Moses and Elijah, Assumed

Yes -

Jesus was not "conjuring the dead". This is not a seance'. It is not a case of praying to the dead or conjuring up the dead spirits.

In the NT - in the book of Jude we see reference made to the book "The Assumption of Moses".

In 2Kings 2 we see the fact that Elijah was taken "up to heaven" by God - while still alive.

These were LIVING saints - they were not "Those who have fallen asleep" that we see referenced in 1Thess 4.

No way to use Matt 17 as an "excuse" for praying to the dead.

In Christ,

Bob

 

We know that Elijah was bodily taken to heaven while living - because scripture tells us so in 2Kings 2.

We know that Moses was taken to heaven after dying - by being resurrected and bodily assumed into heaven - because Jude quotes "The Assumption of Moses" as authorotative.

We "might expect" the almost-all-important personage of Mary to get "honorable mention" in that group as she does so incessantly today by our Catholic bretheren - and yet in scripture - not a peep regarding Mary being raised.

IN FACT - the RCC itself did not "think to imagine" that event until CENTURIES after Mary's death.

And "in fact" the ONLY argument in favor of Mary's "assumption into heaven" that the RCC makes is NOT based on any scriptural reference - BUT rather to a non-scriptural error - the error that "Mary was sinless like Christ and so deserved to be bodily raised and sent to heaven like Christ".

Yet scripture flatly contradicts the argument that ANY of the children of Adam were "sinless like Christ". God ALONE holds that title.

You see - IF the RCC had claimed INSTEAD "Hey Mary was assumed into heaven because we found all these first century eye-witness accounts testifying to that fact" - we could certainly have room to "believe it".

But that is NOT the claim.

You must FIRST believe the "error" that Mary was "sinnless like Christ" to GET TO the RCC reasoning for the non-fact that she was "assumed into Heaven".

The premise is flawed - a non-Catholic could therefore never swallow it's conclusion.

In Christ,

Bob

 

What about Moses and Elijah and Enoch appiritions? Why do they not happen now?

Neal

 

What about Moses and Elijah and Enoch appiritions? Why do they not happen now?

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]

 

GraceSaves,

That was a cheap shot throwing out a loaded question like that.

 

Now who are the dead prophets in Revelation ? Are they Elijah and Moses ? Seriously, I do have a point, but need an answer first. And yes, it is a loaded question.

 

Brother Curtis,
Will you take a guess from a SBC'er?? The Revelation prophets are unnamed--I think??--so theologians take educated guesses--I guess Enoch and Elijah--basically because they are the only two fellas in the word that never died--they were "caught up" so to speak.

Mary is dead and her bones are somewhere in Middle Eastern soil--probably somewhere there under the rocks in Israel "awaiting resurrection day!"

Your friend,
Blackbird

 

I prefer to go to the word of God when asking biblical questions. SO lets see what God has said.

Deuteronomy 34:1Then Moses went up from the plains of Moab to Mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, which is across from Jericho. And the LORD showed him all the land of Gilead as far as Dan, 2all Naphtali and the land of Ephraim and Manasseh, all the land of Judah as far as the £Western Sea, 3the South, and the plain of the Valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, as far as Zoar. 4Then the LORD said to him, “This is the land of which I swore to give Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, ‘I will give it to your descendants.’ I have caused you to see it with your eyes, but you shall not cross over there.”
5So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day. 7Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died. His eyes were not dim nor his natural vigor diminished.


Unless God is a liar, then Moses died and was burried.

 

Hi Kate,

You wrote, "Unless God is a liar, then Moses died and was burried."

So? Jesus died and was buried as well. And he subsequently rose from the dead in the resurrection.

For someone to be assumed into heaven, they must not "not die". In fact, most Catholics believe that Mary died and was buried before she was assumed into heaven (we are free to believe that she either died or didn't die; the formula of the dogma is, "at the end of her earthly life").

If Moses was assumed into heaven, it most certainly occurred after his death and burial: events which do not prevent his further assumption.

God bless,

Carson

 

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


Hi Blackbird. I do agree with you. Elijah, and Enoch, are the two Biblically recorded folks who did not die. Moses’ death is recorded, I believe he is buried somewhere.

Anyhoodilly, every time I post the above verse, I get someone telling me, “what about Elijah, and Enoch. They didn’t die.” But, if you think like we do, they will die, in Revelation’s prophecy, therefore fufilling the above verse.

No mention of Mary's death in Revelation, so therefore, I believe, while comparing scripture against scripture, she must allready be dead.

 

Quote from Carson:

"So? Jesus died and was buried as well. And he subsequently rose from the dead in the
resurrection."
______________________________________________________

Did you really mean Christ rose IN the resurrection ?

John 11:25 says:
" Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life:
he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live"

How does this affect things? He said he IS the resurrection.

 

Curtis
Now who are the dead prophets in Revelation ? Are they Elijah and Moses ? Seriously, I do have a point, but need an answer first. And yes, it is a loaded question.

Rev 11 says nothing about "dead prophets" doing anything while dead. Neither do we see that the "witnesses" in Rev 11 are Moses and Elijah.

In Christ,

Bob

 

You are wrong.

Mary's Tomb IS a topic well known in the RCC and almost all accept that she died. Being Bodily ASSUMED INTO HEAVEN after being raised to life - is an argument made that LIKE CHRIST she was taken bodily into heaven, LiKE CHRIST she was not allowed to undergo decay.

There is no Bible statement that to be assumed into heaven - you must not have been raised from the dead or have died.

Therefore imputing a late Catholic notion to the Jewish text "The Assumption of Moses" such that "Moses could not have died" is just silly.

There is no need to inject that meaning into it AND even the arguments for Mary's assumption into heaven do not require it.

Carson - writes -
If Moses was assumed into heaven, it most certainly occurred after his death and burial: events which do not prevent his further assumption.

That is true but here you seem to contradict your own statement above - what am I missing?

In Christ,

Bob