The World

BroShane · Apr 2, 2006

Originally posted by npetreley:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by BroShane:
Your choice of vocation has nothing to do with wheter you presented the scripture accurately or not, which you didn't, for the reasons I have already given.

Duh, if you say so it must be true, despite my explanations to the contrary. [/QUOTE]Here are your "explanations" :

Jesus wants the world to know Him, but He immediately follows that with the qualification, they also, whom you have given me. So when He says the message is to go out into the world, the purpose is to gather those whom God has given Him. Not to gather every person.

"They also" cannot refer to the disciples. They are in addition to the disciples. But "they also" are given to Jesus out of the world. Just as it says, "All the Father gives me WILL come to me". Not "MAY come to me if they believe, but WILL".

The passage STARTS with Jesus declaring that this applies to people OTHER than the disciples. It then tells you the way by which they come (belief). Then it tells you who these people are. "[they also -- the ones that aren't these only] whom you have given me".

Your interpretation rips that line totally out of context and places it back on the disciples. Now THAT would be pointless and repetetive.

Please don't pretend to tell me how English works. I'm an editor.

I would say this qualifies as one "explanation" reworded and repeated as if the repetition would, somehow, make it true.

Unless you have anything further to add, I'll let what I said stand.

JackRUS · Apr 2, 2006

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JackRUS:
And how is the term "world" to be determined in this verse?:

"And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our’s only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2

Please note the use of the term "whole" before you decide.

Well there goes the third point of Calvinism out the window folks.

Every nation under heaven. Oops! The third point just flew back in the back door.

BTW, how do you define the word "propitiation" in that same verse? Because that is where the third point of Arminianism goes out the window. [/QUOTE]The term "propitiation' means atoning victim. It means that God the Father was satisfied by Jesus' atonement for our sins on the cross.

"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall
bear their iniquities." Isa. 53:10-11

Here is the 3rd. point of Arminianism. Kindly show me how 1 John 2:2 nullifies it:

3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement

Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

(This quote is from a Reformed site BTW)

http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/trf/part_6.html

Calvibaptist · Apr 2, 2006

Originally posted by JackRUS:
Here is the 3rd. point of Arminianism. Kindly show me how 1 John 2:2 nullifies it:

3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement

Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

(This quote is from a Reformed site BTW)

http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/trf/part_6.html [/QB]

The Arminian belief in a "universal atonement" makes 1 John 2:2 say, "He is the possible propitiation for our sins." According to this paragraph, God is not really satisfied with the death of Christ. He is only possibly satisfied because Christ's death saves no one. This is why I say you either have to, as an Arminian, reinterpret a technical term like propitiation to only mean "possible satisfaction," or you have to, as a Calvinist, understand that the phrase "whole world" has multiple meanings depending on context.

In another thread about 3 weeks ago, I listed 15 verses from both the Old and New Testaments where the phrases "whole world" and "world" were used in about 7 different ways, none of them meaning "every person who has ever lived or will ever live." I got no rebuttals, but just a major ignoring by the Arminians on this list. I figure that is just typical.

npetreley · Apr 3, 2006

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
In another thread about 3 weeks ago, I listed 15 verses from both the Old and New Testaments where the phrases "whole world" and "world" were used in about 7 different ways, none of them meaning "every person who has ever lived or will ever live." I got no rebuttals, but just a major ignoring by the Arminians on this list. I figure that is just typical.

At least you got ignored. I got told I don't understand English by someone who mangled the order of the text beyond recognition.

JackRUS · Apr 3, 2006

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JackRUS:
Here is the 3rd. point of Arminianism. Kindly show me how 1 John 2:2 nullifies it:

3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement

Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

(This quote is from a Reformed site BTW)

http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/trf/part_6.html

The Arminian belief in a "universal atonement" makes 1 John 2:2 say, "He is the possible propitiation for our sins." According to this paragraph, God is not really satisfied with the death of Christ. He is only possibly satisfied because Christ's death saves no one. This is why I say you either have to, as an Arminian, reinterpret a technical term like propitiation to only mean "possible satisfaction," or you have to, as a Calvinist, understand that the phrase "whole world" has multiple meanings depending on context.

In another thread about 3 weeks ago, I listed 15 verses from both the Old and New Testaments where the phrases "whole world" and "world" were used in about 7 different ways, none of them meaning "every person who has ever lived or will ever live." I got no rebuttals, but just a major ignoring by the Arminians on this list. I figure that is just typical. [/QB][/QUOTE]I supplied an explanation of the third point of Arminianism from a Calvinist site that does not fit your own model. Please show from where you got your model of a "possible satisfaction" My guess is from your own head.

It is God that was and is satisfied with Christ's finished work on the cross, and only a church from outside of orthodoxy would believe your model. Neither Arinianism or Calvinism is outside of the core orthodox beliefs of Christianity.

As for your ridulous "every person who has ever lived or will ever live." quote, that was not replied to since that type of quote is not found in Scripture.

As a matter of fact your same model does not fit Romans 3:10-12 either since it was written and given in the present tense. But that hasn't stopped Calvinists from attributing it to mean "every person who has ever lived or will ever live" now has it? Typical.

Calvibaptist · Apr 4, 2006

Originally posted by JackRUS:
I supplied an explanation of the third point of Arminianism from a Calvinist site that does not fit your own model. Please show from where you got your model of a "possible satisfaction" My guess is from your own head.

Let me take the statement you quoted line by line, so you can see it.

3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement

"Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone."

Gee, I guess I don't need to go any further, because that is exactly what I said they did to 1 Timothy 2:2. Christ's death does absolutely nothing except make salvation (redemption, atonement, propitiation) possible. They say so right here. Why do you need me to explain it when they use the exact wording?

But, let me go on...

"Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved."

So, Christ's death didn't really satisfy God. If God is satisfied in the payment made and His wrath is poured out on His Son for the sins of all men, how come some still go to hell? They don't believe, you say. Isn't unbelief a sin that Jesus died for?

"His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins."

If they had left the last phrase off, I might not have a problem with this. But His death DID put away sins.

Hebrews 9:24-26 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another -- 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

"Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it."

So, who limits the atonement? Arminians say Christ's death is ineffective unless almighty man chooses to accept it.

It is God that was and is satisfied with Christ's finished work on the cross, and only a church from outside of orthodoxy would believe your model. Neither Arinianism or Calvinism is outside of the core orthodox beliefs of Christianity.

What model are you talking about? I was stating what Arminians believe. You quoted them and didn't even understand what you were saying.

As for your ridulous "every person who has ever lived or will ever live." quote, that was not replied to since that type of quote is not found in Scripture.

Yet that is what you all want the word "world" to mean in John 3:16. If it doesn't mean that (as I have said it doesn't), then what does it mean? I thought the big deal was that we Calvinists deny that God loves everybody equally and John 3:16 is always thrown in our face and we are told we redefine the word world so that it doesn't mean world.

By that very accusation, your definition of the word "world" would have to be everybody. That would have to include every person who has ever lived or ever will live, or else God is a "respector of persons" as we keep hearing. I am just going by how you guys use the word.

As a matter of fact your same model does not fit Romans 3:10-12 either since it was written and given in the present tense. But that hasn't stopped Calvinists from attributing it to mean "every person who has ever lived or will ever live" now has it? Typical.

The issue was not the tenses of the verbs, but the way you use the noun. But, just in case you were wondering...

Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;

The word "is" in this verse is estin in the Greek, which is, in fact, a present active indicative verb.

Romans 3:11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.

Both times the word "is" is used in this verse it is estin, which is, in fact, a present active indicative verb.

Romans 3:12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."

"Have turned" and "have become" are both aorist tense, which has no reference to time, but to punctiliar action. "Is" in the last phrase is again estin - present active indicative.

Present tense means continuing action. These verses could be written "There is (continuing to be) no one righteous, no not one; There is (continuing to be) none who understands; There is (continuing to be) none who seeks after God." That should be enough to prove the point...

JackRUS · Apr 4, 2006

Calvi.

You asked:

So, Christ's death didn't really satisfy God. If God is satisfied in the payment made and His wrath is poured out on His Son for the sins of all men, how come some still go to hell? They don't believe, you say. Isn't unbelief a sin that Jesus died for?

How is that you don't know the Gospel of salvation by faith? You want to know why faith is what's needed? Read these:

Luke 7:50
John 3:16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25-26
Romans 1:16-17; 3:20-28; 4:1-6; 5:1-2; 9:30-33; 10:9-10,13
Acts 10:43; 11:14-17; 13:39; 16:30-31; 26:18
Gal. 2:16; 3:2,11-14,22; 5:4-6
Eph. 1:3,13; 2:8-9
Phil. 3:9
2 Tim. 3:15
1 John 5:12-13

And then read John 12:48, 8:24. That has been the plan of God from the beginning that Jesus gets the glory (1 Cor. 1:31). That's why God wants one to believe on His Son based on His Word. It is the height of arrogance for Calvinists to believe that Christ only died for a select group based on exactly nothing.

And I agree with the interpretation of Romans 3:10-14 meaning everyone past present and future because I am consistent in my interpretation.

Now I would like for you to do a Greek tense analysis of 1 John 2:2 and John 3:16 and try not to look at them through your Calvinistic glasses.

Calvibaptist · Apr 4, 2006

Jack, I didn't say faith wasn't necessary. That is a ridiculous assumption from my statement. I said that our unbelief was a sin that Jesus died for. If he did not die for my sin of unbelief, it wouldn't matter how much faith I had later on, my previous sin of unbelief would still go unforgiven. But He did die for the sin of unbelief as well, so when someone does believe (have faith), which is obviously biblically necessary for salvation, they are forgiven for all their previous sins.

Arminians write as if their faith is what negates their previous sin of unbelief, since the death of Christ obviously didn't do it. This gives the glory not to God, but to the person who has the faith (even if they would revolt against that concept).

As far as 1 John 2:2 and John 3:16, the verbs are present tense, but the issue we have been talking about is not whether the verbs are present tense, but whether "world" means every person. I say it doesn't; you say it does. It has nothing to do with verb tenses. It has everything to do with general nouns (world, all, etc) or specific nouns (propitiation). The general nouns in these passages have multiple meanings, while the specific nouns always mean the same thing.

JackRUS · Apr 5, 2006

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Jack, I didn't say faith wasn't necessary. That is a ridiculous assumption from my statement. I said that our unbelief was a sin that Jesus died for. If he did not die for my sin of unbelief, it wouldn't matter how much faith I had later on, my previous sin of unbelief would still go unforgiven. But He did die for the sin of unbelief as well, so when someone does believe (have faith), which is obviously biblically necessary for salvation, they are forgiven for all their previous sins.

Arminians write as if their faith is what negates their previous sin of unbelief, since the death of Christ obviously didn't do it. This gives the glory not to God, but to the person who has the faith (even if they would revolt against that concept).

As far as 1 John 2:2 and John 3:16, the verbs are present tense, but the issue we have been talking about is not whether the verbs are present tense, but whether "world" means every person. I say it doesn't; you say it does. It has nothing to do with verb tenses. It has everything to do with general nouns (world, all, etc) or specific nouns (propitiation). The general nouns in these passages have multiple meanings, while the specific nouns always mean the same thing.

Repentance is required Calvi. A person that dies still unbeliving has no remission of sins. Just like every other sin.

Don't Calvinists preach repentance? How could you not know this?

"And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." Mk 1:15

"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." Lk 13:3

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord." Acts 3:19

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:" Acts 17:30

"But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that
they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance." Acts 26:20

The World

BroShane

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JackRUS

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Calvibaptist

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npetreley

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JackRUS

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Calvibaptist

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JackRUS

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Calvibaptist

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JackRUS

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