

I also think those scripture quotes I gave you once again are important reading for all, including all Calvinists of what ever number they are...

God bless,

PAX


Bill+†+


I believe in God,
the Father Almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son,
Our Lord;
who was conceived by the holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died,
and was buried.

He descended into hell;
the third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
sitteth at the right hand of God,
the Father almighty;
from thence He shall come to judge
the living and the dead.

I believe in the holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

 

These texts on "perseverance do NOT nullify assurance".

You can know TODAY that you are born-again - saved - in Christ.</font>[/QUOTE]Oh, I quite agree! I can say that at this moment, as I type on my keyboard, that if I were to drop dead now, I will achieve heaven!

What about next week? Suppose I were to fall into a serious sin that I do not ask for forgiveness? Suppose I were to aposticize completely and fall away from the Lord?

But Bob, even while I have assurrence that at this very moment, I am in a "state of grace" with My Lord does not guarantee that I will remain so next week! In other words, I cannot be assured that I will remain faithful to My Lord at the moment of my death. The very fact that I can fall away somewhere between now and the moment of my death is certainly not assurence, is it?

I am assured of salvation only if I remain faithful to My God, do not sin or I immediately ask for forgiveness for those sins and that I do not falter along the way in my road to salvation.

The onus remains on me, not God, that I am saved. So long as I continue to hold the cross up high will I be saved in the end.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not
thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:
Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn
away his wrath from him.
Proverbs 24:17-18

 

Simple - I demonstrated it "in the points" of the post I made - feel free to address one and show your work.

Fine as a opening "claim" on your part - now "show that it is true". Take one of my actual points and the text given and "show" that there is no assurance in that text.

Also feel free to "Show" that I am wrong when I point out that assurance of salvation - being saved today - IS NOT the same as "assurance that you will persevere forever in the future", feel free to "show" that they "must be the same thing" according to God's Word.

You can not.

Recall that assurance is often re-stated as "If you died today do you know you would go to heaven".

It is not of the form "If you die in ten years do you KNOW that you would have persevered from now until that time".

Earth to Bill. I am Arminian not Calvinist.

I have stated that 4-point Calvinism provides the best - most internally consistent story for getting to both OSAS and assurance at the same time. It does so by denying both free will and perseverance. But it is "consistent" in that it never states faith in either of those doctrines which is a "requirment" to really have OSAS AND assurance at the same time and remain consistent.

All other forms of Calvinism are inconsistent on that point.

#1. You do not become "born again" at the "time of death".

#2. You do not need "free will" to sin. As a totally depraved sinful human - enslaved to the "god of this world" (Eph 2:1-4) you are perfectly capable of "sinning".

They "prove" perseverance. Certainly that would be a confronting view to 4-point Calvinists. The "fact" that perseverance is "required" would refute their position.

However 5-point Calvinists claim that perseverance is "required". They say you must persevere and that if you don't - you never were saved to start with - no matter how much you "thought you were". Your text confront their view by saying that "you must remain faithful" - as if "you could BE faithful and ever NOT be faithful at some future point". (something that the 5 point position must deny). In other words the "form of the warning" is impossible in 5-point Calvinism.

They "must have it" as follows "You WILL perservere without a question IF you are truly of God today and there is NOTHING to persevere IN if you are in fact still lost". That is a form we never find in scripture.

So although your texts address the point of perseverance - they do not (as your title suggests) address the point of "assurance being negated".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Simple - I demonstrated it "in the points" of the post I made - feel free to address one and show your work.

Fine as a opening "claim" on your part - now "show that it is true". Take one of my actual points and the text given and "show" that there is no assurance in that text.</font>[/QUOTE]I'm sorry but I am completely lost. You are going to have to lead me by the hand and exegete scripture for me, where applicable, that you will make your points.

Bob, how can I do that when you do not, at least to my satisfaction, if you do not back-up your claims, wih a modicum of documentation, scripture or otherwise? I know you have quoted scriptures, which I claim do nothing to support your proposition. The onus is on YOU to back-up your claims with substance, not for me to make a stabbing guess as to how you are going to make your case with a refutation I have no idea how I will start?

If I stand up and make the claim, "the earth is flat," you would expect me to show some proof, right?

Of course, this is a rediculous example as it can be easily proven otherwise, but I think you would at least like to see how my argument goes for making such a claim so that you may get your hands on it in the development of your refutation.

Is that asking for too much, is it, Bob?

Sure, and I gave you my answer already!

Yes, but assurance of salvation, as stated by most non-Catholics, is of the OSAS variety - that once one is saved, salvation cannot be lost.

I last said:

Finally, please explain how 4-point calvinism explains all of this without violating the natural law that is intuitive in the hearts and minds of all humans

OK, glad you are not Calvinist!

Will a real true 4-point Calvinist come forth and explain this to me them?

I last said:

one must have a free will of choice to either believe or not to believe, sin or not to sin, inn order to achieve actual salvation at the time of death.

Agreed! You become JUDGED at the time of death! If you are "born again" at one time, yet denounce Christ and fall back into the former sins, you will be condemned to hell!

Therefore, if at gun point, I help a robber fill his bag of loot, I am guilty nevertheless? If I am so totally depraved as hyper-Calvinists seem to think, I therefore cannot help but to sin, therefore, by the natural law, how can I be guilty of sin? Answer: Obvious as the natural law tells all of us, one must deliberately choose to sin to be guilt of that sin. That takes free will of choice...

I also think those scripture quotes I gave you once again are important reading for all, including all Calvinists of what ever number they are...

Therefore, how can anyone really know if they were "saved to start with"? It also demonstrates that one cannot know if they are of the elect or not either.

Well, I agree with you (I think).

I think I agree again!

Now I am confused!

Do you believe that anyone can be assured of salvation, from this moment to the monent of their death, Bob?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christ has no body now but yours;
No hands, no feet on earth but yours,
Yours are the eyes with which he looks
Compassion on this world.
Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good.
Yours are the hands with which
he blesses all the world.
Christ has no body now on earth but yours.

- St. Therese of Avila -