To my CC brethren

Brother Adam posted:

For the Christian, a belief in Jesus christ is absolutely essential.

For the others, I will let God be the judge.

Not me! And I know of no other Catholic who believes this.

Not me! And again, I know of no other Catholic who does as you suggest.

One word makes this statement invalid - "torture." We believe in purgatory where indeed, we may require to be purified of any Straw" that must be "burned-up"

Here are some interesting scripture references for you:

PURGATORY

The Bible commends the practice of praying for the dead.

2 Maccabees 12:46 "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought
to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins."

The following passages indicate the existence of purgatory.

Matthew 12:32 "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son
of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak
against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in
this world, nor in the world to come."

NOTE: When you die, do you go to "the world to come?" The implication is, some sins can be forgiven there as well!

Luke 12:58-59 "And when thou goest with thy adversary to the
prince, whilst thou art in the way, endeavour to be delivered
from him: lest he draw thee to the judge, and the judge deliver
thee to the exacter, and the exacter cast thee into prison. I
say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence, until thou pay the
very last mite."

NOTE: Jesus compares the human earthly system of judgement with what occurs in our judgment in heaven. If one can be released from a "heavenly prison" by "payng the very last mite," then that can't be hell, where punishment is everlasting.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 "Every man's work shall be manifest; for
the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be
revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of
what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built
thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he
shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by
fire."

NOTE: How does one "suffer loss," yet is "saves, yet so as by fire"?

1 Peter 3:18-19 "Because Christ also died once for our sins, the
just for the unjust; that he might offer us to God, being put to
death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit. In which
also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison."

NOTE: That "prison" thing again.....

ALL OF US! (Although I would choose to say that the priest stands-in for God since God is the author of all forgiveness.) That includes me as well, of course, per John 20:22-23.

Be very careful here, as "worthiness" of the priest is not the point, but rather if God has to power to do this with a mere man! No man is worthy to forgive sins in the capacity of a priest, but that does not seem to worry God in the least!

I hope my answers are as straightforward as they can be.

If you reply, there will be a delay in my answering it, as I will be out of town starting Thursday morning for the 4th of July Weekend...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


"Gloria in excelsis Deo"

(Intoned by the celebrant of the Mass.)

(The choir response.)

Et in terra pax homininus
bone voluntatis
Laudamus te
Benedicimus te
Adoramus te
Glorificamus te,
Gratias agimus tibi propter
magnum gloriam tuum.
Domine Deus, Rex Coelestis,
Deus Pater omnipotens
Domine Fili unigenite
Jesu Christe Domine Deus
Agnus Dei Filius Patris
Qui tollis peccata mundi
miserere nobis.
Qui tollis peccata mundi,
suscipe deprecationem nostram.
Qui sedes ad dexteramPatris,
miserere nobis.
Quoniam tu solus Sanctus,
Tu solus Dominus
Tu solus Altissimus
Jesu Christe.
Cum Sancto Spiritu
in gloria Dei Patris
Amen.

- The Ambrosian Gloria -


http://www.solesmes.com/sons/gloria.ram

(Real monks chanting....)


Gregorian Chant - God's music!

 

Is the priest absolving sins similar to a Baptist minister saying "By the authority vested in me, by God and this state, I now pronounce you man and wife"? Or is it different?

[ June 30, 2003, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: BrianT ]

 

Bro Adam said:

(I could probably take a guess at what the answers will be, but with all the reading I've been doing, it just seems alot of people are convinced of this, so I'm hoping for some straightforward answers)

I just hope that none of these people are Catholic! Unfortunately, I wouldn't be surprised that some who profess to be Catholic would answer some of these to the positive. And it's no great wonder that many Protestants think these things of us! But it doesn't take too much research to find out that these are common fallacies and misunderstandings. Perpetuated in some cases by Catholics who were never challenged enough to look into matters of the faith they profess. That is why it seems the most devout Catholics are the ones who converted and had to overcome these obstacles and fallacies that they grew up hearing about the Church.

 

This scripture does not say what you want it to say. Instead is says that certain sins you do in this world are not forgiveable whether here or in the next world. It is pretty sure there will be no sin in the next world, because evil will have been cast into the lake of fire. This world with its heaven and earth will pass away to be replaced by a New heaven and New Earth, and there will be no evil there.

 

Leaving aside the "state" part, I'll confess my ignorance here about where in Scripture priests (or ministers) are given authority to perform marriages. Any pointers?

The authority of priests to forgive sins is very explicit. When you ask if it's similar or different, what exactly do you mean?

 

Wesley er, Yelsew said:
This scripture does not say what you want it to say. Instead is says that certain sins you do in this world are not forgiveable whether here or in the next world. It is pretty sure there will be no sin in the next world, because evil will have been cast into the lake of fire. This world with its heaven and earth will pass away to be replaced by a New heaven and New Earth, and there will be no evil there.

Just trying to understand your statements here. Are you saying that the scripture in question refers to a new earth, (I think the NT refers to the "new Jerusalem".) If so., then does this scripture imply that some souls who will make it to this new earth are in need of some forgiving of sins? Otherwise wouldn't it say just that some sins won't be forgiven PERIOD!? And my understanding is that in this particular scripture "world", whould be more accurately translated as "age".
Either way, if no sin exists in the next age or the next world, why is their an existence of the possibility for forgiveness? It's right there in scripture as plain as day. Make it jive with the rest of your understanding of scripture if you'd be so kind.

 

Compare Matthew 12:32 with Mark 3:28-29. Can this sin be forgiven in the age to come? Mark seems to give the answer.

Mark 3:28-29: I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

 

When I was dining on the "Milk of the Word", I did not have knowledge enough for the Holy Spirit to give insight beyond basic salvation 101. However as I transitioned to "the meat of the Word" the Holy Spirit revealed spiritual truthes to me in the same manner that He does to everyone who studies and observes.

So to answer your question, That which I believe now, I did not believe earlier. But what I believe now does not negate that which I believed earlier, but rather confirms it.

Along the way I have had diversions into Catholocism, Baptistism, Lutheranism, Wesleyanism, and Mormonism, I even studied Budhism, and a little Islam. But must say that the last three provided me no comfort from the Comforter. My soul was troubled by them.

I am a non-affiliated Christian, meaning that my name is not one the roll books of any denomination or Congregation. That should tell you that I do not adhere to the specific or unique teachings of any denomination or congregation. I do attend church regularly and at least once a week. Occasionally, upon invitation, I teach in Sunday School, or in Bible studies. You can see that I am a frequent contributor to this BBS, and a couple of others. You can also see that my delivery is different than most others, but don't let that bother you. I put on my trousers just like you do, one leg at a time, unless you are a fireman.

Finally if you do not agree with what I've posted please, at least tell me why.

 

quote:Adam asked
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How many of you believe purgatory is a place where God is going to torture you?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually the RCC does describe it as torment, suffering etc and has created the entire system of "indulgences" to get you "OUT" of Purgatory.

Often in the almost-proof for Purgatory Catholics seek to "find support for indulgences" as "the same thing".

However - nobody CAN go to purgatory with Mortal sin still on their soul - according to the RCC - thus abolishing the last thread of a "text" from an almost-Biblical source 2Macc.

This text says nothing about "venial" sins - that is a sin that is NOT mortal - for example in this case it is talking about open rebellion and idolatry by the supposed people of God.

It also states that INSTEAD of focusing on "torment IN death" the purpose of the sacrifice made for those guilty of the mortal sin of idolatry was entirely focused on the "resurrection".

According to the RCC - someone that is a Bible believing child of God AND chooses to commit idolatry - can not go to Purgatory.

Impossible to miss.

In 2Macc the statement is made BY OTHER JEWS that these who died in idolatry were under the judgment of God.

This says nothing about "purgatory" NOR does it say that you "will go to heaven with this unforgiven sin" as the RCC "supposes".

Rather - this is a "sin unto death".

EVEN the RCC as bad as it is - admits that venial sins CAN BE FORGIVEN IN THIS LIFE. Christ says of the sin above - it CAN NOT.

You are grasping at straws Bill.

The RCC does not teach "forgiveness" in Purgatory - but "payment".

God says that "it is appointed unto man ONCE to die and THEN comes the Judgment" - it says nothing about "and THEN comes more opportunities to repent".

Punishment in hell is not never-ending.

Christ is pointing out that you WILL pay for your sins in hell. Luke 12 makes it clear that the one that "knew his master's will and did deeds worthy of punishment will receive many lashes". This is the very fires of hell that Matt 18 references ALSO showing that "Forgiveness revoked" results in being cast in that place of torment - and paying the very last cent.

These are all references to paying for your own sins in hell fire.

Man's WORK is judged by fire - in 1Cor 3 it is the FIRE that tests whether you "Laid another foundation OTHER than the ONE foundation - Jesus Christ". (I believe we do know some who propose ANOTHER foundation for the church).

But this is a statement about the "TEACHING" of the person as is explicitly stated in 1Cor 3 and the WORK - the TEACHING is that which is tested by fire - it is not the dead soul.

Try again. The text says nothing about being tested in the next life by fire and nothing about the PERSON going through fire.

But if you DID try to "put fire on the person" in this text - THEN you HAVE the very TORMENT and TORTURE you are trying to "deny".

Either way - your point fails.

Ephesians 2 and Romans 6 all state that the lost are NOW in prison in THIS world - enslaved to the god of this world. Christ came with the message of preaching "Liberty to the captives".

1 Peter 3 states that the ones "IN PRISON" where those "PREACHED TO" while Noah was building the ARK.

Your point fails again. No mention of purgatory. No mention of "another chance to accept Christ after being dead".
No mention of "Souls purified by fire after death".

No mention of "Indulgences getting you out of torture early".

Plenty of mention of paying for your own sins as a result of the judgment - but that is hell fire, in every case.

The RC myth that you can die with unforgiven sin and STILL go to heaven - is false.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The RC myth that you can die with unforgiven sin and STILL go to heaven - is false.

Isn't that a non-Catholic "myth" as well? Most of us will die with sins unrepented of. So the question is, what happens to us? Since we're saved by grace, doesn't that mean that we will go to heaven despite sins we have yet to repent of?

 

ah grasshopper a very good question!

I've been having conversation with a friend about this. Her mother's church teaches if you die with any sin you go to hell, do not pass go do not collect 200.00 ....so if you sinned then got hit by a car....too bad.

I pointed out to her that this is what happens when you have Churches breaking off from each other continuously over time....part of the teachings get left off or changed as they split each time.

Of course we Catholics believe in a purgatorial process.....the blood of Jesus does cover our sins, however we still must do some sort of pennance for them. If your child lies to you, you forgive them, but they are required to make amends somehow, ie punishment/restitution.

My friends view on it is that you can't ever loose salvation and once you are 'saved' you won't want to sin....well...unfortunately we are human and we will sin until we die. So her answer to that is that Jesus's blood covers it....so then I ask her...well if that's the case then you can just go out and sin all you want until you die...if Jesus's blood is going to cover all you do....why even ask for forgiveness...no need!

Still not gotten a answer for that one really....


LaRae

 

Wrong answer, that happens when any church establishes a doctrine that is not in accordance with Holy Scripture.

Why penance when Jesus paid the penalty for sin? God assigned penance for sins to Jesus, the sacrificial Lamb of God. What scriptures say over and over is REPENTANCE FROM SINNING, but if you do sin, CONFESSION is in order so that you can be forgiven. Even so, if Sin is not confessed, it is not held against you. Lack of Faith is held against you.

In Child rearing, you have a situation of teaching, but among adults when one lies to you, you cannot "punish" them with anything but disbelief and future mistrust, and perhaps a severing of relationship.

I've already answered this, but to make sure you understand what your friend is saying.

Once you have faith (sustained belief) in Jesus, the Christ, you are "marked for" salvation. So long as you retain that sustained belief in Jesus, you remain "marked for" Salvation. Thus "once saved, always saved". But, if you stop believing in Jesus the Christ, your faith ceases to exist, and the "marked for" get's erased and so does your name from the Lambs book of Life. Now I am not speaking of little lapses in faith, but a repentance from faith!

Atonement for Sins. Jesus death upon the cross is the atonement for all the sins of the world! That effectively removes sin as a factor of God's judgement of mankind! Sins paid for are no longer accounted against the one who sins. Does that mean that we can go out and sin all we want to? God forbid! But it does mean that even if we do sin, it is not held against us because it too has been paid for. But any sins that we do are a hindrance to our relationship with God. God does not bless the habitual sinner, any more than you allow your children to lie to you without being disciplined. However, God does not punish us because He is being gracious towards all mankind so that by our faith we are saved. Just as sin is an offence that must be confessed in order to receive forgiveness, we who sin while having faith in God must confess our sins in order for them to be forgiven. Even so, they are not held against us in judgment.

Sins are "WORKS" in the same manner that GOOD WORKS are works. Sin works and Faith works both require the expenditure of human effort. Our works, good and bad will be tested by fire. That which is good comes through the fire in the manner that gold, silver, and precious stones come through fire. That which is bad is consumed by the fire in the manner that wood, hay, and stubble are consumed by fire, leaving only ashes. It is our works by which we receive rewards in Heaven, so if your works are bad, you receive little or no reward, it they are good, you receive reward proportionate to the works. The rewards that we receive we lay at the feet of Jesus, our Savior.

So Sins are not accounted against us, and Works do not result in Salvation, so what does save us? FAITH, and FAITH ALONE! Jesus tells us in John 3:18 that if you believe in HIM you are not judged. NO judgement means that you are not subject to the second death of being cast into the lake of fire. HOWEVER, if you do not believe in HIM, your unbelief condemns you to the second death, and there is no escape because your works cannot save you, and your rejection of the one who atones negates any atonement for your sins.

So there you have it squid! Ask to see if your friend agrees or disagrees with the answer I have given!

 

No it is not. The non-RC Gospel states that ALL sins must be forgiven in this life - no future forgiveness awaits you, no future opportunity to "work off sins".

The blood of Christ covers the believer or it doesn't. There is no "half way coverage" in the view of most non-RC's.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Paul has the answer for that in Romans 6:1-14 (NIV)

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

 

Matt. 18:18 and John 20:23 give the called ministers of Christ the authority to freely forgive the sins of those who are truly repentant and who trust in the merits of Christ alone for forgiveness.