No Water in Romans 6:3

Gee, this post is like a "breath of fresh air."

MEE

 

Yep! And the holy Spirit comes when the water is applied, and the words, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit" are recited, per Matthew 28:19.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!

 

An interesting topic indeed ...one of the more interesting to me because it is SO rich with ritual and symbolism and the sacred and profound.

Quote: Hey folks. Lest we forget, there are two baptisms, remember?? With water and with the Holy Ghost:


Actually I believe the Jews of Jesus' time were familiar with many types of baptisms. But for the early Christian there were two types being promoted. The one and ultimately proper Baptism initiated by Christ was with water and the Spirit. Not water as opposed to the Spirit. The Baptism of John was a baptism of repentance and preceded Jesus's Baptism (again of water AND the Spirit)as a means of pointing to the fulfilling baptism Christ instituted.

This is hardly the format to do a discussion on Baptism any true service, but some rich things to contemplate include:

The OT indicators of the Christ initiated Baptism for Christians. See how water AND the Sprit are present in the following prefiguremenrts of Baptism.
Consider for example how when God created the earth, water first covered the earth. And God was MOVING over the face of the waters (Gen. 1-3) The earth is brought forth from the water. The earth is immersed in water. God brings forth the earth from water and he looks upon the earth and He is pleased. It could be argued that mankind is implied as being the earth. Afterall it is from the earth, from the dust that God forms Adam. On Ash wednesday the priest reminds of this point when he says ..."from dust you are and to dust you shall return.."
Adam was the first born of His initial creation. Christ was a fullfillment of the type of Adam. When Christians are baptized we too become new creations, as new Christs. That is as members, children of the family of God. In the Genesis story we see God the Father as creator, a reference to the Holy Spirit (as in moving over the waters -(like a dove!) and we can -after Christ's baptism by John see the Father who speaks as from a cloud, the Holy spirit descend like a dove and witness Christ as the fulfilment and prototype for those who enter into Christ through Baptism. And just as the initial creation was pleasing to God, we too by the cleansing action of the water and resting of the Spirit within us, God actually recognizes us and pronounces us as His children in whom "he is well pleased".

Another OT reference to baptism is of course the account of the flood. Notice how sin covers the earth. Much like our souls can become covered in sin. As a means of removing the sin from the earth Water covers the earth. Earth still represents mankind. We are still in need of the cleansing action of the water. Well where's the Spirit?
Well, remember the way that Noah was given the assurance that the earth was restored. Noah first sent out a raven, black like sin and the sin or raven Did not come back to him it was removed. Noah then sends out what?! A dove!
The dove (Holy Spirit signified) flys out over the waters ala Genesis account and Jesus's baptism et al and retrieves the definitive proof that the earth (or symbolically mankind) has been restored. Just like new Christians are restored through the cleansing of the baptismal waters and the sealing of the Holy Spirit!

Another would be the parting of the Red Sea, and the way that by the entering through the water the Israelites escape Pharaoh (their advesary or Satan) and slavery (as in slavery to sin). And God is present with them through the spiritual rock that followed them.

On what Ray says, I think to some degree what he implied is accurate if it is that in immersion in water as a form of baptism, while being proper is not the exclusive way to baptize as long as water and the Spirit are invloved.

If we think of Christ's directive to baptize with water and the Spirit in light of the other NT teaching of Baptism (i.e. we are baptized into Christ's passion and death,etc) and think about at what point in Christ's passion and death do we see the same elements of baptism. We may agree that with the thrust of the spear into Christ's side we see the blood (remember to the Jews the life or spirit of a person or animal for that case, is in the Blood. Thats why they are prohibited from consuming the blood, and we are speaking of the "Lamb of God" here so identified by John at Christ's baptism)And we see the water as it sprews from Christ's side and covers what....the ground! That is the earth. While it is not immersed (more like sprinkled) it is an obvious representative figurement to our baptism of water and Spirit.

Sorry for the length..
God Bless

[ February 05, 2004, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: Stephen III ]

 

Stephen,

You used alot of symbolistic examples there about the water from Jesus' side covering the ground and representing baptism and how the earth represents mankind and the flood representing a cleansing state (baptism). You lost me to be exact.

Putnam,

You said"
Yep! And the holy Spirit comes when the water is applied, and the words, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit" are recited, per Matthew 28:19.

That isn't how it happened in the upper room and I didn't receive it that way either. But of course you'll have to take that argument up with God if it doesn't fit into the doctrine of your "Church".

The popes who consider themselves God on earth may be able to change history for us and line it up with Catholic theology; however.

Pope Leo XIII: "We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty." (June 20, 1894; Great Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo
XIII: Benziger

Would you suppose such pious self-judgement has resulted in any great reward for Leo ?

Singer

 

Lest we forget, the advice on baptism coming from the Catholic side is also influenced by their history of infallible popes who have arrived at such sayings as that of Leo about himself being God and this jewel, Boniface VIII.

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely NECESSARY FOR the SALVATION of
every human creature to be SUBJECT TO THE
ROMAN PONTIFF (POPE)."

--POPE BONIFACE VIII, BULL UNUN SANCTUM, 1302

We see that we can't trust them on matters of salvation. Can we really believe what they claim about baptism either..?

Singer

 

Actually, I thought it made good sense!

Singer, wrong Sacrament!

the Upper Room sequence brought forth what confounded even Peter and the apostles, causing the loss of even some of His own disciples in the "bread of life" sequence in John 6!

THE HOLY EUCHARIST!

Singer, you disappoint me. "The popes who consider themselves God on earth"? I see I need to discuss things with you a bit more....

Have you already judged him, Singer? And if you noticed, He does not declare himself as God!

The magic word is vicar which means "representative," "second in command," an office created by God himself, in the person of the Son who established the Church and made Peter it's first vicar here on earth, per Matthew 16:18-19.

Sometimes I think you need to tatoo that quote on your chest so that you can read it while you are shaving in the morning!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

"…Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism which saves you now…"

1 Peter 3:20-21

 

Easy, Ray,

One who is so "saved" in that he desires to follow Jesus, believes in Jesus and His commandments, is certainly "saved" if the person dies or is martyred before he is ever baptized.

It is called the "Baptism of Desire" and I have spoke of that many times here. It is what happened to the thief on the cross who was not baptized. And for those martyrs, such as the Holy Innocents whom Herod butchered, they died for the cause of Christ, as well as the holy Martyrs in the Roman circus, those Catachumens who died before they were baptized, received a "Baptism of Blood."

And in these baptisms, which have no water, I believe the holy Spirit comes anyway at the moment of death.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Blest be God.
Blest be his holy name.
Blest be Jesus Christ, true God and true man.
Blest be the name of Jesus.
Blest be his most sacred heart.
Blest be his most precious blood.
Blest be Jesus in the most holy sacrament of the altar.
Blest be the Holy Spirit, the Consoler.
Blest be the great Mother of God, Mary most holy.
Blest be her holy and immaculate conception.
Blest be her glorious assumption.
Blest be the name of Mary, virgin and mother.
Blest be Saint Joseph, her most chaste spouse.
Blest be God in his angels and in his saints.

- The Divine Praises -

 

In Siberia or Alaska out in the middle of no where ice is easy to come by, but not water.

When I was a child I was baptized and confessed my sins to a priest. Later I began to think about it and confessed my sin to God and skipped the priest. Then even later I became a bona fide follower of Jesus. And I knew the diference. It was not at all as Catholic. I knew the difference immediately between folowing Jesus and being a Ctaholic. As for me there was a huge difference. I could put any name in place of Catholic. Jesus calls us to follow him not some church denomination or priest or building or man made rules but Him.

Matthew 4:19 says, "Follow Me and I will make you fishers of men." If you are not fishing then I would question who or what you are following. You cannot testify of God's grace without a personal relationship with Him through Jesus Christ. It's like I can never testify of what I saw if I never saw anything.

 

Easy, Ray,

One who is so "saved" in that he desires to follow Jesus, believes in Jesus and His commandments, is certainly "saved" if the person dies or is martyred before he is ever baptized.

It is called the "Baptism of Desire" and I have spoke of that many times here. It is what happened to the thief on the cross who was not baptized. And for those martyrs, such as the Holy Innocents whom Herod butchered, they died for the cause of Christ, as well as the holy Martyrs in the Roman circus, those Catachumens who died before they were baptized, received a "Baptism of Blood."

And in these baptisms, which have no water, I believe the holy Spirit comes anyway at the moment of death.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Blest be God.
Blest be his holy name.
Blest be Jesus Christ, true God and true man.
Blest be the name of Jesus.
Blest be his most sacred heart.
Blest be his most precious blood.
Blest be Jesus in the most holy sacrament of the altar.
Blest be the Holy Spirit, the Consoler.
Blest be the great Mother of God, Mary most holy.
Blest be her holy and immaculate conception.
Blest be her glorious assumption.
Blest be the name of Mary, virgin and mother.
Blest be Saint Joseph, her most chaste spouse.
Blest be God in his angels and in his saints.

- The Divine Praises - </font>[/QUOTE]How does what you wrote fit in with the doctrine of original sin? I ask becasue I was taught that if a baby was not baptized it would not go to heaven unless the original sin was washed away through baptism.

 

Last time I checked, Romans 6:3 was reminding folks that when they were baptized by immersion, it was a picture of being dead to sin and being given new life in Christ. This was mentioned so that the Roman Christians would understand what they weren't supposed to willfully sin (Romans 6:1), because when they had received Christ as Savior, they had been changed, and didn't have to do that anymore.

 

Singer, you said:

That isn't how it happened in the upper room and I didn't receive it that way either. But of course you'll have to take that argument up with God if it doesn't fit into the doctrine of your "Church".


Big "high five" on that one!!!

Tam,

 

In Siberia or Alaska out in the middle of no where ice is easy to come by, but not water.[/b]</font>[/QUOTE]But with a little heat, the ice melts to water, suitable for baptism. At least enough to baptize by pouring on and saying the Trinitine formula.

See how easy that was?

Why?

Did the priest scare you or something? What was it that had you avoid going to confession to a priest?

Well, I am a Catholic and I follow Jesus! and I can tell you, I have never followed Jesus so fervently until I bacame a Catholic!

What are the differendes, qb? Do you ever miss taking holy Communion where we Catholics believe it is Jesus' actual (not natural) body and blood? Why would you discard such a beautiful belief, a beautiful mystery given to as as a wonder gift, and subscribe something less then the wonder of this gift?

Well, while I do not proselyte, do you possiblely reject the idea that I am not "fishing" here in this conference, qb?

What makes you think I do not have a "personal relationship" with Christ Jesus, qb? Why do I go to daily Mass to receive Him, actually receive Him in the Eucharist if not to have as close a personal relationship with Christ as anyone?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


I believe in God,
the Father Almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son,
Our Lord;
who was conceived by the holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died,
and was buried.

He descended into hell;
the third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
sitteth at the right hand of God,
the Father almighty;
from thence He shall come to judge
the living and the dead.

I believe in the holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

- The Apostles Creed -

[ February 05, 2004, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: WPutnam ]

 

qb, that was never a doctrine of the Catholic Church but rather theological theory concerning the disposition of the soul of an infant who dies prematurely. And that includes the theory of "Limbo" and remains undefined today.

The precise answer is, we do not know what happens to the soul under such circumstances, but the Church speaks of the infinite mercy and justice of God, and thus at the instance of death, the infant soul is given the chance to either accept God or reject him, somehow.

Again, this is only theory...

I personally think the soul of the infant at death goes to heaven out of the pure and infinite mercy of God.

But the Church would still insist that the infant be baptized as soon as possible if for anything, remove all doubt.

My daughter is a nurse, and has on several occasions, baptized a fetus that is stillborn "conditionally," in case it is still alive at the moment.

You do realize that anyone can baptize in an emergency, don't you? Even non-Catholics for the case where a dying persons requests baptism.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

Tam.

gb93433,
Do you have a name that we could use instead ?

Putnam,
You said:
The magic word is vicar which means "representative," "second in command," an office created by God himself,

Get real, Bill. Someone reading that statement isn't going to arrive at your interpretation of it. You guys are good at modifying every statement out of the mouth of Catholicism and then telling us that we misrepresent it. Leo literally said he was taking the place of God Almighty. Don't you still fall prostrate if the present pope comes within a quarter mile? You refer to him as "Holy Father"; not Holy Vicar.

**Call NO MAN FATHER !!!

You're disappointed in me, Bill and I'm disappointed in you.

You also said:
"Sometimes I think you need to tatoo that quote on your chest so that you can read it while you are shaving in the morning!"

Bill, I haven't shaved in years. Not since I won the Best of Show in our town's centennial Beard Contest. Black Stetson hat, beard, sideburns, singing country music. Now wouldn't you like to be witnessed to by someone like that in a smoke filled bar some Saturday night!!

(P.S. I don't even breathe a word about the "Church", the pope, mass, baptism, real presence, Mary, Peter, Paul, George, Harriet or Bugs Bunny when I witness)

Singer

 

Where do you get "immersion" out of this, while certainly, baptism by immersion was the norm in those early times, so far as we can tell?

Through my "Catholic eyes," I see the statement in Romans saying we are "white as snow" (no it does not say that - just my feeling) and that we should remain that way from then on.

Yet we do sin again....

Welcome to the Sacrament of Reconsiliation per John 20:22-23!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Rome has spoken, case is closed.

Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon.

 

????????????????????????????&lt;scratching my head&gt;

And all this time, I thought we were talking about baptism!

Wewlcome to the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Rome has spoken, case is closed.

Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon.

 

Bill,

Your confusion over Tam's statement of High-5 was over your own mention of how the Holy Spirit comes.

On page two you said:

"Yep! And the holy Spirit comes when the water is applied, and the words, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit" are recited, per Matthew 28:19. "

To that I responded that it did not work that way in the upper room (the Holy Spirit did not come only after water was applied) nor did it work that way for me.

That is what Tam responded to.

Singer

 

Singer, could this mean that we have another poster that has the baptism of the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in other tongues?

BTW, Bill, the formula using the titles, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, was never used, in the Bible, upon baptizing anyone. Check it out! It's not in the Bible.

Yes, Jesus did say to baptize in the "name" of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, but the "name" that was/is to be used is Jesus Christ.

Peter said, "...Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the "name" of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...." Acts 2:38

Can't get around it, Peter knew what that name was...does that clear things up?

Although we are worlds a part when it comes to doctrine, we both believe water baptism is a must, for salvation.

Another thing, one doesn't always receive the Holy Ghost/Spirit upon being baptized.

The people of Samaria had repented, been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, but had not received the Holy Ghost/Spirit, until Peter and John layed hands on them. Acts 8:14-17

MEE

 

Who........?
Me..........?