The Relationship between God and Man

Although I strongly disagree with Calvinism (I know this is a shock...LOL), I think you are wrong in several points of the opening post.

1. Covenants do NOT require two people to agree, although they are between people. For instance, you will see in Genesis 9:12-17, God makes a covenant with people and animals. It was not necessary they agree, although we have all been grateful, I'm sure.

2. Although God provided for the salvation of everyone, not everyone will be saved. Although He has loved everyone, not all will be redeemed. That is because we have a choice, and most choose themselves and their own way of going rather than God's.

You do have some good Scriptural points up there, though, and thanks.

As a note of my own, the question must be asked, "Why do people choose as they do?" I think we can find the answer, partly, in 1 John, when he mentions that perfect love casts out fear. People are ruled by fear until they accept God's love. They long for that love, but are actually comfortable with their own fears, as that is known territory and God is unknown territory.

And so He spends history and the Bible and creation making Himself known. At least as much as we can wrap our minds around.

When I was a little girl, about three, I had the top bunk in the bedroom I shared with my younger sister. One evening my Dad was playing with us and I was on the top bunk and he told me to jump, that he would catch me. My little world came to a screeching halt -- what if he didn't catch me? For what seemed like the longest time my fear of being dropped ruled my decision-making. I refused to jump. Finally, his pursuasion won out and I jumped....and he caught me.

I think we are a lot like that with God. So many times we would rather stay in the confined quarters of what we are comfortable with in our own fears instead of jumping/falling into His arms. We build defenses, we depend on education, beauty, power, money, meditation, acts of righteousness, acts of charity, etc., to improve ourselves or at least feel better about ourselves.

But we are still the same, trembling little kids inside, living in fear of being free from it all. I mean, what is there if we can't depend on ourselves?

There's God. And He will catch those who jump.

I know Calvinists will say "but jumping is an act" or something. Never mind. Jump. As many as jump, He will catch. He hasn't dropped one of us yet!

Salvation is within reach of all.

Most don't reach.

 

Helen;

I think he probably meant that the fullfillment of the Covenant takes two instead of one (don't want to put words in his mouth though) and I don't think he said that "all" would be saved. He went on to say that "we choose who we will serve, unless I am misreading"

The “Dominion”, or Stewardship, God gave man over the earth entitled man to make his own decisions, good or bad, obedience/disobedience, and without the “Sovereign will” of
God being imposed on man’s decisions either way, and it’s a stewardship for which each
individual will be held accountable/Judged

As far as we knowing scriptures, we know enough to be saved and then we grow in Spirit and Truth by the Spirit that is in man (all men).
And then we grow in Spirit and Truth.


Titus, chapter 2
"11": For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

"12": Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

"13": Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

"14": Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


Hebrews, chapter 6
"1": Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

"2": Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

"3": And this will we do, if God permit.

"4": For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

"5": And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

"6": If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I say "amen" to what he posted unless I am misreading.

 

Me4Him,

All of this proves that you still do not know what you are arguing against.

So what is your view? Partial sovereignty? No sovereignty at all?

Are you saying that God's wrath is not necessary? Or that it was not originally included in God's plan? Is Hell God's "plan B"? I am really not sure what you mean.

"You shall call his name Jesus, for we will provide a means of salvation for His people" - that is not what it says. "He will save His people from their sins." There's the Calvinist view, and I'm not sure how much more optimistic one could be than that. It takes a pessimist to say "Jesus did what He could, but it may not be enough."

Helen correctly pointed out the problem with this statement. Perhaps you meant something else.

 

Brother Bob, I read this at the end and it looked like universalism to me:
"...rather than the correct “optimist” view of God loving, providing a means of saving all sinners, without wrath/vengence on anyone,"

Whatever, your view, as a Calvinist, of sovereignty is not what the Bible describes as God's sovereignty. Although He knows the minutae (hairs on the head, sparrows that fall), He is not a dictator of the sort Calvinism presents. He is fully sovereign and still allows man to choose. He is sovereign enough for that. Calvinism limists God's sovereignty to what man can understand. That is a false limitation.

And also, Jesus did fully pay for all sins. All people have had their sins atoned for. It is a matter of believing now, and being forgiven. It is no longer a matter of atonement. That is a done deal.

 

Helen, please don't lecture me on what I believe. I have told you over and over what I believe, and you continue to make false accusations like this one:

Here's what I posted on another thread:

If you cannot answer that question then you have no business taking anyone else to task for "limit[ing] God's sovereignty to what man can understand". If you cannot understand the difference between what I believe and what you asert that I believe then you have no business speaking against Calvinism.

And also, the passage did not say that he would atone for his people's sins, or that he would pay for his people's sins. It said that he will save his people from their sins.

 

Pharaoh did freely choose. God knew what he would choose and God completed what Pharaoh started, just as He told Moses He would. If you read Exodus you will find that there were a number of times Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

But, then, I have responded a number of times on this issue.

And you don't believe all sins were atoned/paid for on the cross?

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense -- Jesus Christ the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. Hebrews 2:9

Whatever, does your Bible leave out those verses?

 

Helen, I know Pharoah freely chose. That's the point I am trying to make. Pharoah did freely choose to disobey God, and he did freely harden his own heart, just as God had determined that he would do. You want it to be either "God ordained" or "Pharoah chose", and I am telling you that it is both, acording to the Bible.

And of course my Bible contains those verses, but I do not have to change what the angel told Joseph ("he will save his people from their sins") in order to affirm those passages too.

 

However, if I have understood you correctly, whatever, you believe that Pharaoh could ONLY have 'chosen' what he did and that he could not have 'chosen' anything else, right?

That is not a choice. That is a robot.

 

You do not understand how infinite God can ordain that a finite creature of His can make a particular choice, and that choice still be a free choice, so you reject the notion outright. Now, who is that limits God's sovereignty to what she can understand?

 

I don't claim to understand something that incredible. Maybe that's the main difference. And so I simply believe what the Bible says.

 

Helen;

Sorry I missed that quote:

"...rather than the correct “optimist” view of God loving, providing a means of saving all sinners, without wrath/vengence on anyone,"

 

Me4Him;

I may be wrong, but it still seems to say that If any man will take heed to the Spirit of God and choose that good part that shall never be taken away, repent he can be saved. But, he can also choose to reject it.

Is that what you are saying Me4Him or not?

 

The Bible says that God ordains the free choices of men. I wish you did believe it.

 

Brother Bob, Me4Him, thank you for the clarificatoin.

Whatever, you cannot have something ordained to be and then call it a free choice. That is an oxymoron.

 

Helen, Acts 4:27-28 says you can. I do wish you believed Acts 4:27-28.

 

The second verse of that, Acts 4:28, states "They did what your power and will had decided beforehand would happen."

That means the actions were decided beforehand. Those who participated were not foreordained. They participated of their own choices.