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Order of Events in Revelation

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Mel Miller, Mar 28, 2006.

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  1. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Friends,

    No one enters the Temple in heaven until the
    last plague empties in the air! Rev.15:8.

    God's wrath is first announced from the Temple.

    The smoke of God's glory and power clears the
    temple as soon as the last Martyr is killed and they sing the victory song of Moses. Rev.15:2-5.

    They sing before God seated on a throne ablaze
    with fire positioned on a crystal river/sea
    mixed with fire and then they enter the Temple.

    Rev.15:5 and Rev.7:9 occur at the same moment!!
    The scene changes from the river/sea of fire to
    the Drama in the Temple where they stand before God and the Lamb for the first time!

    A Three-Act Drama begins with praising God and the Lamb and with an elder wondering who these multitudes are and whence they came. Rev.7:9-17.

    The 2nd Act sees all the saints in the Temple
    presenting their prayers to God after a half
    hour of observing what had already occurred in
    six of the seven Trumpet judgments on earth.
    Six Trumpets are "played back" within 1/2 hour
    during the 7th Seal. Rev.8:1-5. The description
    follows as this is John's methadology.

    The 7th Trumpet does not sound until the Angel
    of Fire renders the Court's Verdict in Seal 7.
    This is the Day of Wrath; but only the 7th Trumpet signals the "appointed (kairos) time for wrath has come". Rev.11:18.

    The 7th Trumpet is also the only appointed time
    for Resurrection and Rewards to the prophets and saints and all who fear God; but also for God's Retribution upon the wicked seeking to destroy the earth. Rev.11:18.

    Therefore, with the Armies already gathered to
    the Armageddon for the "great supper of God",
    we insert the events of Seal 6 and 7 between
    Plague #6 and the 7th Trumpet on the Day of
    God's wrath with Seal Six's calamities and warnings causing men's hearts to fail at the impending wrath. These calamities continue from Noon to Twilight. Amos 8:9; Zech.14:6-7.

    The Last Trump cannot sound until the Court
    of Seal 7 and Dan.7 sits in judgment. The
    7th Trumpet sounds for Christ's Coronation
    and, as soon as "heaven and the saints and
    apostles and prophets rejoice" and learn the
    Lamb's wedding has come, "heaven opens and
    Christ descends.

    He "gathers the elect" at the 2nd sound of the Last Trump and "sends the angels" at the 3rd sound of the Last Trump to finish the "gathering of all the Saints unto Jesus at the Synagogue" in the Sky! Rev.18:20-Rev.19:10; Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31; 2 Thess.2:1; 2 Thess.1:7-10.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
    #61 Mel Miller, May 27, 2006
  2. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    You are right to a point Mel, for the trumpets are in the seals, as are the vials.

    This is all very interesting, but we of the rapture before tribulation don't really need to be concerned with this, other than try to comfort those that will be comforted in knowing they will not see the "wrath" of God, which is what the "great tribulation" is.

    Christian faith, ituttut
     
    #62 ituttut, May 29, 2006
  3. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    ituttut,
    Quote:
    ______________________________________________________________
    This is all very interesting, but we of the rapture before tribulation don't really need to be concerned with this, other than try to comfort those that will be comforted in knowing they will not see the "wrath" of God, which is what the "great tribulation" is.
    ______________________________________________________________

    You are assuming the great tribulation is a time of God's wrath.

    The "Day of Wrath" begins with Seal Six AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION.
    God's Wrath itself does not occur until the 7th Trumpet sounds for the first of
    three times on the Day Christ comes in glory.:thumbsup:

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
    #63 Mel Miller, May 29, 2006
  4. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    I believe scripture says the "rapture" then tribulation". His wrath causes catastrophic events .

    That "day" of the Lord is seven years. Jesus lived in His "day" on this earth, and that "day" of the Lord begins when the man of sin becomes known, which is at our "rapture".
     
    #64 ituttut, May 31, 2006
  5. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    ituttut,
    Once again, my friend, you fail to "back-up" your theories that One Day equals 7 years OR that tribulation equals "God’s wrath". When Jesus gave the "signs" of the Day He comes in glory, He did not even hint that it would last for 7 years. That is pure speculation based on the theory that God must STOP dealing with the Church before He can begin the "purging and restoration" of His former people which is limited to 1290 days; NOT to 7 years. Dan.12:10-11; Rev.12:10-11.

    This misconception that God’s "wrath" begins prior to the 12-Hour-Day for which Christ gives the immediate signs (i.e., in the sun, moon and stars with men’s hearts failing from fear) is based on the Gnostic teaching (from Plato) that God cannot be made subject to the fluctuations and "perturbations of human anger".

    All Bible translations, except the New Jerusalem Bible, reflect the Platonic view of early Church Fathers that THUMOS must not be attributed to God. For that reason, modern translations follow the Gnostic principle that God is too exalted to be accused of human "anger". Origen admitted that anger (thumos) rises and falls but God’s "wrath" (orgay) alone brings eternal punishment!

    Because of the Gnostic influence to this day, even the NKJV never once translates the Greek word THUMOS as "anger"; not even when thumos and orgay occur in the same verse as in Rev.14:10; Rev.16:19; Rev.19:15. It translates thumos as "indignation, fierceness or wrath".

    The significance of "anger being mixed full strength with wrath at the appointed time for Wrath" (Rev.11:18) is lost in the mis-translations. We need to realize that the Latin word "longsuffering" is a translation of the Greek word "long-anger". God’s anger (pataience) will be "completed (exhausted) in the Plagues" and only then will that Anger mix with His Wrath and be poured out on all mankind! Rev.15:1; Rev.16:19-21.

    God’s wrath does not begin until the Day the Son of Man "reaps the wicked into the winepress of God great anger" (macroTHUMOS; Rev.14:20) and pours that anger (thumos) into His Cup of Wrath (orgay; Rev.14:10; Rev.16:19) as soon as the 7th Trumpet sounds that "God’s wrath has come" ON THE DAY CHRIST COMES IN GLORY! For only then do we find His anger and wrath combined to
    "tread the winepress at the appointed time to destroy the destroyers of earth"! Rev.11:18; Rev.19:15. This is the HOUR of Trial as God’s Anger and Wrath fulfill Rev.16:19-21.

    What scripture do you offer to support a 7-Year Day of God’s wrath and/or to prove God's wrath (orgay) begins before the End of the Tribulation?? Remember that "no believer has been or will be appointed to God's wrath"!!!!:thumbs:

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
    #65 Mel Miller, May 31, 2006
  6. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Please step back and look at what you just said Mel. You have just described yourself, and not me at being a "Gnostic".

    Mel, you and I probably believe the same thing as far as "no one in the Body of Christ has been appointed to God's wrath". What you don't see is those not in the Body of Christ, those that will not be "raptured", will go into "that time" of the awful judgments of "that" great tribulation period. Tribulation has "wrath" in it.

    I'm beginning to see what you may be saying. It looks to be you have only one egg in your basket. Are you saying as in Isaiah 13:9 you believe the One "day of the Lord" is the beginning of His "wrath" and the ending? "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it." If so you have isolated yourself to only "one" subject within the "tribulation". Not only does the Lord come in His wrath, but also with "fierce anger". What you speak of is only "Israel". It has nothing at all to do with you or me, or anyone today in the Body of Christ.

    Those that are in the "tribulation will feel His wrath", but it is His Nation Israel that His "fierce anger" is pointed to in a specific time - Ezekiel 37:17-19, "Thus saith the Lord God; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
    18. And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face.
    19. For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel."

    As said before, Revelation is a Book written to and for the Jew, those of Israel, the people of God, and the nation He made for himself. Today God does not recognize a nation of Israel, even though man does, for God is not dealing specifically with them. It is coming and in His "wrath", in "that day" He will couple it with His "fierce anger" and it is directed at the "land of Israel".

    The "last days" of those days begins when we are taken up. Today is when "this dispensation of God is reconciling the world unto Himself" and when it ends, then His "wrath" begins. It begins and waxes hotter each step of the way, and in that "Day of the Lord" is contained in the "last days". And also in the "last days of the Days of the Lord" is the millennium, Isaiah 2:2, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it", and as also found in Micah 4:1

    We know where the "last days" end, for time will be no more, but where do they start? The "last days" have all to do with God's nation, Israel. The "last days" began at Pentecost according to Paul referencing Joel. But Peter being filled with the Holy Ghost knew only what God allowed at that time. Prophecy was being fulfilled. But unknown to Peter was the coming event at Damascus Road. The event of Christ Jesus appointing His Apostle to the Gentile, and the Jew, for the purpose making known the "Body of Christ", to be in the "kingdom of heaven". Before Revelation, we will be in Christ Jesus "kingdom of heaven" before the "kingdom" of "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
    10. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
    11. Give us this day our daily bread.
    12. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
    13. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."

    Would you and others please look at this prayer? Is the prayer of a Christian, one in the "Body of Christ"? If any believe it is, then will you not go into the "tribulation", for this is the prayer for those that will be in the tribulation.

    Mel, you are working from a single premise not understanding the "last days" of prophecy, and what is contained therein.
     
    #66 ituttut, Jun 4, 2006
  7. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    ituttut,

    I repeat the request:

    "What scripture do you offer to support a 7-Year Day of God’s wrath and/or to prove God's wrath (orgay) begins before the End of the Tribulation?? Remember that "no believer has been or will be appointed to God's wrath"!!!!

    Jesus said that all the wicked will be destroyed on the same Day He comes with
    "signs in the sun, moon and stars"! Luke 17:27-30.

    You can keep denying His word all you want. It doesn't change His word!!

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
    #67 Mel Miller, Jun 4, 2006
  8. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    #68 ituttut, Jun 6, 2006
  9. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    ituttut,

    This thread is about the "Order of Events" in Revelation.
    According to your opening statement "one will be taken and one left" at the rapture which you claim is 7 years before Christ’s second coming to the earth. And you still have given no case for seven years of God’s wrath.

    Finally, near the close of your post, you admit the truth as to what Jesus taught:
    Quote:
    ____________________________________________________________________________
    I've never denied believing Luke 17:27-30. Christ Jesus has revealed Himself to we in the Body of Christ, and He will "catch us up to Him" (as He said on the Day He is revealed to all men). At His second coming to this earth when every eye shall see Him, those that do not know Him will be introduced to Him at that time. One will be taken, and one will go into the "millennium kingdom"
    _____________________________________________________________________________

    The day Jesus "raises up every believer and gathers the elect from earth to heaven" IS the same day "one will be taken and one left" as stated in Luke 17:27-30. It is the only time Jesus spoke of the Day of His Apocalypse. Luke 17:30. You not only teach two "last days" and two "1st resurrections" and two "comings" of Christ and two "last trumps" and two "gospels" and two separate "peoples chosen of God during this Age of Grace", but you also teach two separate times for "one to be taken and one left" ... separated by 7 years!!!!

    There’s no continuity in your "order" of events. Too many things occur "twice" to make any sense or to present a logical sequence for the order of events in
    Revelation. You admit "one is taken and one left after the great tribulation" and say
    it also happens at the rapture 7 years earlier!! Then you contradict yourself by
    saying Prophecy in the Book of Revelation is not meant for the Church! :praying:

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
    #69 Mel Miller, Jun 6, 2006
  10. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    You will find in Revelation 4 the beginning of His judgment. As informed before in scripture, which you refuse to believe, His wrath is coupled in that Day with His "fierce anger".
    That's old hat. I've always taught this for it is what scripture tells us.
    You endeavor to fit "we in the Body of Christ" that are taken before the tribulation period where you want us, but we will not fit into the "kingdom that was at hand" gospel. We are separated to the Body of Christ Jesus gospel of "rapture", and not entering into the "kingdom gospel" from this earth by way of the "tribulation".

    We today are not promised the earth, but guaranteed Christ Jesus.
    This is as it should be, for we are not in the "order of events". However you ignore the correct order of events I presented.
    You misread my posts, as you do scripture. Where do these two come from? The two go into the 7 year tribulation period as the "rapture" occurs and as the tribulation ends one will be taken, and one will go into the kingdom.The two that go into the "tribulation period" are now in prophecy, for they did not go with those not in prophecy. Now you see us, and then you don't. We are His inheritance, and He will grab us up.
     
    #70 ituttut, Jun 7, 2006
  11. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    ituttut,

    I. Revelation's basic premise concerning the Last Day is that:

    "No one enters the Temple in heaven until the last plague empties in the air"!
    Rev.15:8.

    II. At the only Great and Wonderful Sign in Revelation:

    The smoke of God's glory and power clears the temple as soon as the last Martyr is killed and they sing the victory song of Moses. Rev.15:1-5.

    III. The events of Seal 6 and 7 occur between Plague #6 and the 7th Trumpet on the "Day" of God's wrath as Seal Six's calamities and warnings cause men's hearts to fail at the impending wrath coming during the "Hour of Trial". These calamities and Gods wrath are fulfilled between Noon and Twilight. Amos 8:9; Zech.14:6-7.

    IV. Christ is crowned at the first sound of the Last Trump (7th Trumpet) because
    "God's (Hour of) Wrath has come; the appointed time (for Resurrection) to judge the dead, Reward the Prophets and Saints and all who fear God, both small and great", and the appointed time to "destroy the destroyers of earth". Rev.11:15-18.

    V. At the 2nd sound of the Last Trump, "heaven opens" and Jesus descends and "raises up every believer and gathers them from earth to heaven" and at the 3rd sound of the Last Trump He "sends the angels" to finish "gathering all the Saints unto Himself at the Synagogue" in the Sky! Then He avenges the Elect. Rev.19:10; I Thess.4:16; Jno.6:38-40; Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31; 2 Thess.2:1; 2 Thess.1:7-10.

    All this, and more, happens on the "Day of Christ's apocalypse"! Luke 17:27-30.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net Click on "Centerpiece"
     
    #71 Mel Miller, Jun 10, 2006
  12. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Mel you are in prophecy. Locate Christ Jesus and mark the spot and say "You Are Now Here" for we go where He goes - Romans 8:1, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Do you claim to be in the Body of Christ? If so how can you be down here after the rapture? We are "up there" with Him, and not "down here".

    The now in verse 22 has not come. Peace cannot come to this earth until after the rapture, and prophecy is fulfilled in the "tribulation period", and Jesus returns to this earth as King, of whom we became One with before His return. We are His Now, not waiting for that "kingdom that was at hand", and is to come.

    As we continue to read (verse 23) we find we are "firstfruits" (we go in that first picking) of the Spirit, in this case called the "rapture", allowing the Tribulation to come. Along the way we notice that we are "in the Spirit", and will bodily be conformed in His image. We will be the image of Him, the "first born".

    There are other "firstfruits" as shown in Revelation 14:4, but they are of the "tribulation" to God and to the Lamb. Those 144,000 are of God's people, and are of the "Law and the Prophets" associated with the Lamb. We are not of those "firstfruits" of the Lamb, but the "firstfruits" of the Body of Christ "after His slaughter as the Lamb", and have been redeemed at the Cross from the "curse of the Law" (Galatians 3:13). Those before the "Cross" could not be redeemed while they lived without the Law, and without making "blood sacrifices". They are of the Lamb of Prophecy, as are those in the "tribulation", for as the Lamb He said they are the ones He came far.
    Yes, those under the Law of Moses, and the Prophets will sing that victory song. We see this in Exodus, and there were no Gentiles singing that song. We cannot just decide we are going to become Jewish. We can try, but if we do we are to be circumcised, follow all the "ordinances" of those under the Law, and do "blood sacrifices". Today we (both Jew and Gentile) go to the "Cross" where sacrifice was made for we in His Body.
    Aren't you off on your time frame? Doesn't Amos 8:9 point to the Cross? It was dark from noon until 3P.M.
    Verse 17 disallows what you say. "……….which art, and wast, and art to come………….." The vials are yet to come. Your theory just cannot hold up.
    You make the mistake of the post millennist of not making distinction between the "Body of Christ Church", and the "Kingdom Church. You cannot take Paul's gospel and apply it to the gospel for the Jew. They are two separate gospels. Paul is the Apostle to the Gentile and the Jew, and his is One gospel for both in this dispensation.

    Try reading Isaiah 13 about the "day of the Lord" both with wrath and great anger. The tribulation is about "Jacob's troubles", and the One day you talk about is on the "land", the Jewish land. Can you read the rest of verse 13 and say that is "One hour", or "One day"? This is all in the Tribulation period.
    Yes these verses, and on into verse 34-36, shows us what I have informed before. At the "rapture" comes the "tribulation". He could come today, just as in the days of Noah, we are eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. The one in the Body of Christ would be taken, and one would be left to go into "tribulation period". In the tribulation is the "day of the Lord" and "thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed."

    Are you comforted by the words of Christ from heaven He gave to Paul that you'll not go through the tribulation?
     
    #72 ituttut, Jun 11, 2006
  13. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Friends,
    Here is a question sent to me and my response:

    Mel,
    In your eschatological framework how do you view the 7 seals of Revelation? I have heard a myriad of sequential timelines and am just curious as to yours......I know some view them covering the whole tribulation, some just the great tribulation, others just a short sequence of time followed by the trumpets and vials......
    Furthermore, do you feel the trumpets and vials occur at the same time or are they sequential?

    My Response,

    The 6th and 7th Seals are fulfilled on one of the days “after the great tribulation”. Rev.6:12 to 8:5. The Last Plague empties in the air immediately before the Lamb opens Seal Six on the Lastday.

    This is supported by comparing the signs and warnings of Seal Six with Matt. 24:27-41 and Luke 17:24-37 and Rev.19:15-21 where Christ comes to destroy the wicked only at the time when all the birds are summoned to the “great supper of God”. The mention of the gathering of eagles occurs in each of these texts.

    At the time prior to the Feast of Tabernacles each year (First two weeks of Tishri) the Israeli Government estimates that 35 species of (500 Million) birds fly over the narrow corridor of Israel. This includes pelicans, stork, cranes and three kinds of eagles. On Oct.8 of 2005, 30,000 birds flew over Jerusalem on their way to wintering grounds in Africa. Over one hundred birds have radio transmitters attached to them so as to track their flights.

    Tishri 15 (which is always within one or two days of the full moon in September or October and is required for Seal 6 to be fulfilled; Rev.6:12; NASB), fixes the time of year for the “Ingathering of the Harvest” at the same time as the Armageddon slaughter when Jesus promises to “come as a thief” and fulfill Zech.14:16 at the Feast of Tabernacles. Zechariah 14:9 puts this Feast on the Day Christ becomes "King of the entire earth" (at 7th Trumpet; Rev.11:15-17; Dan.7:14). Jesus promises to come as a thief on that day. Rev.16:15.

    This agrees with Jesus that “no one can know the exact Day or Hour" in advance of having seen the signs of Seal Six nor in advance of the Sign of His appearance. The warnings of Seal Six continue during the Tribunal of Seal Seven!!

    During the calamities of Seal Six, the 7th Seal will open for the Tribunal in heaven and then the 7th Trumpet will sound for the 7th Plague to implode with the consequences of God's "Cup of anger and wrath". Rev.16:18-21. This means Seals 6 and 7 occur between the 6th and 7th Trumpets ... while the 7th Plague suspends in the air!

    It all happens at heaven’s only proclamation that "God's wrath has come and the appointed (kairos) time to:

    I. “Judge the dead" (in Christ which requires the Resurrection of all believers)

    II. "Reward the prophets and saints and all who fear God, from the least to the greatest" (requiring the gathering of all the saints)

    III. Execute Retribution by "destroying earth’s destroyers” gathered to Armageddon on that same day. The birds will be "gathered at the same time for the supper of God Almighty". Rev.11:18; Rev.19:15-21.

    That’s why I believe the Day of Wrath is no more than a 12-Hour Solar Day when “God brings the souls of the dead in Christ with Him” in order to fulfill the above on the same day the “sun turns dark at NOON and the light returns at twilight”. Amos 8:9; Zech.14:6-7. :praise:

    Mel at http://lastday.net
     
    #73 Mel Miller, Jun 16, 2006
  14. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Are you starting a new post here Mel? If so may I ask where you are during this period of time? Do you believe scripture, that we will be "caught up to Him in the air" before these events come about?
     
    #74 ituttut, Jun 17, 2006
  15. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    ituttut,
    Indeed, I am "in prophecy" as you and Jesus describe and so I agree with some of your following points ... except for the timing.

    Your Quote:
    ___________________________________________________________________________
    Do you claim to be in the Body of Christ? If so how can you be down here at the rapture? We are "up there" with Him, and not "down here".
    ___________________________________________________________________________
    AMEN!!
    None of us in the Body of Christ will be "down here" when we are "caught up and gathered together above on the last day" by Jesus at the 2nd and 3rd soundings of the 7th Trumpet. Mark 13:27; I Thess.4:17; Matt.24:31. We will be "in prophecy" on the Day Christ promised to resurrect "all believers (John 6:38-40); the day He comes to reward every believer (Matt.16:27; Rev.22:12; Rev.11:18); the day He comes to destroy earth’s destroyers (Rev.11:18); the very day He avenges all those beheaded by the Beast and who live again in the first resurrection ... along with Daniel". Rev.20:4-5; Dan.7:27; Dan.12:2,13.

    Your timing is off !

    Your Quote:
    ____________________________________________________________________________
    Peace cannot come to this earth until after the rapture, and prophecy is fulfilled in the "tribulation period", and Jesus returns to this earth as King, of whom we became One with before His return. We are His Now, not waiting for that "kingdom that was at hand", and is to come.
    _____________________________________________________________________________
    AMEN!!

    Peace comes after the "tribulation period" when "chronos-time (delay) is no longer and the 7th Trumpet is about to sound because the 7 last plagues have "completed (exhausted) God’s patience" (thumos; anger). Only after the last Plague empties do the Martyrs enter the Temple and learn that God’s wrath "has come" and the appointed time for their reward to "reign with Christ in heaven and to serve God as Pillars in the temple of heaven for 1000 years". Rev.3:12; Rev.7:14-17.

    Of course, we are not waiting for that "kingdom that was at hand". We are waiting for the Power and Manifestation of that Kingdom for 1260 days after which "some standing there will still taste death" for up to 3½ days until Christ is crowned at the 7th Trumpet and He takes the Kingdoms of this world as His own...and the Beast persecutes the Saints no more. Mark 9:1; Rev.12:10-11; Dan.12:10-11; Rev.11:15-17; Dan.7:14-27.

    Your timing is off !!

    Your Quote:
    _____________________________________________________________________________
    They (the 144,000) are of the Lamb of Prophecy, as are those in the "tribulation", for as the Lamb He said they are the ones He came far.
    _____________________________________________________________________________
    Does that prove they are NOT "caught up to heaven" on the last day to fulfill the word of the Lord that "He will raise up ALL believers on the Last Day"??? NO, OF COURSE NOT.

    The 144,000 will "follow the Lamb wherever He goes". He rescues them after the Beast of Rev.13 kills the last Martyr that he will be allowed to kill. Rev.6:11. He takes the 144,000 to heaven on the last day, in Rev.14; right after the 1260-day rule of the Beast ends in Rev.13. They join these Martyrs to sing their song of the Lamb in Rev.15:1-4 and Dan.7:13 and "present the Son of Man to the Ancient of Days seated on a sea/river of fire" moments before the Temple opens in heaven at Rev.15:5 and Rev.7:9 to 8:5 and Rev.11:15-19 where the "temple was open"!!!.

    "No one enters the Temple until the last (7th) Plague empties in the air" and the smoke of God’s glory and power clears the Temple. Rev.15:8. The Day has come (after the last Plague empties and after the last one dies who must "taste death" to be purified and refined; Mark 9:1; Rev.12:10-11; Dan.12:10-11). He comes to avenge these Martyrs when He raises them up in the "first resurrection". Rev.11:18; Rev.20:4-5.

    Your timing is off by 3½ years; actually by seven years !!!


    Your Quote:
    _____________________________________________________________________________
    Yes, those under the Law of Moses, and the Prophets will sing that victory song.
    _____________________________________________________________________________
    You overlook the fact that not only the Prophets but "all the Saints, both small and great and all those who fear God", will be "judged and rewarded" as of the 7th Trumpet ... after the Martyrs and Firstfruit sing their songs in Rev.15. For only then was the "Temple open" after the Last Plague empties and the smoke of God’s glory and power clears the Temple". Rev.11:18-19. The "firstfruit" demonstrate
    that the rest of the Elect who survive to the End are about to be rescued as well.
    Those who "overcome to the END will reign with Christ on earth" while the Martyrs will "serve God as Pillars in heaven's Temple for 1000 years". Rev.3:12; Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4-5.

    After the 7th Trumpet sounds and while "the temple was open, the Ark of the Covenant was seen" as the symbol of God’s immediate Rescue/Resurrection of all who are members of the Body and Bride of the Lamb. Rev.11:19.

    Your Timing is Off at the 7th Trumpet for Resurrection, Rewards and Retribution!

    Your Quotes:
    _____________________________________________________________________________
    Aren't you off on your time frame? Doesn't Amos 8:9 point to the Cross? It was dark from noon until 3P.M. ... Verse 17 disallows what you say. "…which art, and wast, and art to come …" The vials are yet to come. Your theory just cannot hold up.
    _____________________________________________________________________________
    The later manuscripts do not include "and art to come". God will have already begun to reign as stated in the 7th Trumpet as well as Rev.19:6!!!

    It is not the Vials that are "yet to come"; for as of the last day they had already "completed God's anger and demonstrated His deeds are holy and just". Rev.15:1,4. The armies gather to Armageddon before the Temple Opens; but
    are destroyed after the Plagues demonstrate that the wicked refuse to repent!!

    The context of Amos 8 and 9 is the Day of the Lord at the "End of Days". The sun turned dark at noon at the crucifixion to show God’s judgment on His Son; but Amos involves judgment on "all the sinners who will die" when Israel is restored. It is PROPHECY regarding the last day!!!.

    You have painted yourself into a corner of non-prophetic theories regarding "all the saints" who will come with Jesus, including the great tribulation martyrs and every one delivered from great tribulation "on that DAY", according to I Thess.3:13 and I Thess.4:13-14 and 2 Thess.1:7-10.

    Not only your Timing, but the exclusionary theory of a partial rapture of pre-trib saints is your fallacy!! Here I apply your own quotations:
    ____________________________________________________________________________
    "You make the mistake of not making distinction between the Body of Christ Church and the Kingdom Church ... The one in the Body of Christ would be taken, and one would be left to go into `tribulation period'. In the tribulation is the `day of the Lord' and `thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed'".
    ____________________________________________________________________________
    Neither Daniel, Jesus, Paul nor Revelation makes a distinction between pre-trib saints and "all the saints" who will be resurrected and rewarded at Christ’s second coming. Daniel states the "saints" will come with the Son of Man to destroy the Beast after the Court sits in Seal 7 and Dan.7:22-27.

    The Lamb will "come with the called, elect and faithful to destroy the armies of the ten kings gathered to make war against Him". Rev.17:14. "All the saints will come with Jesus on the day He destroys the wicked"; not just pre-trib saints! I Thess 3:13; I Thess.4:13-14; 2 Thess.1:7-10; Luke 17:27-30.

    My dear friend, what have you done?? You have lifted the words of Jesus out of their second coming context and applied them to a partial "pre-trib" rapture by stating above that "the one in the Body of Christ would be taken and one left to go into the tribulation" ! You cannot apply the one taken and one left to both a pre-trib partial rapture as well as to those taken or left on the Day Christ appears!!!!!

    Jesus clearly teaches that the "one taken and one left" applies ONLY to the Day of "Apocalypse" on which He comes to destroy all the wicked. Luke 17:27-30. "ON THAT DAY", all who are willing to die will be "KEPT ALIVE". Luke 17:33.

    I see nothing in your view to conform to the timing of Paul’s teaching, let alone that of Jesus with "all these things that happens on one of the days after the great tribulation"! Mark 13:24-27,30. Verse 30 lumps all these things together on the same day by using a singular verb (happens) with a plural noun (all things)!!!

    Mel Miller http://lastday.net
     
    #75 Mel Miller, Jun 17, 2006
  16. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Mark 13:27, and Matthew reference are not we that are in the Body of Christ. We meet Him in the air. His angels will gather His "elect" people, those of His nation, His people.

    I Thessalonians 4:17 proves what I say in Mark and Matthew to be the correct reading. We are not to change the wording of God. We are Christ's inheritance, as are those that will be raptured before us, in this dispensation of Gods "Grace". We will join them "In Christ".

    The "kingdom age" was what the Prophets spoke of. This is what the "first" resurrection makes reference to, of those that will reign with Christ (plus those in the "great tribulation"), during the millennium. We have had our day at this time, our "secret time in Christ Jesus". It is now their time that they prophesied, and look forward to. They all come by faith, and we are to come through faith.
    Amen. Christ Jesus brings peace to the earth, and they will reign with Him on earth for 1000 years. Revelation 10:7, informs that day of the Seventh Angel, when he begins to sound, are days (Revelation 15) when Divine Vengeance in pouring out the seven vials will occur. It is now too late for any to accept Jesus Christ as King.
    It is in the 1260 days, or "time, times, and half a time" for the voice of the seventh angel (Revelation 10:7) which begins the 7 vials, of which you do not account for.
    They are not caught up to Him in the "air". These, like the three Hebrew children that were in the fiery furnace, come through the tribulation unharmed. These are the first fruits to God and the Lamb.

    Jesus said He is the "resurrection and the life". Jesus Christ is the "firstfruits" of our resurrection. In I Corinthians 15:23 "every man in his own order…..". As those in Christ will arise before we that are alive, means they go before we do. Then we are next as our Lord Jesus Christ comes for us, and some, those that "suffer with Him" will receive the reward of "reigning with Him". Some of us may not be "faithful", but He cannot deny Himself, so some may not reign with Him, but they are saved. Then next in order Christ comes for those that are of the Great Tribulation, all these will reign with Him, for they all suffer.
    Who is worthy to begin the "day" of the opening of the seals? It is the Lamb of God. Revelation 6 begins the "Day of the Lord", and the "Day of the Lord" includes His 1,000 year reign on earth. Your "one day theory" will not allow Christ Jesus to have His reign on this earth.

    You have narrowed your sight to only one aspect. As previously said the Trumpets are in the Seals, and the Vials are in the Trumpets, being the last Trumpet. The Day begins with the seals, with which Wrath begins, culminating in His "great wrath" (Revelation 6:17), which is contained in "the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God", Revelation 15:1.

    We part company for we don't know exactly what happens after chapter 13. Verse 14 gives us an overview of the happenings of God's people during the Tribulation. These "Hebrews" are found in verse 14 in Jerusalem, as Paul also informed in Hebrews 12:22, "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels." This is not for we today that are in the Body of Christ to be taken at the rapture. Revelation speaks to the "Hebrew" nation of God.

    We get a glimpse of the "millennial kingdom" in chapter 14:1-5. You are doing pretty good if you will move away from that "One Day only of the Lord" stance, which actually covers from the beginning of the tribulation period through the Millennium. Psalms 2:6, "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion, places us into the "millennium", as does Revelation 14:1-5. This is all in "prophecy". We were not.
    When we started your position was "triumphant Coronation of Christ in Trump #7!" This position was wrong as stated, as Trump #7 finishes up His "righteous" wrath. You now seem to agree all that was contained in the seals are past tense. It is done, as on the Cross He said "it is finished". If you now contend this is so, we are in agreement for it is after vial is poured into the air that it is done, not during the pouring. The Lord Jesus Christ says from the Temple filled with the smoke of His Glory, "it is done".

    II Thessalonians 2:15-17, "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
    16. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
    17. Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

    He cannot come until I am taken, according to II Thessalonians 2:3.
     
    #76 ituttut, Jun 20, 2006
  17. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    You continue in your misunderstanding of the "kingdom", and to whom the "kingdom" was promised. To whom, and when did Jesus give the "Lord's prayer"? What is that prayer and to whom is it addressed? "Our Father…………….they kingdom come…." God will answer that prayer given to His people for the "kingdom was at hand". Is that to be our prayer today? Is that what we are looking for in the next event to occur?

    The millennium kingdom is the earthly consummation of God's theocratic kingdom. Matthew uses "heavenly kingdom" for this is what the Jew is promised, and were looking for. Jesus Christ will be their King as He comes from heaven in His kingdom of this earth. The theocratic "eternal Kingdom of God" is for the most part "spiritual". Christ Jesus' glorified body blinded Paul. We will be like Him in eternity, and not of an earthly nature as we are of the heavenlies - I Corinthians 15:48; Ephesians 1:3.
    I'll not strive over words that teach truth.

    I agree with what Revelation 19:6 says, but we must take into consideration verse 1. We are to know what these things are. A pouring must first take place to get to verse 6.
    All things must be done. The seventh bowl must be completed before the second coming of Jesus Christ. It will be "world wide". The world will be geographically different on His return.

    Revelation 16:17 tells of the seventh angel pouring into the air his vial. It is now done with the pouring, and Jesus Christ will "now" come. "In the air" takes care of Satan's habitation. We are to tie-up the loose ends which scripture points out to us.
    The prophecy in chapter 8 was fulfilled, and chapter 9 is yet to be fulfilled.
    The saints in 3:13 are those that sleep in 4:12-14. Paul lays the truth out for us, and nowhere makes a connection that the rapture occurs after the "tribulation period" as He returns to this earth.

    Your stance forces contradiction into the writings Christ gave to Paul.
    Daniel does not, and Jesus does not while on this earth make distinction of "saints". Paul indicates the affirmative, and His information comes from Christ in heaven.
    You have changed the meaning of verses 7 and 8 of II Thessalonians to fit your theory. "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." I believe I have shown you this before. We will be resting when the Lord Jesus returns with His mighty angels.
    As said in my previous post, just as in the days of Noah who was "sealed" in the boat, those who will be raptured, was divided from those that were left.

    And so it be likewise with those as of Lot. We of grace today know we will be taken, so the "one taken, and one left" need not be illustrated to us, as it is in verses 34-36 for this is what we preach. Some will be left behind, for they are not of the Body of Christ. Those left will take their chance in the "tribulation period".

    When we get to Lot, this represents the tribulation. Lot was willingly living in a sinful environment, and that was his world he chose. So it will be for those in the tribulation, not under "grace commission", but "great commission", that will be preached to all the world. Lot represents the tribulation saints, but some will not be saints, and will not make it through. Lot's wife represents those in that church then. She turned, yearning for that life, wishing to save it, but she lost her life.
    Notice it is after that "tribulation" period, (not during as you first contended) that Christ comes with great power and glory.

    In verse 28 we see "summer is near", so perhaps our generation will be raptured, and those things of the tribulation will come.

    Verse 33 says we are to take heed and watch and pray, because it could occur at any moment. Now is the time of salvation, where one will be taken, and one left behind.
     
    #77 ituttut, Jun 20, 2006
  18. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Ituttut,

    On June 20 you responded to my quotation:
    Quote:

    I see nothing in your view to conform to the timing of Paul’s teaching, let alone that of Jesus with "all these things that happens on one of the days after the great tribulation"! Mark 13:24-27,30. Verse 30 lumps all these things together on the same day by using a singular verb (happens) with a plural noun (all things)!!!
    In your response you stated:
    Quote:
    ____________________________________________________________
    Notice it is after that "tribulation" period, (not during as you first contended) that Christ comes with great power and glory.

    In verse 28 we see "summer is near", so perhaps our generation will be raptured, and those things of the tribulation will come.

    Verse 33 says we are to take heed and watch and pray, because it could occur at any moment. Now is the time of salvation, where one will be taken, and one left behind.
    _____________________________________________________________

    I wish to correct your misunderstanding of the time to fulfill the "NOW of God's kingdom power and of Christ's authority" coming to earth thru the two witnessess! It occurs during the great tribulation. Rev.12:10-14.

    So, if you leave out the misapplication of your words as to Christ's coming in POWER only (the words in parenthesis), you are correct: "Notice it is after that "tribulation" period that Christ comes with great power and glory. My point is that He comes in POWER only thru the Two Prophets.


    Jesus is coming in PERSON and in glory AFTER the great tribulation. And
    "some will not taste death, by any means" until AFTER the same period.
    He is coming in POWER before He comes in PERSON and in glory. Mark 9:1.

    You continue to believe the teaching of an "any-moment" coming of Christ in PERSON at a so-called Pre-Trib Rapture. He doesn't even come in POWER thru the Two Prophets until Midweek of Daniel's 70th Seven!!

    You continue to misapply the "one taken and one left" to the Pre-Trib
    Rapture when Jesus clearly states that this applies ONLY to the Day He
    comes to destroy the wicked and deliver the Saints. 2 Thess.1:7-10.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:
     
    #78 Mel Miller, Jul 15, 2006
  19. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    I'll not argue this point, other than to say God the Holy Spirit, the giver or gifts just as at Pentecost, gives these two Great Power. The Power of God cannot, and is not known. Satan found that out.
    Amen, and every eye will see Him as He comes back to this earth "after" the great tribulation. After Pentecost they saw the "kingdom of God" come with Power, and rejected this which is what Mark 9:1 refers.
    He comes for me, and for you, after the rapture of those that died before we. The hurdle that you have not yet been able to clear is something you fail to see which God had hidden. He will reveal it you if you will ask. You can find it in I Corinthians 15:51-54, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

    Is this not a "mystery" not known until after Damascus Road? Can you see the "mystery" shown here revealed? Absorb verses 51, and 52. This has nothing to do with John 11:25-26, for this is of the "last day when resurrection of all others not in this "dispensation" of the Body Christ resurrection. In I Cor. 51 Paul says he shows a mystery, and then tells what it is. Are we to call Paul a lair, or do we believe him? The secret is the event itself, which no man ever knew. It was not prophesied. We cannot find this event anywhere in scripture until Christ Jesus revealed it to Paul, and Paul faithfully reveals to us the "mysteries" Christ gave him.

    We find the second coming of gathering the elect prophesied in Matt. 24:29-31. That does not describe us, we in the Body of Christ today. We today are living in that "secret" time of God reconciling the world unto Himself.
    One taken and one left implies and points to the rapture, or rather to the idea of "one being caught up, and the other one not". One will be raptured before the Great Tribulation, and One will be left to take their chances, which have to be pretty slim.

    I Thess. 4:14-18, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

    Here we see again the "secret" in this matter of Our Resurrection before that Tribulation to come. I believe the words of Christ Jesus from heaven, and they comfort me. We know if we believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to saves us, He will do it; He saved me, so I'll let him comfort me.
     
    #79 ituttut, Jul 16, 2006
  20. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Order of Events

    Ituttut,

    I note once again that you place the resurrection before the tribulation
    only by reading INTO the text what Paul did not say:

    Quote:
    _____________________________________________________________
    "The hurdle that you (Mel) have not yet been able to clear is something you fail to see which God had hidden. He will reveal it you if you will ask. You can find it in I Corinthians 15:51-54, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    ____________________________________________________________

    No where does Paul state the Last Trump sounds BEFORE the tribulation.
    You insert your doctrine INTO scripture as if what you say is God's word.
    No where does Paul state that "ALL who are changed" excludes those whom Jesus will "raise up on the last day ... on the Day He comes to gather the elect from earth to heaven ... on the Day He sends the angels to gather the elect out of all extremities of the heavens".

    You have no scriptural evidence whatsoever that the elect gathered from earth to heaven are the Jews saved during the great tribulation AFTER WE ARE ALL CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP. You have no proof that the dispensation of salvation of grace by faith does NOT apply to both Jews
    and Gentiles DURING the great tribulation. Your doctrine is extra-Biblical!!!
    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:
     
    #80 Mel Miller, Jul 18, 2006
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