OSAS and future sins?

"I say to you that we live in a world full of right and wrongs and if "others" differ in those obvious verses they are simply WRONG. "

Tell me where you are wrong Brian in your scriptural interprutations Brian? Are you an infallible interpruter? You interprutations make sense to you based on the tradition of OSAS being placed on the scriptures that cases OSAS to be seen in every verse. I can assure you I am just as sure of my interprutations, except in my case they are not mine but are influenced by 2000 years of Oral Tradition.

I think this line of discussion has run it's course and the results to me are clear. Trust not in your own understanding Brian. Prov 3:5. Look toward the shepherds God has placed on this earth.
Jer 3:15. I appreciate the discussion.

Blessings

 

Proverbs 3
1: My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
2: For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.
3: Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
4: So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
5: Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6: In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7: Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
8: It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
9: Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:
10: So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.
11: My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:
12: For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.
13: Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

Jer. 3
13: Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
14: Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
15: And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
16: And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
Thess. You continue to site one verse at a time, or parts of verses and they are out of context. I probably have done that myself but since it is bothering me that you do it I will try not to myself. Anyway, read the verses and see that they in no way help make your case or disprove mine. In fact most of what I included in Proverbs supports my view over yours, hands down. Thanks for keeping things civil, I enjoy our discussions as well. Take care,

In Christ,
Brian

 

Since the church in which I am a member in good standing Has its foundation in the Christ, and its head remains the Christ, It began when the Christ began, from before the foundation of the world.

Wow, that is the very question I was going to ask you. Do you suppose that by joining the Roman Catholic church I would have a better more secure place in Heaven? Do you suppose that by joining the Roman Catholic church that my life here on earth becomes a life more abundant? Do you suppose that by joining the Roman Catholic Church that eternal life could be more easily attainable?</font>[/QUOTE]Again, drop the "Roman" and keep the "Catholic Church" part and you will get the idea. And no, you have no more secure place in heaven then where you are now, if you do not sin and you continue in your sublime ignorance of the truth of the first and original Chruch of Christ. And besides, how do I really know? Only God can judge the heart, Yelsew.

If, however, you were to suddenly realize the truth of Holy Mother Church and you came into her, you would enjoy a fuller sacramental pool of grace that just very well increase your changes for achieving salvation at the moment of your death! But again, I do not know your heart...

Smoke rings waffing in the open air!

Or shall I sing, "smoke gets in your eyes"?

Yelsew, I sincerely hope and pray that this is indeed true in your individual case! I hope and pray that you do not stumble and fall away from your faith not one whit! I would rather you ramain in your present faith system then for me to sew the seeds of douht that would somehow cause to loose that faith.

And when I am in heaven, I will greet you at the big golden door St. Peter will open for you when you achieve the victory!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

"Anyway, read the verses and see that they in no way help make your case or disprove mine. "

Sorry Brian. I have read the who thing and a quite clear on what it says. That is why I also reffed Jer 3:15. Keep track of the word understanding. Jer 3:15 says that we are to get our knowledge and understanding from shepherds that the Lord will (has given) give us. Thus to trust in the Lord as spoken in Prov 3:5 (I knew how you would take that verse) is to trust in his shepherds that he has given us in Jer 3:15. Now you may say those shepherds were JUST (I do not deny the apostles are a subset of the shepherds and a significant one) the Apostles. Careful! I have researched that already also. It won't fly.

Blessings

 

OK, I was not sure! All I wanted was for you to quote me a little or use my name at the beginning so that I can be positive as to who is writing to me! That's all!

Was this the question?

Why would any one want to do all of those "bells and whistles" (the "works" you speak of) if one does not have faith?

If one does not have faith, why would they do them? I'm sorry to answer a question with a question, but the assertion my make does not make any sense at all!

Singer, let me add to your list:

The bible also does not talk about the Trinity, the Rapture, Wednesday night prayer meetings, let alone, Baptists, Assembly of God, or any of the other denominations, sects and cults that have sprung up since the 16th century.

Did you have an "indwelling of the holy Spirit," Singer? I am not doubting you, as I simply don't know. How do you know this is true in your case, rather then a manifestation of emotion that has you think this, is natural, actually. I also think I have had a similar "indwelling." at my baptism and at my confirmation, let alone when I was married and when I last received an anointing with holy oil. But I can't prove it. I think it happened to me out of pure faith, Singer. Now, having answered this, where are you going with this....................?

I know the story of Simon, Singer, and as a matter of fact, how do you know that Simon, having been attracted to the faith initially out of false pretenses, did not actually come to it in an honest way, only to later loose it once again? I have pondered this a lot (albeit I tend to believe that he was never ever saved, to be honest with you). The point is, we cannot judge the heart, only God can. Peter saw through him right away, and thus we all know "the rest of the story."

Anyway, is he a case of one who is the "false Christian"? I tent to think yes, he was, but we really do not know. Perhaps he was honest, wanted to become a Christian, was even baptized (it being valid only if the intentions to reform were there, which there may not have been) only, in his weakness, fall once again, perhaps not fully coming to the faith in Christ. I then think that "half way" saved in not saved.

Singer, I am so very happy you will give us even that!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages
call me blessed. (Luke 1:46-48)

 

Thanks Bill,
My faith in Jesus Christ is solid, I do not waver.

I may be the one who greets you, as I perceive we may be close in physical age, and with eternal life it will be difficult at best to ascertain who lives the longest. Besides, who cares?

I remember being at the docks greeting the returning troop ships of WWII.

 

I go back to those times as well. I still think you are younger then me, my being 74.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Almighty and eternal God, you gather
the scattered sheep

and watch over those
you have gathered.

Look kindly on all who follow Jesus,
your Son.

You have marked them
with the seal of one baptism,
now make them one
in the fullness of faith
and unite them in the bond of love.

We ask this through Christ our Lord.

Amen.

 

Bill P,

Why would any one want to do all of those "bells and whistles" (the "works" you speak of)
if one does not have faith?
You should be asking yourself "Why are all these works necessary WHEN I have faith ?
That's my question, Bill. Why DO them. (And I'm referring to these: liturgy,
prayers to Dead Saints, pilgrimages to Rome, daily treks to the church, confesssions
to other sinners, Monk Music, repetitous prayers and chants, payments to purgatory,
covenantal imaginations, child baptisms, assumptions of apostolic succession, Mass,
expectations of Mary's interventions and swelled heads over church affiliation........."

..............and then still refusing to claim the promises of Jesus that we can
know that we are saved !!

The point is that you claim all those bells and whistles things enhance our
chance at salvation, yet you refuse to claim that same salvation. Salvation is
a promise from God while your works are ''as filthy rags'' and vary from church
to church....man to man. You've convinced yourself that you HAVE to perform
those duties (even saying that missing Mass is a mortal sin) and yet will not claim
the promise of salvation.........making God out to be doubted.

The bible also does not talk about the Trinity, the Rapture, Wednesday night prayer
meetings, let alone, Baptists, Assembly of God, or any of the other denominations, sects
and cults that have sprung up since the 16th century.

I agree these are not necessary unto salvation along with the practices of Catholicism.
We do not even need to understand the mysteries of the bible for salvation to take place.
Salvation was handed out long before the bible was completed as you know. .....before
Catholicism.....before Christ died on the cross even. (And it was because
of faith).

Did you have an "indwelling of the holy Spirit," Singer? I am not doubting you, as I simply
don't know. How do you know this is true in your case, rather then a manifestation of
emotion that has you think this, is natural, actually. I also think I have had a similar
"indwelling." at my baptism and at my confirmation, let alone when I was married and
when I last received an anointing with holy oil. But I can't prove it. I think it happened to
me out of pure faith, Singer. Now, having answered this, where are you going with
this....................?

Bill, we have the witness within ourselves.
5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath
made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may
know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Yes, I know that I have the Holy Spirit because it was promised to all who have the Son.
(accept the Son), and yes I know:

1. That I have the witness because I believe on the name of the Son
2. That I know that I have eternal life (because I believe on the Son

You also said by faith you believe that you also are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
I agree with you that it came by faith in God's promise to provide it to whoever
believe in the Son of God as you do. So this is hardly a manifestation of emotion
as you suggest. It is rather called "Standing on the Promises of God our Saviour"

Where am I going with this?
No where else, my point is that faith in God's willingness to indwell us with the
spirit came upon us without the application of any works. The gift comes when
we receive Christ. Believing that Jesus rose from the dead qualifies us to be such
a receiver.

As for Simon, the story is not complete for us to even know his spiritual condition.
My reference to him was to shed light on the fact that the Holy Spirit can only
come by the reactions of God following our choice to confess and believe in "Him
whom He has sent". Baptism does not do it, church attendance either.

God is even faithful enough to allow Catholics to receive that in spite of
their other inclusions and additions to the Gospel..!!! (Singer)

Of course, because the rule applies to whosoever. He would not withhold the
Holy Spirit from Catholics based on their faith in the Risen Saviour, but in the same
light, He will not administer His Holy Spirit upon Catholics because of their
extracurricular activities (works). So you see we are all under the same covenant
if I may use that term.

 

For one who is prone to use the Scriptures in an allegorical way, attach symbols and various meanings to specific things in the Bible, you certainly have this one mixed up. In fact you even hint of accusing Christ of immorality if you think hard enough about this issue, for it is Christ who said that He will build HIS Church.
Yet you call "the church," the only one that exists in your mind, "the holy mother church." That smacks of blasphemy. Here is what the Word of God says:

Eph.5:
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

You picture the Church as a mother. Blasphemy! The church is pictured as a bride of which every Bible-believing Christian is a part of. There is no adulterous mother church that you speak of. There would have to be immorality for there to be a mother church. There is no marriage yet. The church is still the bride, betrothred to Christ. The marriage supper of the Lamb will take place in Heaven after the Rapture occurs, when Christ takes His bride to Himself. It is blasphemous to refer to the church as a mother. It infers spiritual immorality. However, that would not be uncommon when considering the past of the Roman Catholic Church.
DHK

 

For one who is prone to use the Scriptures in an allegorical way, attach symbols and various meanings to specific things in the Bible, you certainly have this one mixed up. In fact you even hint of accusing Christ of immorality if you think hard enough about this issue, for it is Christ who said that He will build HIS Church.
Yet you call "the church," the only one that exists in your mind, "the holy mother church." That smacks of blasphemy. Here is what the Word of God says:

Eph.5:
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

You picture the Church as a mother. Blasphemy! The church is pictured as a bride of which every Bible-believing Christian is a part of. There is no adulterous mother church that you speak of. There would have to be immorality for there to be a mother church. There is no marriage yet. The church is still the bride, betrothred to Christ. The marriage supper of the Lamb will take place in Heaven after the Rapture occurs, when Christ takes His bride to Himself. It is blasphemous to refer to the church as a mother. It infers spiritual immorality. However, that would not be uncommon when considering the past of the Roman Catholic Church.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]DHK, I am puzzled.

The title "Holy Mother Church" is nothing more then an affectionate title, just as I may use the feminine gender to describe my ship as in "She is a mighty warship" or similar phrase.

We love the Church like we love our own human mothers, DHK, and nothing more.

Sheeeeeesh!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

DHK,

Allow me to borrow your scripture and ramble a bit more.

Eph.5: 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the
church, and gave himself for it.

This says Christ loved the church and gave himself (on the cross) for it.
The Catholic Church didn't even exist yet when Christ presumably loved it.
He never once mentioned dying for the Catholic Church. What is recorded
is that God so loved the world (believers) that he gave his Son for that cause.


26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle,
or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Catholics would remind us that the people within the Catholic Church are sometimes
''yeeshish'' but that the church itself is pure, infallible, appointed etc. It verses 26 and
27 are referring to the Catholic Church, then it is implying that this physical
organization (not the people in it) is holy, without blemish, not spotted or wrinkled.

That is not a description of the Catholic Church as it has appeared throughout
history, and is definitely not the one we know today. It is admittingly run by a
pope who is called Holy yet confesses his sins weekly. I wonder what it is that
is supposed to be Holy..........the bricks in the walls of the Vatican, the hills it
sits on, the library that it has collected, the past popes who have murdered.....????

 

Singer, to claim an enhancement of our chances for salvation does not guarantee salvation!

No matter what I do, or how great a "saint" I am during my sojourn here on earth, I can still, by my own free will of choice, abandon that faith and return to a life of sin!

Have I not presented sufficient scriptural references to that situation already? Or shall I post them again for your reading pleasure once again?

I last said:

The bible also does not talk about the Trinity, the Rapture, Wednesday night prayer
meetings, let alone, Baptists, Assembly of God, or any of the other denominations, sects
and cults that have sprung up since the 16th century.

Looking for any vestige of agreement here, is this not about the same thing I have already said, that only God knows the heart at our death? It is true that a Catholic can be condemned to hell, whereas a non-Catholic Christian will go to heaven. Again, only God knows the condition of the heart that will either bring that sould to heaven to to everlasting condemnation in hell.

And thank you for agreeing that the bible is not formally the sole source for salvation, but rather can be the material source of such. (We did not discuss this, but I thought I would mention it.)

I last said:

Did you have an "indwelling of the holy Spirit," Singer? I am not doubting you, as I simply
don't know. How do you know this is true in your case, rather then a manifestation of
emotion that has you think this, is natural, actually. I also think I have had a similar
"indwelling." at my baptism and at my confirmation, let alone when I was married and
when I last received an anointing with holy oil. But I can't prove it. I think it happened to
me out of pure faith, Singer. Now, having answered this, where are you going with
this....................?

But is this quote saying that the holy Spirit "witnesses to you personally" as in you actually hear and feel his presence against thinking in your emotion that this has actually occurred? Again, I am not doubting you that it did indeed, occur. All I am saing is, one must be brutally honest when looking inward and making such claims of one's self. I honestly think and believe that this has happened to me, and I also believe that the holy
Spirit dwells in me as well, but I cannot say definitively that it has at every mement in time, especially in the times of temptation to sin once again. Was I in some kind of a super-euphoria, thinking the holy Spirit was in me, and then He went away when I was in a moment of doubt, depression and times of temptation?

There are times that I am convinced that the holy Spirit has come to me when I receive the Eucharist in communion, and other times, there is a "dry spell" of emotion in these times.

Have you ever gone to church and felt "dry in the spirit" when at other times, tears flow in your emotions on the occasion? I sure have? And the last time I felt this way was when I was anointed with holy chrism a week ago!

It was wonderful indeed!

I can say the same thing, Singer...

And I can agree with you here as well...

But why do I get this feeling when I do good works? I help a person in destress and I go away with a glow in my heart! Is that not a manifestation of what we must do as Christians, Singer? And I certainly agree that the "gift comes from Christ" when I come to believe in Him, which must include, I insist, the complete submission to His will, His doctrines, edicts and even to the reason He established His Church for our benefit when He ascended to the Father in heaven.

Just thought I would throw that in to get back to the thrust of what we were earlier talking about...

Would you agree that "baptism does it" if we seek it out of the fruits that it brings? And what if you continuously abstain from going to church, Singer? Are not all of these things important in that they keep the accumulation of all graces increasing in your heart?

I think you last said:

God is even faithful enough to allow Catholics to receive that in spite of
their other inclusions and additions to the Gospel..!!! (Singer)

Thank you for including us Catholic in the same covenant, and yes, that is an appropriate term - the new covenant of Christ!

I disagree that the Sacraments do not bring the holy Spirit as you imply here, since Christ established them for us for that very thing to happen. But that gets us off topic...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

B.Putnam,

You offered this in another thread:

"We have sinful men in the Catholic Church, sir, and we have had then in
every generation, starting with Judas! We have had our sinful popes,
bishops and priests throughout the history of the Church, including the scanda
l we have today. But that in and of itself does not negate the mission and the
holiness of the Church herself despite her sinful clergy.

Imagine those sinful popes you mentioned were at onetime hailed as "Holy Father"
to their worshipping members and they would have protected the image of those
popes to their dying day..............only to be realized that they were fooling themselves
now that we know those same popes were a scourge to history.

What is it that is Holy.............the belfry mouse ?

 

And now you get the picture of why such sinful popes, when condemned to hell at their death (assuming that they died unrepentant) would not assume the [lowest part of hell, next to Lucifer himself!

And if you were to open your eyes wider, you will see, in between these sinful popes, good and holy popes who are the very pillar of faith in their example!

Get the story of the last Pope canonized - Pope
Saint Pius X. a holier man you will find very hard to exceed in the grace of this man, one who would deny the "gift of healing" at the touch of his hand! Healing that became evident in his papacy, but pilgrems to came to him in audiences.

And believe me, he was no "Benny Hinn."

Holy men and women that are so evident in the history of the Church, Singer! But then that leads us into a discussion of the canonized saints that are so evident in church history, and my favorite is St. Bernadette of Lourdes.

She is an example of total humility which I often need...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


"Listen, my son, to what I tell you now. Do not be troubled,
nor disturbed by anything, nor pain, Are you not under my
shadow, my protection? And am I not life and health? Do
you need anything else? Do not be troubled, or take thought
of your uncle's illness, for he will not die of this seizure,
and is well even now"

What the vision of Our Lady of Guadalupe said to Juan Diego,
just before he discovered that his uncle was completely cured.

 

Addressed to Bill Putnam,

{b]Singer, to claim an enhancement of our chances for salvation does not guarantee salvation![/b]

Firstly, I disagree that your works even cause an enhancement and yes, of
course they don't guarantee salvation. Only ''having the Son'' guarantees that and you
should be hasty to claim that salvation if you are sure you have the Son.

No matter what I do, or how great a "saint" I am during my sojourn here
on earth, I can still, by my own free will of choice, abandon that faith and
return to a life of sin!

What happened to Jesus' promise to never let go of what the Father has
given him?

Looking for any vestige of agreement here, is this not about the
same thing I have already said, that only God knows the heart at our death?

Well I wasn't dwelling on who knows the heart, I was on another course in
saying that it isn't the things we know and do that gives us salvation; rather it
is simply belonging to Christ and that is obtained through "believing that He rose
from the dead" with the resultant "born again" status that guarantees us eternal life.

It is true that a Catholic can be condemned to hell, whereas a non-Catholic
Christian will go to heaven.

This brings up three questions .......
1. What is the benefit of being Catholic then ?
2. Will this Non-Catholic Christian enjoy the same heaven as the Catholic Christian?
3. Are you sure the Vatican would approve of your statement.

David Palm is quoted :

"The gist of the whole discussion of "no salvation outside the Church," , it
seems to me, is that the Church has perennially preserved two parallel truths;
(1) Those who through no fault of their own are ignorant of the necessity of
being visibly united to the Catholic Church may still be saved if they live
fully in light of the grace they have [a logical corrollary to this would be that
they are, in this case, in some kind of communion with the Catholic Church,
however imperfect] and (2) there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. "

Brother Ed has offered:

Let's understand something. The Catholic FAITH is the Faith which Christ
God gave to the apostles to give to the whole earth, NOT the heresies of
Protestantism and its multitudinous varients.

Yet you, Bill P. say that someone involved in the ''heresies of Protestantism"
can be saved...?

Carson Weber responded to the following question:
You asked, "How about if you reject the Catholic Church; are you still
saved?"[/b]

No, I would not be saved then because such a
rejection would be a grave sin. I would be
rejecting the family of God, which is essentially,
what I am saved for. We are saved from
sin and we are saved for inclusion into God's
covenant family.

Bill, where's your authority to include Protestants in salvation when your
counterparts do not agree with you?

And thank you for agreeing that the bible is not formally the sole
source for salvation, but rather can be the material source of such.

The bible is the sole source of instruction, but of course the bible itself has
no power to save....without application.

But is this quote saying that the holy Spirit "witnesses to you personally"
as in you actually hear and feel his presence against thinking in your
emotion that this has actually occurred?

Not emotion Bill, we take it by faith that we are born again and the new person
that evolves out of our old selves is proof.

Have you ever gone to church and felt "dry in the spirit" when at other times,
tears flow in your emotions on the occasion? I sure have? And the last time
I felt this way was when I was anointed with holy chrism a week ago!

Yes I have and that type of emotion should not be discounted by either of us.

But why do I get this feeling when I do good works? I help a person in
destress and I go away with a glow in my heart! Is that not a manifestation
of what we must do as Christians, Singer? And I certainly agree that the
"gift comes from Christ" when I come to believe in Him, which must include,
I insist, the complete submission to His will, His doctrines, edicts and even
to the reason He established His Church for our benefit when
He ascended to the Father in heaven

That's where Catholicism adds to the word of God, Bill.
The glow in your heart which is Christianity in Action and is spurred because
of your new spirit (being born again). Protestants have this same syndrome
in spite of their non affiliation with the Catholic Church.
___________________________________________________

Singer said : My reference to him was to shed light on the fact that the Holy Spirit can
only come by the reactions of God following our choice to confess and believe
in "Him whom He has sent". Baptism does not do it, church attendance either

You responded:
Would you agree that "baptism does it" if we seek it out of the fruits that it brings?
And what if you continuously abstain from going to church, Singer? Are not all of
these things important in that they keep the accumulation of all graces increasing in
your heart?

No I don't agree that baptism is the mechanics for the coming of the Holy Spirit.
As for my unchurched status, my faith has not waned for 27 years....God has
promised to keep us in his grips and that was not only promised to churchgoers.

Thank you for including us Catholic in the same covenant, and yes, that is
an appropriate term - the new covenant of Christ!

Of course Catholics were included in the same covenant because there
weren't any Catholics when the edit was proclaimed so how could they
have been included.? Salvation and the Spirit was offered to "whosoever".

I disagree that the Sacraments do not bring the holy Spirit as you imply
here, since Christ established them for us for that very thing to happen. But
that gets us off topic...

Yes we disagree on that; the Holy Spirit is not limited via bread and water.

Oh, and we get off topic often and we are both guilty of lengthy posts.

Singer

P.S. Oh, and I'm not even retired....see what the Holy Spirit does to us

 

Singer replied, where I last said:

Singer, to claim an enhancement of our chances for salvation does not guarantee salvation!

Define what "having the Son" is, Singer. Is it simple assent that you believe in Him, yet somehow do not quite go along with all He says, claims, and gives authority to, such as His church?

I last said:

No matter what I do, or how great a "saint" I am during my sojourn here
on earth, I can still, by my own free will of choice, abandon that faith and
return to a life of sin!

Nothing at all, Singer! God will live up to His promise and hang on tight, not let Satan or anyone else take us out of His hands! Did you notice that He is speaking of external forces, Singer? Satan is an external force and so are his minions.

What about you, Singer, an internal force, if by succumbing to the temptations to sin, eventually turn away from God, and actually take yourself out of God's hands? Satan didn't do it; he only tempted you to do it. You did it yourself!

Perhaps I should have used myself in these scenario, not you, knowing that I am subject to this temptation as well…

I last said:

Looking for any vestige of agreement here, is this not about the
same thing I have already said, that only God knows the heart at our death?

Faith is always the needed thing here, Singer, which brings us around again to the question: What is faith? By now, I think you certainly agree that it is not the simple acknowledgment that God exists (Like Satan and his minions do) but rather a depth of faith, which includes a deep love for God, as Jesus expressed and which I quoted in a previous message, that one most important commandment that we Love him with our whole heart, mind and strength (paraphrased.) Remember that, Singer? Is that not a good definition of how our faith must be that we are saved?

Go back and read that quote and see what I mean…

It is true that a Catholic can be condemned to hell, whereas a non-Catholic
Christian will go to heaven.

First of all, my statement above was intended to show the probable exception, not the norm. That is not to say that all Catholics will go to heaven or all non-Catholics go to hell. The benefits come from enjoying all of the attributes of the faith, attributes that are "tools" spiritual tools if you will, that will increase our chances for resisting Satan, and persevering to the end that results in salvation. Saying that, I also think that a Protestant can do likewise, but the Protestant, in my humble opinion, deprives himself of those spiritual tools that makes his efforts more easy, available, and with the advantage we Catholics have (Catholics that practice their faith; unfortunately many do not.)

I believe there is only one God, therefore there is only one heaven. When you are I are in heaven, we will not be wearing badges that say "Catholic" or "Baptist" or whatever on it.

Having done this for many years, I am sure I am in step with what the Vatican would say. There are other Catholics that would correct me in a heart beat if I were off-base, I think.

Indeed! And you, brother Singer, are also one of those "catholics"! What David quotes here is almost exactly what is seen in the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the subject. All Christians, in some manner, even while they may abhor the title, if they have an innocent heart in the Lord, are imperfect members of His Church, the Church we call "Catholic." (Capitalized)

But what bothers many of the brethren is, when we do get to heaven and if indeed, we all wore badges, me may find some that say "Hindu" or "Muslim" or another famous earthly religion system that nevertheless has them still brothers with Christ in that they obey the edicts of Christ and the essentials of the Ten Commandments! This is also in that same catechism, Singer! And while we are adamant in insisting that to come to Christ and His Church that is the true way for salvation, only God knows the heart of the individual, especially those who have never heard of Christ.

And I would agree with Brother Ed here!

But what of the individual, 1,000 times removed from Luther, Calvin or some of the multitude of so called reformers over the years that founded their denomination, sect or cult who believes in his heart that he has the gospel of Christ? In sublime ignorance and in good faith?

Some anti-Catholic individuals are quick to point-out the "anathema's" promulgated by the many church councils that have convened to fight against these heresies, thinking that it applies to them, today. It does not if you believe in that faith system in your heart.

Yep! I just did!

After having known the truth of the Catholic Church, her doctrines and her decrees, knowing that the Catholic Church comes from Christ, then to abandon that faith would have Carson committing the sin he is speaking of! But even here, if Carson were to do this, I cannot examine his heart to see if he is actually in a grave sin. I do not know of the stresses that may have caused him to abandon his faith (God forbid!)

I invite my counterparts to come here and state if they agree or not with what I have said already!

(Continued in next message)

 

(Continued from last message)

I last said:

And thank you for agreeing that the bible is not formally the sole
source for salvation, but rather can be the material source of such.

Awe, shucks! I knew it would not last!
Where was such "instruction and authority" after Pentecost and before the New Testament was written? Does that question ring a bell with you, Singer?

But is this quote saying that the holy Spirit "witnesses to you personally"
as in you actually hear and feel his presence against thinking in your
emotion that this has actually occurred?

That sounds exactly what I would say! The only caveat I would make is, it is "proof' of what I have become now, not what I might become next week, next month or next year…

It has been known that those who have put on "new selves in Christ" have returned to the world and put back on their "old selves" once again.

I last said:

Have you ever gone to church and felt "dry in the spirit" when at other times,
tears flow in your emotions on the occasion? I sure have? And the last time
I felt this way was when I was anointed with holy chrism a week ago!

By "discounted," I presume you mean that we persevere in the faith and not get discouraged. We agree here…

But why do I get this feeling when I do good works? I help a person in
distress and I go away with a glow in my heart! Is that not a manifestation
of what we must do as Christians, Singer? And I certainly agree that the
"gift comes from Christ" when I come to believe in Him, which must include,
I insist, the complete submission to His will, His doctrines, edicts and even
to the reason He established His Church for our benefit when
He ascended to the Father in heaven

Now isn't that wonderful that you experience the same emotions? It only goes to show you, you are not far from Christ's holy Church, Singer!

You previously said:

My reference to him was to shed light on the fact that the Holy Spirit can
only come by the reactions of God following our choice to confess and believe
in "Him whom He has sent". Baptism does not do it, church attendance either

And I previously replied:

Would you agree that "baptism does it" if we seek it out of the fruits that it brings?
And what if you continuously abstain from going to church, Singer? Are not all of
these things important in that they keep the accumulation of all graces increasing in
your heart?

Read John 3:5 very carefully and note the need for "water and spirit" that causes one to be "born again." Note also the aside that Peter makes when he explains that the water of the great flood, upon which eight were saved, is a prefigurement of baptism, "which saves you now" per 1 Peter 3:21.

But that takes us off-topic…

I last said:

Thank you for including us Catholic in the same covenant, and yes, that is
an appropriate term - the new covenant of Christ!

And this does not include the very "church" Christ founded in Matthew 16:18-19 with awesome authority?

I disagree that the Sacraments do not bring the holy Spirit as you imply
here, since Christ established them for us for that very thing to happen. But
that gets us off topic...

I agree, the holy Spirit is "not limited via bread and water;" He comes with the "bread of his own flesh" in holy Communion and He comes when the "water" is applied in baptism! He also comes in Confirmation, Ordination (Holy Orders), Matrimony, Reconciliation (John 20:22-23) and the application of Holy Oils (the "Last Rites" when we are sick or near death.

Yeppers! We sure do! And this reply will be no exception!

You noticed that to, huh!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

- Anima Christi -

Soul of Christ, sanctify me.
Body of Christ, save me.
Blood of Christ, inebriate me.
Water from the side of Christ, wash me.
Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
O good Jesus, hear me;
Within Thy wounds hide me and permit
me not to be separated from Thee.
From the Wicked Foe defend me.
And bid me to come to Thee,
That with Thy Saints I may praise Thee,
For ever and ever. Amen.

 

(Singer)

What is it that is Holy.............the belfry mouse ?

(Putnam)

Holy men and women that are so evident in the history of the Church, Singer!
But then that leads us into a discussion of the canonized saints that are so
evident in church history, and my favorite is St. Bernadette of Lourdes.


We've now reduced our search concerning "What is Holy" about the supposed
Holy Catholic Church down to a few men and women in its history.

We're sure it is not the bricks in the Vatican nor the hill that it sits on that
is holy. I think we agree that it is not the manifesto or the Nicean Creed that
is holy. There is no such thing as a holy building and it is tradition that all the
popes would sin and confess those sins, so I assume they were not holy.
Now we're down to a few saints....all that is left that presumably are holy.

Their being human, I just might have to contest that idea. The were surely
born into sin and may have received the Holy Spirit like Singer and Putnam,
but that didn't make us holy. Would their lifestyles have caused them to
receive that title..? I don't think that's possible. Godly and good men and
women do not take on the title of Holy in this day and age.

We have Holy God and we read a Holy bible because it is His Word.

What transpires that certain men and women (Catholic Only) become Holy ?
(Gosh, I'd think Billy Graham or Kathryn Kuhlman should qualify).

 

WPutnam,

You said, ' . . . and my favorite is St. Bernadette of Lourdes. She is an example of total humility which I often need...'

If you are praying to St. Bernadette of Lourdes you need to remember that the Holy Spirit is the one Who ministers to our spiritual needs and not a deceased saint who loved the Lord. If you somehow think that God the Spirit is on disability, He is not. He can still minister to our hearts and lives. John Wesley was a holy man too; maybe we together, should pray to him for assistance. Not really!

If we are dependent on God and pray to Him for our needs He will add to our lives humility. Remember, Jesus said, 'Blessed are the 'poor' of spirit; for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.' To be 'poor of spirit' means to be {a pauper before the Lord} or denoting {absolute or public mendicancy}. Dr. Strong's Concordance--In other words, we have to be so dependent on the Lord God that we come before Him with only our hands outstretched for His ministered grace and humility.

If you think you are going to get humility through St. Bernadette you are missing the ministry of the Holy Spirit in your life. These fruit of the Spirit that we all need as Christians come from God the Holy Spirit as noted in Galatians 5:22-25.

 

First of all, I never said that I "pray" to St. Bernardette! I do admire the woman for what she was, did, and recognized the extraordinary favors, God gave to her. But saying that, I am not adverse to ask her in prayer to pray for me before Almighty God. After all, if she is in heaven with Our Lord, she is highly favored, thus can be the excellant conduit for my prayers to God. That is not to say that I do not pray directly to God as well, as I certainly do.

And guess what, sir? I envoke the name of the holy Spirit as well? God is certainly not "lame"!

Duh! Sir, I am quite aware of the wonderful beatitudes of Our Lord quote well, and indeed, humnility is the main thought presented. And I strive to achieve it even in my prideful ways. And it sure helps to see how St. Bernardette manifested humility as well!

Sir, when I pray for humility, I get on my knees and ask for it from God; in His Divine Son through the influence of the holy Eucharist I take daily or as often as possible, and certainly starting out the day in prayer with my wife, the one soul who really teaches me humility!

But think you for your concern for my spiritual well being, sir. For you seem to have perceived that I am a sinner and fall short of the glory of God.

I need all the prayers I can get!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


- Anima Christi -

Soul of Christ, sanctify me.
Body of Christ, save me.
Blood of Christ, inebriate me.
Water from the side of Christ, wash me.
Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
O good Jesus, hear me;
Within Thy wounds hide me and permit
me not to be separated from Thee.
From the Wicked Foe defend me.
And bid me to come to Thee,
That with Thy Saints I may praise Thee,
For ever and ever. Amen.