VERY confused about ecumenical movement

God decides AND God "obligates Himself" as follows "The Spirit of truth whom the Father will send WILL GUIDE YOU into ALL truth" John 16.

The alternative you provide is that each group simply "listen to its own magisterium" in addition to the Bible.

How much of a "solution" is that?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Problem Bob, is that all these churches seek the Holy Spirit...

 

Here some reading on the errors of this movement

http://www.jeremiahproject.com/prophecy/ecumen01.html
http://www.touchet1611.org/EcumenicalMovement.html

[ March 20, 2004, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: dawna ]

 

2 Tim 4:1-4 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Do not be surprised by the current state of affairs among professing Christians. The bible predicted that the time would come when people would look for teachers to tell them what they wanted to here, and believe. As the word says, “they will heap to themselves teachers”, teaching them the desires of their own lusts.

John 8:31-32 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.


John 14:6-21 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Lean on Jesus. Keep studying and praying to Him. As the above verses point out, love Him, and keep His commandments, and He will send you the Spirit of truth.

Bye for now. Y. b. In C. Keith

 

Kamoroso, can you explain why so many can study the same Word, under the guidance of the same Holy Spirit, with the same assurances...

and come to different and conflicting understanding, interpretations, and beliefs?

How can you know who is right and who is wrong?

How do you know that you have chosen correctly?

 

Here are the questions asked --

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BobRyan:

 

Amen to that Emily, I think we as christians we can agree to disagree and let our Saviour sought it out as He thinks fit, as He can see into the Hearts of Men.....

 

I like the differences!!! I mean what good is a debate forum if we all agree?

I also like the freedom to worship and interpret scripture.

Not knowing if we're absolutely right should have the effect of making us humble, and make us keep studying and searching till we find the answer.

Just my two cents.
Cotton

 

Cotton, I love what you wrote!

Emily, I'm with you on everything you've written -- I could have posted your posts -- all of them! I'm glad to find a sister who's asking the same questions I am!

My question: Since Catholics DO believe that Jesus is Lord and Savior, why do other denominations so vehemently attack Catholic practices and doctrine rather than concentrate on sharing the Gospel of Christ?

After all, I Corinthians 12:3 still holds!

"Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, 'Jesus is accursed'; and no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit." -- 1 Cor 12:3, NASB

In Christ,
Diana

 

1 Cor 14:33 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

If God is not the author of all these different doctrines, which contradict each other, then who is? If they are not true, then they are a lie. The devil is the father of lies, and those who follow in his footsteps put forth the lie also. How can it be a good thing that so many people believe so many lies?

2 Cor 11:13-15 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Emily you asked for some scriptural proof that Christ wants us to come together:

Read Jesus' prayer in John 17. It is plain that Christ wants us to be one with other believers.

Here are a few verses:
Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be ONE, as we [are].

Joh 17:21 That they all may be ONE; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be ONE in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be ONE, even as we are ONE:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in ONE; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

What troubles me with the IFBers is the fact that they are going to separate themselves until they are left with just themselves.

****BEWARE**** Of any church that says that they are the only ones that teach the right doctrine, or that the only true churches believe as they do. Yeah they will give lip service and say that other people can be saved and not be a Baptist, but you can tell by how they treat another denomination how they truly believe. How can they call someone a brother and an apostate at the same time? Or they refer to a so called Remnant that the Lord has. And only this Remnant is right.
This is a very dangerous practice.
If you encounter one, or are in one, RUN!!!!!!!

The Bible says to FLEE evil.
and this is a divisive spirit from Satan himself.
Remember what Jesus said about a house divided against itself can't stand? Satan knows this. So he sets out to divide in IFB churches by either pharasical, legalistic rules that are actually just interpretations, or down right false doctrines Like KJVOism.
They will warn you to not get involved with the "apostate, one world religion church" or you will face hell's fire. and then in the next breath declare that salvation is a PERSONAL relationship with God. And that once you are saved nothing can separate you from Christ.

Now if someone gets saved and joins a ecumenical baptist denomination like the ABC-USA, does that person lose his salvation?

The separtist IFBers talk in circles.
Christ wants us to be one with other believers to accomplish the Great Commission.

There is an universal church.
Eph 4.
disagree? What local church did Paul belong to?
Wasn't he sent from the church at Antioch?
If so his membership had to be there. yet we have him numbering himself with the Corinthian Church in 1Co 12:13, "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

What Body was he talking about?
Notice he said "WE" all baptized into one body."
He included himself in that membership.
Now if that wasn't talking about a universal church, how could paul be a member in one church (Antioch) and include himself when speaking to the Corinthian church?

The thing that separates a IFB from all other denominations is the fact that they don't believe in a universal church.
And if you follow that logic out, you will have many Bodies of Christ with Many Christ heads.

Sorry, when Christ said "ONE" he meant it!

 

John 14:14-26 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

As the scriptures above clearly state, it is those who keep the commandments of God that are promised a true manifestation of Christ. They will be given the Spirit of truth. This Spirit is the Holy Spirit, which will dwell within the believer. This is how Christ dwells within His own. Those who will be one in Christ, are those who will follow Him in this manner. Those who cannot even agree to the fact that God’s commandments should be kept, will not be one, with each other, or with God.


John 15:4-11 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing .
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love;even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

If we abide in Christ, then He will abide in us. We cannot keep the commandments of God, but God can. If He abides within us, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, who is God, then the Spirit of truth can keep the commandments within us. However, if we will not even acknowledge that the commandments should be kept, then we cannot have this experience. Again, it is those who have this experience, that are one with God, and each other. The promise is not to those who give lip service alone to Jesus, but to those who have lost their life to Him, that He might live within them.


I Jn 2:1-5 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Here again, the one who says that they know God, but does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. That is to say, that the Spirit of truth is not in him. Therefore, this individual is not one with God, and cannot be one with those who are God’s. Nor will such be able to be one with each other.

If we sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus. We can be forgiven for our sins. However, if one will not even accept that they should obey the commandments of God, then they cannot be forgiven, or be one with God. For they will not be doing, or even trying to do, that which God wishes for them to do. That is, keep the commandments. If one will not acknowledge that they must be kept, then they will not consider it a sin to break them. Thus they will not confess their sin, and cannot be forgiven of it.


I Jn 5:1-3 1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


I Jn 3:22-24 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Again, it is those who keep His commandments that dwell in Him, and have Him dwell within them.


Rev 12:17 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:13-14 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

The Father has called us through His Son Jesus Christ, to keep His commandments by the faith and testimony of Jesus . It is those who do so, that will be one with the Father through the Son, and with each other in Him. These are the ones who will have a right to the tree of life, and can enter into the city of God.

Bye for now. Y. b. In C. Keith

Oh, I almost forgot. What are IFBers?

[ March 28, 2004, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: Kamoroso ]

 

Problem Emily, is that many of the 'debatable doctrines' are too important to 'dump'.

Some promote 'once saved always saved'. They believe this to be in the Bible. Others think this is a dangerous doctrine, as it gives people a false sense of security, and leads to a rather lukewarm response to the demands of the Gospel. Some promote the sovereignty of God to the extent that free will is an illusion. Others believe that the 'Sacraments' are signs only, NOT a means of Grace, not necessary for salvation, mere symbols. Others say no to that, arguing that the Sacraments are more than signs, and are means of Grace, necessary for salvation. Some promote 'salvation by faith alone'. Others would argue against this, saying that the Bible never teaches, never says we are "saved by faith alone." They would say we are saved by grace alone, but by that Grace, we participate we 'work out' our salvation.
Some promote 'sola Scriptura'. Others state that this is a dangerous doctrine, which has lead to the formation of 100's of Protestant denominations, each one "doing what is right in his own eyes." Some believe that it is all right ot pray to the Resurrected Saints. Others believe this to be outrageous. Some honor Mary, even pray to her. Some call her 'Mediatrix' or 'Co-Redeemer'. Others see this as blasphemy. Your sentiment, Emily, I admire. Your heart is in the right place. But I'd argue with your conclusions. These disagreements are too serious simply to 'dump'. We can't just 'hold hands and sing Kum By Yah'.

 

Good answer Jude;

Also consider consider a whole 'nuther can o' worms: What's Church to a Roman Catholic, aint Church to a Protestant/(catholic), aint church to a Baptist, aint ecclesia to a SDA/JW/?, aint kahal to a Jew.

In other words, "church/ecclesis/kahal" means vastly different things to different people. Since this is in itself a FOUNDATIONAL perspective, it in turn shifts your focus in how you view other doctrine.

Cotton