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Democracy in Iraq

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by JGrubbs, Jan 31, 2005.

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  1. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Are you now gonna start throwing around conspiracy theories and saying words like illuminati? Where is Poncho when you need him? [​IMG]

    It appears to me that you guys think there could be no wrong with the founding fathers, while you also think there can be nothing right with George W. Bush. That would make you guilty of the sin of idolatry and blind hatred.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #61 Joseph_Botwinick, Jan 31, 2005
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    I would be surprised if you read the Bible at all. You have repeatedly equated our founding fathers with being pro-slavery; therefore, surely you would not be pro Old Testament. </font>[/QUOTE]There is no denying they were pro-slavery unless you haven't read your Constitution that you seem to hold so holy and dear.

    Now, are you trying to make a Biblical defense for slavery? I guess that would be the only way you could justify the tyranny that was perpetrated on black men, women, and children in America by the founding fathers under the original draft of the Constitution.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #62 Joseph_Botwinick, Jan 31, 2005
  3. Terry_Herrington

    Terry_Herrington New Member

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    Do you deny that the Old Testament Jews, by God's instruction, participated in slavery?
     
    #63 Terry_Herrington, Jan 31, 2005
  4. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs New Member

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    I will admit that I believe the Illuminati to be real, and I also believe the Bush dynasty to have ties to the Illuminati and the New World Order. You can call it conspiracy theory if you wish, but I see the facts and connect the dots.

    I have seen faults in everyone of the founding fathers, and I have applauded Bush when he has done good. I don't think Bush is sneaking around lying to people, I think he is honest and sincere, I just think he isn sincerely wrong, and very dangerous for America.
     
    #64 JGrubbs, Jan 31, 2005
  5. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Are you trying to make a Biblical case for slavery and tyranny?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #65 Joseph_Botwinick, Jan 31, 2005
  6. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs New Member

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    So you avoid the question once again, but trying to ask a different question.

    I am against slavery, and have never understood why God condoned it and gave the rules He did about slavery, but He is God and I am not. If I were alive in the Biblical times or 17th century I would like to think I would have been against slavery then too, but it was a different time, I don't know how I would have viewed the issue if I would have been born in that part of world history.
     
    #66 JGrubbs, Jan 31, 2005
  7. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    I didn't change the subject. I asked the question earlier and Terry ignored it.

    I think I know how you would have responded as an isolationist:

    It is an internal conflict. They don't deserve freedom if they're not willing to fight for it. Freedom for me, but not for thee.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #67 Joseph_Botwinick, Jan 31, 2005
  8. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs New Member

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    You don't know how I would have responded, and you don't know how you would have responded. It was a different time, we would have a different mindset.

    I like to think I would have spoken out against slavery, and done everything within my power to end slavery. Or maybe I would do like General Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson did, and use slavery as a means of evangelism, and provide for the slaves, educate the slaves and evangelize the slaves. I don't know how I would have responded, I just know how I like to think I would have responded.
     
    #68 JGrubbs, Jan 31, 2005
  9. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    I merely told you what I thought you would have said given your freedom for me, but not for thee isolationist philosophy.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #69 Joseph_Botwinick, Jan 31, 2005
  10. Terry_Herrington

    Terry_Herrington New Member

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    Joseph, do you deny that the Old Testament Jews, by God's instruction, participated in slavery?
     
    #70 Terry_Herrington, Jan 31, 2005
  11. Terry_Herrington

    Terry_Herrington New Member

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    Gee Joseph, it would seem that someone who posts a mile-a-minute and is fast with the sarcasm would be able to answer a simple question.
     
    #71 Terry_Herrington, Jan 31, 2005
  12. Terry_Herrington

    Terry_Herrington New Member

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    Are you trying to make a Biblical case for slavery and tyranny?

    Joseph Botwinick     </font>[/QUOTE]Well, you will not answer my question, but I will still answer yours.

    Yes, there is a biblical case for slavery. If this were not so, God would not have given instructions as to the details involved.

    Now will you be man enough to answer my question?
     
    #72 Terry_Herrington, Jan 31, 2005
  13. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Are you trying to make a Biblical case for slavery and tyranny?

    Joseph Botwinick     </font>[/QUOTE]Well, you will not answer my question, but I will still answer yours.

    Yes, there is a biblical case for slavery. If this were not so, God would not have given instructions as to the details involved.

    Now will you be man enough to answer my question?     </font>[/QUOTE]I can't think of a time in the OT when this was true. I know that there are some verses that are used in the NT as a proof text to justify slavery and tyranny.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #73 Joseph_Botwinick, Jan 31, 2005
  14. Pennsylvania Jim

    Pennsylvania Jim New Member

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    Joseph, you've been suckered. You paid for a first class fare on the express liner, and they put you on the Bush Bandwagon.
     
    #74 Pennsylvania Jim, Feb 1, 2005
  15. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs New Member

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    I'm not condoning slavery, I'm simply asking what the Bible meant in these passages if it wasn't condoning slavery during Biblical times.

    Old Testament

    However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

    If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

    When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

    New Testament

    Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

    Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

    The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
     
    #75 JGrubbs, Feb 1, 2005
  16. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    Dumb irrelevant questions:

    1. Where in the scripture does it say the world is going to be democratic?

    2. Also, where does it say the world will be won to Christ?

    Jesus said that He came not to bring peace but a sword. Following Him will put father against son, brother against brother, mother against daughter, nation against nation--all of these things are coming to pass--even as we speak.

    "When they shall say peace and safety, then shall come sudden destruction."

    God is still on His throne--from everlasting to everlasting. He is sovereign--He does not change His purpose. His WILL will be whether we believe or not.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
    #76 Bro. James, Feb 1, 2005
  17. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    We are spending time and effort to correct the problem of abortion in America! Most Christians - including many of our public leaders - are strongly united against it and working to put an end to it. No nation would be justified in invading us over that! Fortunately, none are so foolish to turn your thought into such action. Our business in Iraq is legitimate and the results will benefit the people of Iraq and the security of America. It already has! You are mixing two completely different issues and attempting to use scriptural references to justify them. By your own example it would then be wrong for us to do anything about abortion until we had remedied every other personal sinful behavior in our own public and private lives including both those of deeds and of thoughts alone. We know that would not be the right thing to do.

    You're scriptural quotation implies that we, as a nation are being passing harsh judgment upon other nations within seeing our own faults and dealing with them. That implication is very far from the truth. Our nation is probably harder on itself than any other in modern times and very vocal - probably too much so - about those faults. If we did nothing because we have some faults then we'd never do anything because we will always have faults. The scriptures do not prevent a nation from taking punitive action against another for just cause and in a rightful manner any more than it prevents individuals from doing so.

    We all need to remember that we fall far short of the glory of God, all deserve an eternity in hell separated from God, and, as Christians, our pardon is solely by the grace of God through Jesus Christ and has nothing to do with even a speck of righteousness in us. Yet we, particularly as Christians, need to remain cognizant of the many great temporal blessings He has granted us in America since our very beginning and we need to be always generous to others less fortunate and willing to help others in dire need of establishing a freedom will bring about peace and prosperity for them as well as us. This is the responsible conduct that God expects of nations that are blessed by Him. It would be disgraceful for us to remain silent in the world and inactive in the cause of freedom just because of our individual short comings.

    Patrick
     
    #77 Dragoon68, Feb 1, 2005
  18. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    That's a very good question! Democracy has proven, so far, to be the best choice for self government among mankind on this earth yet it is not without fault and it is still of this world. It will all pass when the Lord comes again. The only everlasting perfect government is the one when our Lord on the throne. Yet, so long as we walk this earth we must live in the world and do the best we can with what He has blessed us to have.

    Patrick
     
    #78 Dragoon68, Feb 1, 2005
  19. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs New Member

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    Can you name one thing any member of the GOP including the President has done in the last four years to stop a single one of the 4,000 babies from being killed in this country?
     
    #79 JGrubbs, Feb 1, 2005
  20. Pennsylvania Jim

    Pennsylvania Jim New Member

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    Actually, God set OT Israel up, politically, as a republic, not a democracy. Also the founders established America as a republic.
     
    #80 Pennsylvania Jim, Feb 2, 2005
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