Interesting slant

johnp.
Amsterdam?
You are all out of marihuana and kitsch I presume.
I would reschedule to say Maastricht if I were you. At least the level of touristkitsch in the stores will be lowered to a tolerable level.

(just for future reference last time I checked my underwear I turned out to be a Dutchwoman)

 

To further widen the debate, many Christians in the UK likewise are puzzled at the narrow interpretation of the term 'moral values' in the US, less because of the apparent exclusion of discussion of the morality of war referred to by the OP (although we find that odd too) but more the failure within US evangelicalism to discuss moral and ethical issues such as poverty, injustice, oppression, social exclusion etc at home and abroad eg: debate about welfare, Darfur, etc. I'm certainly not saying that issues such as abortion and homosexuality don't need airing - they clearly do - but I do find the seeming obsession with sexual moral issues in the US strange and even slightly disturbing on occasions...any US posters care to hazard an opinion as to why this narrow focus?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Many of us in the blue states are also puzzled and annoyed by that. It might have some of its origins in Rev. Falwell's self-named "Moral Majority" (which stemmed from Nixon's phrase, "Silent Majority" to counter his war protesters). Somehow, that seemed to meld with the Republicans' "Family Values" catchphrase (as though gay people had no families and no families had gay members). Ironically, "family values" specifically excluded homosexuals who wanted legal recognition as families (much of the Bush administration's policy names are brilliantly opposite of what they are).

Somehow this version of "family values" became associated in some people's minds as "moral values" to the exclusion of comfort for the comfortless, food for the hungry, clothes for the illclad, shelter for the dispossessed...liberal values.

 

The "moral" label has been unevenly applied to matters of sexual behavior, as you (Daisy and Matt) point out. But there's a good reason:

There is no movement in the USA to teach "caring for your neighbor is an old-fashioned, bigoted idea. It's just as good to choose to let him starve". But there is the equivalent movement in sexual morals. The emphasis is a necessary response to that.

 

Hmmm, I'm not totally convinced that that is a good point, but it is certainly well-made.

 

Well, I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not.

 

You and yours should consider that good - any better and I'd be conceding my position on the matter.

Oh, ok! You win! That was a good point and you made it well. Happy now?

 

It ain't often I get someone to change their mind.

 

Forgive me mioque.

Not at all there's plenty of both over here.
Is this tourist infomation? Is the smoking cheaper in Maastricht?

You can't always tell by the underwear me dear.

johnp.

 

Hello poncho.

But that cannot mean a referendum on every piece of legislation can it? If it does then you lot have abrogated your responsibility since 1788.

It's a representative order. You vote for someone to represent you in power and he goes and does as he wants. It's always been like that. It is only recently that the idea came that everyman should have a say in everything? It is the final version of Democracy. There was no king in Israel at that time and the people did just as they pleased, Judges 17:6.
We in Britain are almost there, are you?

Referendum's or mob rule was that?

"We the people of the United States..." Sounds pretty collective to me.

I think what we have is wonderful. We can moan all we want and still have our heads on our shoulders in the morning. This is a rare thing in history. We can stick our fingers up at Bush and laugh at him. That's something else that is. Try that with a Saddam or a Hitler.They are under our control, (more or less).

johnp.

 

You are correct that it cannot mean a referendum on every vote.

You are incorrect that he has any right whatsoever to "do as he wants".

Government by the people means that WE created the federal government, and in so doing, delegated to it certain specific powers, defined in the Constitution.

NO elected servant has ANY RIGHT to operate outside of the powers that WE delegated to the government.

 

HelloPennsylvania Jim.

I never said they have any right, I said, "You vote for someone to represent you in power and he goes and does as he wants." But I disagree with you at the end of the post.

I see the same problem cropping up. Who tells the representative what is what? Delegates or mob? What happens to the Congressman's conscience. Hang it on a hook for duration? They get blamed for having none already I bet yer.

That's right. I hear that your Congress has power over the President. No such power is over Blair. He is an elected dictator who can rule for five years if he can keep his head down and his team onside.

They have the power delegated to them by God. "To do you good."
To restrict them and tie their hands? To give the enemy bounds by which to judge your country's leadership and how far they are prepared/allowed to go? They must be able to act outside of any limits. Just don't get caught must be the rule.
They are primarily God's ministers not yours. They carry the sword to winnow the earth and they are good at their job.

It's like; We decide who is going to drive the car and then we tell the driver how to drive the car altogether with different advise on how to drive the car.
I believe there is a space for public protest and lobbying those in power. The Vietnam protests were not in vain in the end. We had the Poll tax riots in the Tatcher years. When the people speak like that they must listen. People must speak like that to make them hear us. Anything less is ignored and gives the impression to the outside world that you are divided.

johnp.

 

His duties, responsibilities, and powers are outlined in the Constitution, which he has sworn on the Bible to uphold and defend. He is to work within those guidelines and restrictions. To do otherwise is a sin against God and man.

The government is ordained of God. God has ordained that people form the government. We formed our government by writing the Constitution, which defines it. Both the governors and the governed are bound by the law.

 

johnp.
"Is this tourist infomation?"
"
In a sense.

" Is the smoking cheaper in Maastricht?"
"
Wouldn't know, I haven't had anything to do with marihuana since I accidently ate a piece of apple pie laced with it in the 80's

 

Hello Pennsylvania Jim.

That is serious stuff. Let's be clear, if he swears to uphold the outline: a relatively brief and condensed treatment of a particular subject: then he is free to interpret that as his conscience dictates?
If yes then the swearing is of no real effect is it? That's political speak meaning nothing.

Bound but break it. You talk of the ideal, if it is ideal? It is not fact. We must behave like the enemy behave. We must not fight with one arm tied. There must be a power of executive to decide when the Constitution is an incumberance and to put it aside for a time. We had a war powers act. We have emergency powers that kick in when Democracy is under threat and those powers deny Democracy.
Have you nothing like that?

johnp.

 

Okey dokey. Discussion's over. It was interesting while it lasted.

 

Well, no, PA Jim, you can keep going until 9:00 p.m. ET and then request it to be moved to the Politics Forum, if you want to keep going.

Folks, let me reiterate on the 3-page rule:
After a thread has reached 3-pages, Mods will give you a minimum 6-hour warning that the thread will be closed.

That doesn't mean you have to stop posting - you can keep going until the thread is locked. That could be several pages more of discussion.

AND YOU HAVE AN OPTION: You can ask the thread be moved to another forum to keep the discussion going!

We realize this is an adjustment for some who haven't posted in the other News Forum, but actually, it is a plan that has worked well for a long time, so cheer up!

Lady Eagle,
Moderator

 

I request it to be moved to the Politics Forum.

johnp.

 

Done. Carry on.