Will Catholics Be "Left Behind"?

Like the horses, and the great red dragon, and the smoke that turns into locusts in Revelation the "sleeping souls under the altar" who wake up - complain and then are given white robes and told to go back to sleep (Rev 6 as you quoted above) -- are a symbol.

That is probably not the best place to make a point about literal activity in Heaven.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Well I have not posted much on this since the topic changed from the "left behind" subject.

But since DHK has posted such an enticing statement - I just couldn't resist... (Sorry.)

Is it your position that instead of the PERSON being asleep - IT really is the decaying corpse that is merely "sleeping"

- and if it is the corpse that sleeps in the dust - the corpse that is one that is "asleep" then in 1Thess 4 we would be reading "We do not want you to be unninformed about those who ARE asleep" they are rotting and turning to dust - but otherwise are doing well"??.

In John 11 "Our friend Lazarus is asleep I go that I may wake him" - is really a reference to Our friend, the body of Lazarus, - is sleeping"

"we shall not preceed those corpses that are ASLEEP in the ground" 1Thess 4.

Hmm you don't say??! .

In Matt 22 Christ is debating with one of the TWO (count them TWO) main branches of Judaism. In this case, the Sadducees Who DO NOT believe in an immortal soul, or a spirit or the resurrection. Christ AFFIRMS that part of their OWN OT based doctrine that states "God is NOT the God of the dead but of the living". Christ uses that point to prove that the only way God COULD be the God of Abraham at the time He was speaking to Moses - was for God to be looking at a FUTURE resurrection of Abraham (just as God called him the father of many nations while as yet he had no child of the promise).

Not only WAS this concept of death "known" we even have an extreme form of it both KNOWN and promomted by one of the key groups in the Bible - as we see in Matt 22.

Your point fails.

#1. No text says "immortal soul" or "man is immortal" or "man has an immortal soul" or "immortal soul of man" or "soul can not die" or "soul never dies" or .... But of course "we all knew that".

#2. So "no one will surely die"?? but instead "everyone will live on forever - like it or not"? Seems like I have heard that some place before.

You are making this too easy DHK

In Christ,

Bob

 

A "person" is body and spirit.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--At death the spirit separates from the body. The body sleeps. The spirit goes to be with the Lord (if one is saved). It is always the body that sleeps: whether it was the body of John Wycliffe who was burned at the stake and his ashes scattered at sea, or the corpse of the believer rotting six feet under--they sleep. The body sleeps waiting for the resurrection. The body is physically dead, but will one day be made alive. "Sleep" in this way is simply a synonym for death. It has nothing to do with soul or spirit.

The believers at Thessalonica were concerned about the fate of those that had already died in the light of the second coming of Christ. What would happen to them when Jesus would come again. Paul reassured them to not worry. "For the dead in Christ would rise first."

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Those that have already died are asleep. Don't worry about them. They which sleep, (are dead) will God bring with him. We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede those that have already died.

Sleep always refers to the body.
It is the body that is always resurrected.
Our friend Lazarus is asleep, i.e., he is dead.
I go to wake him, i.e. raise him from the dead.
One may speculate about Lazarus's spirit; but it is the body that was miraculously raised from the dead. It was the body that was sleeping.

The point does not fail at all. The Sadducees denied the resurrection (for they were Sad-U-see). A denial of the resurrection does not amount to the same as soul sleep or the annihilation of the wicked. You are speaking of apples and oranges.
Christ emphasized that He was the God of the living. Yes, Abraham, Moses, Jacob, etc. were now alive in Paradise. There was no soul sleep. They were alive, very much alive. If soul sleep were true, Christ would have been lying when he said that, for those patriarchs would not be alive they would be "sleeping," according to your theology.

(Rom 2:7 KJV) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

(1 Cor 15:53 KJV) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

#1.
(1 Cor 15:54 KJV) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

(2 Tim 1:10 KJV) But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

#2.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

I believe. Christ is my Saviour. Heaven is my future--as soon as I die, I will meet my Saviour unless Christ comes before then.

Until Then,
DHK

 

Prove from Scripture, that man has anything that is immortal.

 

Read the above post.

 

What BobRyan said, and, if I live to see the great time of persecution (I think I will) and I become a martry (I also think I will) then I hope, with ALL that is in me, that my fate will not be to be stuck under an altar in heaven waiting for the plagues to fall!

As Bob said, this is a symbol. Of what, I am not really that sure, just like the locusts, I don't know what those are, but I know for certain that if martrys are in heaven, they are NOT stuck under some altar being told to go back to sleep!

God Bless,
Kelly

 

So -- not the "person" but the "person's body"!

I get it.

Ahh then Christ and the disciples were "Friends with Lazarus's body" - not lazarus the PERSON - when they said-- "Our Friend Lazarus SLEEPS I go that I may wake HIM" John 11.

I get it. Friends with his body but not with Lazarus the person - according to you.

Here is how John 11 would be rewritten to fit your view --

Ah yes - but how would 1 Thess 4 be rewritten if it is no the "person" that sleeps - but the "person's body" that sleeps - always the "body" never the "person"?

What about 1Cor 15? Surely IT would not be rewritten as well would it?

Hmmm - absolutely fascinating.

In Christ,

Bob

[ June 25, 2003, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

You are simply wrong here.

Luke tells us that The Sadducees denied "Angels, spirit AND resurrection" and Matthew shows that they held firmly to "God is NOT the God of the dead".

You are simply misinformed about them. All scholars agree on this. Check it out DHK this part of the point has nothing to do with "Adventists".

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:
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DHK said -- Everyone will live on forever whether you like it or not. Man has an immortal soul.
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quote:Bob said -
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#1. No text says "immortal soul" or "man is immortal" or "man has an immortal soul" or "immortal soul of man" or "soul can not die" or "soul never dies" or .... But of course "we all knew that".

#2. So "no one will surely die"?? but instead "everyone will live on forever - like it or not"? Seems like I have heard that some place before.

You are making this too easy DHK
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Romans 2:5-13 is showing the "FUTURE" state in the future Judgment Vs 14-16 as Paul states.

It also ONLY gives that "reward" to the saved - the lost do not have "eternal life" according to the chapter. You stated "ALL men NOW have immortal souls".

Romans 2 does not work for your point.

This text makes the OPPOSITE point of "We ALL NOW have Immortalilty" - it claims instead that we are all now - MORTAL and that we must PUT ON immortality - but that is not until the future resurrection that 1Cor 15 identifies - again - this is another example of a text that does not say "mankind now has an immortal soul".

Recall your own statement please " Man has an immortal soul."

Again - a future event "THEN shall be brought to pass the saying..." WHEN the mortal shall have put on immortality - the future resurrection topic of 1Cor 15.

You 1Cor 15 text already showed that death is conquered in the that FUTURE event - and not before. Clearly we have light on that point through Christ - but we are not yet at that 1Cor 15 future point on which we have "that light".

And we have already seen how John 11 must be "rewritten" to make your case.

So far your own quote " Man has an immortal soul." stands alone.

And of course we do have "Mortal Man" and "God ALONE has immortality" in 1Tim 6. Maybe you need to look up the phrase "HAS immortality" or "has an immortal" and see what you find!

This is fun.


In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob said:

"this is fun"

Isn't it though? He used to be a better dancer, he must be tired or something.

 

Bob,
The above is the original unqualified statement. I have demostrated through Scripture that man, whether before or after the Resurrection is indeed immortal. It cannot be denied. He will live forever. "I am the resurrection and the life; whosever liveth and believeth and believeth in me shall never die, believest thou this?"
DHK

 

Rev.20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The beast and the false prophet are people. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever. These wicked people are immortal. There is no annihilation of the wicked here; only immortality of the wicke in the lake of fire.

Rev.20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Likewise if your name is not written in the Book of Life you will suffer the same fate as the devil, the beast, and false prophet. You will suffer an immortal death. You will live on in separation from God for all eternity in the lake of fire. That is immortality.
DHK

 

You are simply wrong here.

Luke tells us that The Sadducees denied "Angels, spirit AND resurrection" and Matthew shows that they held firmly to "God is NOT the God of the dead".

You are simply misinformed about them. All scholars agree on this. Check it out DHK this part of the point has nothing to do with "Adventists".

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]So what is your point Bob? By denying these doctrines, which I agree they did, does not prove that they believed in soul sleep. You have a long leap of faith to go yet.
DHK

 

Bob,
The above is the original unqualified statement. I have demostrated through Scripture that man, whether before or after the Resurrection is indeed immortal. It cannot be denied. He will live forever. "I am the resurrection and the life; whosever liveth and believeth and believeth in me shall never die, believest thou this?"
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]DHK,

That's not a statement. That is a request.

Here I'll make it a little more clear for you.

Can you show us a verse that undeniably proves that man has an immortal soul, or an immortal body, or anything else that is immortal RIGHT NOW?

Just one will do. You don't have to find a bunch. Just show us ONE verse that says that man is immortal RIGHT NOW.

Thanks

 

I have to hand it to you DHK - you stick with your argument no matter what the facts and here - you do it again.

Are you open to using study Bibles? Pershaps the NIV or NKJV?

Will you accept any data on this point?

The blatantly obvious point that they held firmly to "God is NOT the God of the dead" (Matt 22) does not seem to hit home with you.

The fact that THIS POINT ALONE was used as proof of the resurrection - because ONLY by the resurrection COULD God's statement to Moses be correct (based on the logic Christ is using) AFTER the death of Abraham - also does not seem to hit home with you.

You have apparently missed the entire discussion of Matt 22 - which EVEN the Sadduccess got - and it was so blatant that the Pharisees (who had been debating the Sadducees on this very point forever) recognized that complete defeat of the Sadducees because Christ used THEIR OWN doctrinal view of the state of the dead to PROVE the resurrection.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Matt 22:

23 On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Jesus and questioned Him,

Here we have hostile interviewer that does not believe in the doctrine of the resurrection - this is one of the few times in scripture
where Christ debates a point directly without side-stepping the debate in order to foil the bad guys. First the bad boys setup the
question in a way that they suppose will "silence Jesus" with an unanswerable dilemma.

Like all good debaters - they start of assuming Christ's position - that there IS a resurrection of the dead. Their objective is to
show that using his own view - the problem is not solvable and so He is in error.


24 asking, ""Teacher, Moses said, " IF A MAN DIES HAVING NO CHILDREN, HIS BROTHER AS NEXT OF KIN SHALL MARRY HIS WIFE, AND RAISE UP CHILDREN FOR HIS BROTHER.'
25 ""Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother;
26 so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh.
27 ""Last of all, the woman died.
28 ""In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had married her.''
29 But Jesus answered and said to them, ""You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.

In this one case Christ puts them off by getting to the heart of their real problem - not knowing the scriptures OR the Power of God.

30 ""For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Step one - He solves their riddle and explains that the only reason it was a riddle to them - is that they did not know the Bible
as well as they thought they did. His solution is IN the details regarding resurrected saints - not dead ones.

Step two Christ choose to debate head-on. He returns the favor - showing that using THEIR one view – using the Truth that they Still have - they should know that the resurrection is a sound Biblical doctrine. So like all good debaters - he begins by telling them what he is going to prove and then starts off with common ground.

31 ""But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God:
32 " I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB'?

They can hardly deny this point. God makes this statement to Moses in the land of Midian long after Abraham, Isaac
and Jacob have died - but BEFORE they are resurrected - Exodus 3:6.

They would rather die than deny this premise to Christ's "proof". But this is the one-two punch for proving the resurrection
and here comes the other shoe - dropping.

32 He is not the God of the dead but of the living.''

Here again - they would rather die than deny this second part of Christ's proof. As Luke tells us they deny there is a spirit, they deny Angels exist they deny that there is such a thing as the resurrection. (Acts 23:8) The very HEART of their argument is that NO relationships – NO life beyond this one is possible since it would be too complicated to work out the various complexities carried forward from THIS life.

And so Christ (the ultimate debater) presents them with a dilemma whose only solution is "the Resurrection". He leaves them with NO escape since by their OWN reasoning God is NOT the God of the Dead. Once Abraham died – God was NOT the God of Abraham any longer – EXCEPT by virtue of the fact of a future resurrection which was the ONLY solution they had for the puzzle. And indeed Christ told them at the start that He would show them a problem for which they HAD to conclude “the resurrection” to solve it.

But "both" parts of his premise must be true to conclude that the "only solution" is the resurrection. Part-A that God is NOT the God of the Dead and Part-B that God DID say He was the God of Abraham when speaking to Moses long AFTER Abraham died.

33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.
34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together.

Now this is really interesting because it shows that the proof was obvious to the entire crowd. Even the Pharisees could see
that Christ had "silenced" the Sadducees by this devastating proof. Christ's argument is brilliant - but it only works if you
believe both parts of His premise.

In Christ,

bob

 

There are those who quickly solve the puzzle Christ gave to the Sadducees "another way". They argue "Christ is the God of Abraham because Abrahm is alive while dead - even without the resurrection".

The problem with that view is -
A. that is NOT the view of the Sadducees so they would not have jumped to that conclusion.
B. That "exit" can be taken without forcing the Sadducees to accept the Resurrection as the only escape.

The obvious fact is - there is only ONE way Christ's argument works as "Proof of the Resurrection". Only ONE view of the dead works there.

In Christ,

Bob

 

He has posted it already - I believe it was " Man HAS an immortal Soul like it or not".

Which was right to the point.

In Christ,

Bob

 

"God is not the God of the dead; but of the living." He is not he God of the spiritually dead, but rather the spiritually alive. It was Abraham that was and is alive spiritually as opposed to Abimilech or Pharaoh that were dead spiritually. Abrahahm's spirit lived on in Paradise as witnessed by Lazarus and the rich man. Pharaoh's spirit lived and continues to live on in Hell, and will face his final sentencing at the Great White Throne Judgement, where he will be cast in the lake of fire and be tormented day nad night forever and ever, as the Bible says.

Abraham will be resurrurected in the resurrection of the just.
Pharaoh will be resurrected in the resurrection of the unjust (just over a thousand years later).
God is the God of the living. The spiritual living, not the spiritual dead, nor the immortal dead that will be cast into the lake of fire.
The Saduccess did not believe in the spirit or the resurrection. Jesus made a case for them both. There is a spirit that lives on. There is a body that will be resurrceted.
DHK

 

Rev.20:10,15