Where is Hell? Part II

neal4christ · Jan 27, 2003

I am sorry for getting agitated too. I can understand the frustration as well. I really did not mean to misrepresent you, that was really the point I thought you were getting at with your argument.

I think I see the point where we diverge in our thinking, and like I said, we will probably get no further than that.

I apologize again for getting testy with you.

Neal

DHK · Jan 27, 2003

Originally posted by BobRyan:
God tells us through Solomon that The spirit of man returns to God "who gave it" at death.

(Eccl 12:7) -

The problem of course is that this is the ONLY text that says "the spirit of man" goes to heaven at death and IT makes NO distinction between "good and bad" humans. It does not say "the spirit of Good humans returns to God who gave it - but not the spirit of BAD humans".

So If we choose to believe it in its unqualified state - as it reads. Then the spirit of ALL humans returns to God at death. That is the best rendering of that text.

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I have explained this verse before. Naturally 3AngelsMom refused it. Every verse/passage must be taken in its context. A verse taken out of context only becomes a pretext for some other false doctrine. The Bible does say, "There is no God," and you can teach that from the Bible, if you wish. It is in Psalm 14:1. "The fool hath said in his heart there is no God." If you would like to be a fool and teach there is no God, go right ahead, for that is the context.
What is the context of the book of Ecclesiates. Solomonm, as a philosopher, seeks out where joy may be found in life. He is a king, and has wisdom, riches, fame, and uses all of these things to his advantage. His conclusion in all: Vanity of vanities, all is vanity, saith the preacher. Life is just pure emptiness. Now, is that really true? No, that is looking at life from the outside, from the perspective of a worldly philosopher without Christ. Eccl.12:7 does the same thing. It is the conclusion of the unsaved man who views life without Christ. What does he see when a man comes to the end of his life and dies? His body goes into the grave and begins to deteriorate and eventually turns to dust. His spirit (he hopes) returns to God. Go to any liberal funeral and listen to the minister. They have only good things to say about the deceased and pray that God will accept that person (no matter how evil he may have been) into heaven. It is the thought of an unsaved person. This is Solomon looking at life from the real of outside of God. If you go to the end of chapter 12, you will hear him state God's view. He states the conclusion of the whole matter: to fear God and keep his commandments. You cannot draw Biblical doctrine out of a Book like Ecclesiastes without putting it in the proper contesxt.
Inspiration meanst that God recorded all things accurately. That means He records accurately the devils lies as well. Will you believe them also?
DHK

3AngelsMom · Jan 27, 2003

Originally posted by neal4christ:
I am sorry for getting agitated too. I can understand the frustration as well. I really did not mean to misrepresent you, that was really the point I thought you were getting at with your argument.

I think I see the point where we diverge in our thinking, and like I said, we will probably get no further than that.

I apologize again for getting testy with you.

Neal
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Thank you, I forgive you.

Go in Peace,

God Bless.

3AngelsMom · Jan 28, 2003

Neal,

This passage kind of sums it all up.

Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ecc 3:22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

God Bless.

3AngelsMom · Jan 28, 2003

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Neal,

This passage kind of sums it all up.

Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ecc 3:22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

God Bless.
Click to expand...

Nobody wants to tackle this one?

DHK · Jan 28, 2003

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

Click to expand...

Nobody wants to tackle this one?[/QUOTE]First, read and understand my above post, then respond.
DHK

3AngelsMom · Jan 28, 2003

Originally posted by DHK:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

Click to expand...

Nobody wants to tackle this one?[/QUOTE]First, read and understand my above post, then respond.
DHK[/QUOTE]Which above post? The last post was to BobRyan......

DHK · Jan 28, 2003

my last post

BobRyan · Jan 29, 2003

DHK said Eccl.12:7 does the same thing. It is the conclusion of the unsaved man who views life without Christ. What does he see when a man comes to the end of his life and dies? His body goes into the grave and begins to deteriorate and eventually turns to dust.

While it is true that in SOME PARTS of Eccl Solomon asks us to consider the view of the lost man - that is NOT how he summs up the spiritual lessons that he has taught in the book.

In stead we see the VERY spiritual perspective of Chapter 12 holding sway.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Jan 29, 2003

Remember God in Your Youth

1 Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near when you will say, "I have no delight in them";
2 before the sun and the light, the moon and the stars are darkened, and clouds return after the rain;
3 in the day that the watchmen of the house tremble, and mighty men stoop, the grinding ones stand idle because they are few, and those who look through windows grow dim;
4 and the doors on the street are shut as the sound of the grinding mill is low, and one will arise at the sound of the bird, and all the daughters of song will sing softly.
5 Furthermore, men are afraid of a high place and of terrors on the road; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags himself along, and the caperberry is ineffective. For man goes to his eternal home while mourners go about in the street.
6 Remember Him before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed;
7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
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In Hebrews 9 we find the teaching “For it is appointed unto man ONCE to die and THEN comes the judgment” – the advice that Solomon gives under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit – in conclusion to this book – is to tell us to seek God before we die.

8 "Vanity of vanities," says the Preacher, "all is vanity!"

Purpose of the Preacher

9 In addition to being a wise man, the Preacher also taught the people knowledge; and he pondered, searched out and arranged many proverbs.
10 The Preacher sought to find delightful words and to write words of truth correctly.
11 The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; they are given by one Shepherd.
12 But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body.

13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.
14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.
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In Christ,

Bob

DHK · Jan 29, 2003

Originally posted by BobRyan:
DHK said Eccl.12:7 does the same thing. It is the conclusion of the unsaved man who views life without Christ. What does he see when a man comes to the end of his life and dies? His body goes into the grave and begins to deteriorate and eventually turns to dust.

While it is true that in SOME PARTS of Eccl Solomon asks us to consider the view of the lost man - that is NOT how he summs up the spiritual lessons that he has taught in the book.

In stead we see the VERY spiritual perspective of Chapter 12 holding sway.

Click to expand...

Here is the verse once again:
Eccl.12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

There are only two possible views here. The one I gave you already, or possibly one other.
The other view would agree with 2Cor.5:8. The verse speaks of death. The body turns to death, when one is absent from the body. The spirit returns to God, or as it says, "is present with the Lord." That harmonizes perfectly with 2Cor.5:8. Either way these verses do not teach soul sleep.
DHK

3AngelsMom · Jan 29, 2003

Originally posted by DHK:
my last post
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DUH, I know you want me to look at your last post, but the last post you made was adressed to BobRyan!

Are you wanting me to respond to it too?

3AngelsMom · Jan 29, 2003

Originally posted by DHK:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:
DHK said Eccl.12:7 does the same thing. It is the conclusion of the unsaved man who views life without Christ. What does he see when a man comes to the end of his life and dies? His body goes into the grave and begins to deteriorate and eventually turns to dust.

While it is true that in SOME PARTS of Eccl Solomon asks us to consider the view of the lost man - that is NOT how he summs up the spiritual lessons that he has taught in the book.

In stead we see the VERY spiritual perspective of Chapter 12 holding sway.

Click to expand...

Here is the verse once again:
Eccl.12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

There are only two possible views here. The one I gave you already, or possibly one other.
The other view would agree with 2Cor.5:8. The verse speaks of death. The body turns to death, when one is absent from the body. The spirit returns to God, or as it says, "is present with the Lord." That harmonizes perfectly with 2Cor.5:8. Either way these verses do not teach soul sleep.
DHK[/QUOTE]There are only 2 possible views?

What about these?

Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ecc 3:22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

And well, I can't help myself:

ALL THESE:

John 11:11 (KJV)
11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (KJV)
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

John 5:28 (KJV)
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Job 27:3 (KJV)
3All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Psalm 146:3 (KJV)
3Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

1 Timothy 6:15 (KJV)
15Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Romans 2:7 (KJV)
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Corinthians 15:51 (KJV)
51Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Psalm 115:17 (KJV)
17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Acts 2:34 (KJV)
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Psalm 6:5 (KJV)
5For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Job 19:25 (KJV)
25For I (JOB)know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV)
4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Romans 6:23 (KJV)
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Timothy 4:7 (KJV)
7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Revelation 22:12 (KJV)
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

How do you refute ALL of that?

3AngelsMom · Jan 29, 2003

Nobody wants to refute this?

DHK · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Nobody wants to refute this?
Click to expand...

There is nothing to refute. You know how to post Scripture. That is good. There is someone else on this board who likes to give lists of verses without any comment. Most people just ignore the post. Probably most will ignore this one too. You have posted verses from the Bible; so what!

Post a verse or two, and then explain it. Give us your take on it. Tell us what you are trying to say. Then ask us to refute it. Don't post the Bible and then complain to us: "Why won't anyone refute the Bible for me?"
DHK

3AngelsMom · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by DHK:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:
DHK said Eccl.12:7 does the same thing. It is the conclusion of the unsaved man who views life without Christ. What does he see when a man comes to the end of his life and dies? His body goes into the grave and begins to deteriorate and eventually turns to dust.

While it is true that in SOME PARTS of Eccl Solomon asks us to consider the view of the lost man - that is NOT how he summs up the spiritual lessons that he has taught in the book.

In stead we see the VERY spiritual perspective of Chapter 12 holding sway.

Click to expand...

Here is the verse once again:
Eccl.12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

There are only two possible views here. The one I gave you already, or possibly one other.
The other view would agree with 2Cor.5:8. The verse speaks of death. The body turns to death, when one is absent from the body. The spirit returns to God, or as it says, "is present with the Lord." That harmonizes perfectly with 2Cor.5:8. Either way these verses do not teach soul sleep.
DHK[/QUOTE]There are only 2 possible views?

What about these?

Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ecc 3:22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

It said that ALL return to dust again. Man and beast. Not one goes to the grave and the other to heaven or hell.

And well, I can't help myself:

ALL THESE:

John 11:11 (KJV)
11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Jesus called death 'sleep' twice, and then when they asked Him He said 'he is dead'. EVEN Jesus called death 'sleep'.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (KJV)
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

It says they are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The Lord will ascend with a shout, a trump, and the voice of the Archangel, and the DEAD, who were just called 'asleep' in the last verse, will RISE first.

John 5:28 (KJV)
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

They that are IN the graves will hear His voice. If they were in heaven how would they hear His voice from the graves?

29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

All will be resurrected, some to LIFE, and others to damnation. Does not say some to LIFE and some to life of damnation. The wicked do not receive immortal bodies.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

dust+breath=living soul

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

dust-spirit= DUST!

Job 27:3 (KJV)
3All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Job identifies the breath that is in him as the Spirit of God.

Psalm 146:3 (KJV)
3Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

When the breath leaves, his body returns to the earth and IN THAT VERY DAY, his thoughts perish. NO CONSCIOUSNESS.

1 Timothy 6:15 (KJV)
15Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

GOD alone has immortality. GOD.

Romans 2:7 (KJV)
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11For there is no respect of persons with God.

Immortality is given to the just, and indignation, wrath, tribulation, and anguish will be upon the wicked, no mention of them receiving immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:51 (KJV)
51Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Death called sleep AGAIN.

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

At the last trump, not at a secret rapture before a 7 year tribulation the dead will be raised (the same dead that were just called 'those who sleep') incorruptable, or 'translated' into immortality, and WE, those alive shall be changed too.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

MUST. That means that it HAS NOT happened yet.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

ONLY then can it be said that death has been defeated forever!

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Psalm 115:17 (KJV)
17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

If you are dead, you cannot praise God. If you were in heaven don't you think that you would be praising Him? And if you think that is referring to the wicked, if they were dead and 'in hell' do you really think that they would be trying to praise God?

Acts 2:34 (KJV)
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

David is not ascended. That is in Acts. AFTER the special resurrection, and after Jesus ascended.

Psalm 6:5 (KJV)
5For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

In death people DO not remember God, and cannot give Him thanks. Isn't that strange. If I went to heaven that is the first thing I would do!

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

WE who are alive know that we will die, but the dead DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING. Their memory is forgotten. Now, I know that if I went to heaven I would TOTALLY remember how I got there, and why I wanted to go!

Job 19:25 (KJV)
25For I (JOB)know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

He will STAND on the earth, not come close and then fly away. HE WILL STAND. And IN our flesh we will see Him. NOT IN SPIRIT, in FLESH, with our eyes. AFTER worms destroy the flesh. Now, if Job was already in heaven, wouldn't he have already seen God? hmm.

Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV)
4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The SOUL that sins will die. Basic math again dust+breath=living soul. THAT living SOUL will die. THE WHOLE THING. The entire MAN.

Romans 6:23 (KJV)
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wage is death. If I have a job and the agreement was $5 an hour. And every week when I got my check I figured it out and they were paying me $2 an hour, don't you think I would be mad? Same thing here. The wage is death. Eternal punishment would be a $2 wage. A total rip off, a scam, and a lie. Last I checked, God was fair, just and DOES NOT LIE.

2 Timothy 4:7 (KJV)
7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Timothy had it right! He knew that he would not receive his reward until the LAST DAY. Now, if he was in heaven, would that be his reward?

Revelation 22:12 (KJV)
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

And this makes it all work. HIS REWARD IS WITH HIM. Now, if all the 'dead in Christ' were coming with Him in 'spirit' to be reinserted into their bodies, then WHY, oh WHY would He need to bring the reward for EVERY MAN according to their works?

How do you refute ALL of that?

DHK · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

There are only 2 possible views?

What about these?

Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ecc 3:22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

It said that ALL return to dust again. Man and beast. Not one goes to the grave and the other to heaven or hell.
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I have explained this to you before. Still you do not listen. I do not accept your faulty doctrine especially when you try to prove it from the Book of Ecclesiastes. Ecclesiastes, overall, does not give God's viewpoint on life, but rather the viewpoint of a secular philosopher, that of Solomon. That is the way he was viewing life, as he wrote the book. His theme: "Vanity of vanities saith the preacher, all is vanity." That verse recurs throughout the book. It is true for the unsaved person, but is it true for the believer? Is it true that your life is full of emptiness, not worth living for, full of despair, void of hope, looking forward only to death? Is that life for you? That, says Solomon, is what life is like for a person without God, and without Christ. It is miserable and hopeless. And when he views eternity without God, he doesn't see any difference between man and beast--just like the evolutionist. Man is animal after all isn't he. That is what this verse is teaching. Both man and beast go the grave. We are both part of the animal kingdom; there is no difference. Solomon speaks as one out of despair. He says in verse 20 that all go to one place and all return to dust, and then in verse 21 questions the very existence of an afterlife.
He is looking on life as a secular philosopher. You cannot use these verses to prove your doctrine of soul sleep, for you are taking them out of the context of the book.

And well, I can't help myself:

ALL THESE:

John 11:11 (KJV)
11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Jesus called death 'sleep' twice, and then when they asked Him He said 'he is dead'. EVEN Jesus called death 'sleep'.
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Let's get this straight before we go any further. The Bible uses the word "sleep" sometimes as a synonym for "dead." It is not teaching soul sleep. It is simply a synonym, not a different doctrine. Let's use another verse first, then come back to this one. Look at 1Cor.11:30

(1 Cor 11:30 KJV) For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
--Because of the abuse of the Lord's Table in Corinth, the judgement of God had fallen on many of the believers, and it had fallen hard. For some of them, God made them weak; others He made sick; and still others He killed! "And many sleep," is a phrase that means "and many are dead." They died because of their disobedience to God. They were dead and buried. Many sleep. Many are dead. The two are synonymous. There is no great mystery here, and nothing hard to understand.

In John 11, Jesus said of Lazarus that he sleeps, and we go to wake him. He said that he is dead and we go to make him alive. He was speaking in slightly figurative language. Sleep meant death. Lazarus was dead. Jesus then came out and plainly told them so. So Lazarus was dead, and Jesus raised him from the dead. What did Jesus bring to life? The body of course! The spirit was never dead to begin with. What exactly happened to the spirit at that time, we will never know; the Bible does not tell us. You can wait and ask Lazarus. There is nothing here that proves soul sleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (KJV)
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

It says they are asleep.
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So? It says they are asleep--meaning dead. I have no problem with that, and I don't think any one else does either. It doesn't prove soul sleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The Lord will ascend with a shout, a trump, and the voice of the Archangel, and the DEAD, who were just called 'asleep' in the last verse, will RISE first.
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That is right. The dead were called asleep because "asleep," as we have seen sometimes means dead. That still does not prove soul sleep.

John 5:28 (KJV)
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

They that are IN the graves will hear His voice. If they were in heaven how would they hear His voice from the graves?
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"to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (2Cor.5:8) I know that if the Lord does not come back first, and I die that I will be with the Lord in Heaven. If I died right now I will go to Heaven. That I know. They may bury my body; but I will go to Heaven. My soul (mind, emotions, i.e., brain) will also cease to function. But my spirit will go to Heaven. And I will await there the resurrection of my body. That is what would happen should I die tonight.

That is what Jesus is teaching. Of course they can hear if they are in Heaven. He is speaking of their spirits. But on that Resurrection Day, He will cause those bodies to come alive. Spirit and body will once again be joined together in a glorified body. You don't have worry how he is going to do that miracle; just believe in faith that he will accomplish it.

29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

All will be resurrected, some to LIFE, and others to damnation. Does not say some to LIFE and some to life of damnation. The wicked do not receive immortal bodies.
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There is no such thing as a resurrection without a body. ALL WILL BE RESURRECTED! Now that is just what you said. If the body is not resurrected what is? Everytime resurrection is spoken of in the Bible it speaks of the body. There is no such thing as a "spirit-resurrection," as the J.W.s try to teach.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

dust+breath=living soul
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No, this only describes how God created man, and how man differs in essence from animals. This does not add to your argument of soul sleep. You have yet to prove anything yet.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

dust-spirit= DUST!
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I have already been through this with you. It is a verse from Ecclesiates, thoroughly explained in a post above. To be absent from the body (the body turns to dust) is to be present with the Lord ("the spirit returns unto God"). The two verses teach the same thing don't they. What they don't teach is soul sleep.

Job 27:3 (KJV)
3All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Job identifies the breath that is in him as the Spirit of God.
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So? He identified himself as a saved person. I imagine he was. I have the Spirit of God in me too.

Psalm 146:3 (KJV)
3Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

When the breath leaves, his body returns to the earth and IN THAT VERY DAY, his thoughts perish. NO CONSCIOUSNESS.
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There is muh poetry in the Psalms, and thus figurative speech. The psalmist here describes the death of an unsaved man: a prince, he says, of whom not to trust. When he dies: he expires, his body returns to the ground (becomes dust), and he ceases to think. Most people do when they die. Have you ever tried speaking to a corpse at a funeral? They don't answer back.

1 Timothy 6:15 (KJV)
15Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

GOD alone has immortality. GOD.
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That is right, and at the resurrection He will give that immortality to others as well. Notice the same verse says "whom no man hath seen, nor can see." Yet at the resurrection, in our glorified bodies we shall see Him as He is.

Romans 2:7 (KJV)
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11For there is no respect of persons with God.

Immortality is given to the just, and indignation, wrath, tribulation, and anguish will be upon the wicked, no mention of them receiving immortality.
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You are not contradicting yourself, are you. You just emphatically pointed out that only God could have immortality, so I want to know how you reconcile this also. I have already told you what it means.
However, just as the just will receive a body that will last forever at the first resurrection (the resurrection of the just) so will the unjust receive a like body at the resurrection of the unjust (the second resurrection) at the Great White Throne Judgement, at which time they will be thrown in the lake of fire and live in torment forever and ever.

1 Corinthians 15:51 (KJV)
51Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Death called sleep AGAIN.
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And so it is. So?? "We shall not all be dead" It proves nothing about soul sleep.

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

At the last trump, not at a secret rapture before a 7 year tribulation the dead will be raised (the same dead that were just called 'those who sleep') incorruptable, or 'translated' into immortality, and WE, those alive shall be changed too.
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I don't agree with your timing. There is no suggestion that this event is after the Tribulation. However it is the dead that is raised. They once had a corruptible body, and are at once given an incorruptible body. It happens in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye--instantaneously. It is the rapture.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

MUST. That means that it HAS NOT happened yet.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

ONLY then can it be said that death has been defeated forever!

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
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The ultimate victor of death and sin is the resurrection. At the resurrection of Christ, He conquered all of these: death, sin, the grave. Because He rose from the dead is evidence to the believer that the Christian will also rise from the dead. Until that time comes, we are thankful to God who gives us victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Psalm 115:17 (KJV)
17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

If you are dead, you cannot praise God. If you were in heaven don't you think that you would be praising Him? And if you think that is referring to the wicked, if they were dead and 'in hell' do you really think that they would be trying to praise God?
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Again, looking at life from this side of Heaven, that is true. Don't go carrying on any conversations with those lying wait in the morgue and you will be okay. I have a friend that works in a morgue. She does autopsies. But she doesn't carry on conversations with those that she "works with." As the Psalmist said: "the dead praise not the Lord," and that is exactly what he meant by it. Dead bodies don't make a lot of noise.

Acts 2:34 (KJV)
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

David is not ascended. That is in Acts. AFTER the special resurrection, and after Jesus ascended.
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This is because the resurrection has not taken place yet. His body is not yet ascended into Heaven, but rest assured; David is there. He is not in Hell!

Psalm 6:5 (KJV)
5For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

In death people DO not remember God, and cannot give Him thanks. Isn't that strange. If I went to heaven that is the first thing I would do!
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Again, the psalmist speaks of the body. The context is clear. There is no one in a 3' x 6' box 6' under the ground who shall give you thanks. And if there is I don't want to hear from him. Obviously he is speaking of the body, you know the one that is in the coffin.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

WE who are alive know that we will die, but the dead DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING. Their memory is forgotten. Now, I know that if I went to heaven I would TOTALLY remember how I got there, and why I wanted to go!
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First of all that's not even what Solomon is teaching here. His point is that soon after death, people forget about you. Sad, but true. That's life, Solomon says.
Furthermore, as in other verses, Solomon speaks of the body once it is dead. Dead bodies don't know much, in fact they don't know anything--that's why it's okay to give away your brain for an organ donation. Your body doesn't know anything anyway.

Job 19:25 (KJV)
25For I (JOB)know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

He will STAND on the earth, not come close and then fly away. HE WILL STAND. And IN our flesh we will see Him. NOT IN SPIRIT, in FLESH, with our eyes. AFTER worms destroy the flesh. Now, if Job was already in heaven, wouldn't he have already seen God? hmm.
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Yes, people who are saved, go to Heaven, and there in their spirit can see God. But someday Job's body will be raised, and he will stand on the earth. His flesh will have his spirit in him.

Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV)
4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The SOUL that sins will die. Basic math again dust+breath=living soul. THAT living SOUL will die. THE WHOLE THING. The entire MAN.
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The expression regarding soul here is simply an expression that refers to man. "The 'one' that sins shall die." --anyone. Your math is still wrong.

Romans 6:23 (KJV)
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wage is death. If I have a job and the agreement was $5 an hour. And every week when I got my check I figured it out and they were paying me $2 an hour, don't you think I would be mad? Same thing here. The wage is death. Eternal punishment would be a $2 wage. A total rip off, a scam, and a lie. Last I checked, God was fair, just and DOES NOT LIE.
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Your analogy does not make any sense.
The wages of sin is death (eternal death in contradistinction to eternal life).
A wage, as you say is something you deserve, as in $5.00 per hour. You worked for it. You deserve it. That is your wage, that which you are entitled to. God says my wage is death. That is what I deserve; that is what I am entitled to, because of my sin. My sin entitles me to eternal death--separation from God for all eternity in a place called Hell. I don't want that wage. It's fixed; you can't get out of it. The wages of sin is death. However, Jesus came and paid the penalty for me. I deserved to die. That's what my wage was. Jesus paid it for me. He died in my place. He took my place on the cross, so that I don't have to pay anything. I simply accept His payment as a gift. Salvation is a free gift of God. The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Timothy 4:7 (KJV)
7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Timothy had it right! He knew that he would not receive his reward until the LAST DAY. Now, if he was in heaven, would that be his reward?
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First off that was Paul, not Timothy. Paul says "at that day," not the "last" day. "That" day refers to the Judgement seat of Christ described in 1Cor.3:11-15, which will take place in Heaven during the time of the Tribulation.

Revelation 22:12 (KJV)
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

And this makes it all work. HIS REWARD IS WITH HIM. Now, if all the 'dead in Christ' were coming with Him in 'spirit' to be reinserted into their bodies, then WHY, oh WHY would He need to bring the reward for EVERY MAN according to their works?
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First we still believe in a resurrection, not a reinsertion, as you call it. Just trust God to do the miracle; after all He is omnipotent is He not?
He brings His reward with Him. What does that indicate? As I have mentioned many times already the rapture is an instanteous event taking place in the "twinkling of an eye." The fact that He brings His reward with Him would only give more credence to the view that the Judgement Seat of Christ, when the believers are judged according to their works (not for their salvation) will take place.
DHK
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archie · Jan 30, 2003

Hell in the center of the earth. Lake of Fire the Bible is not clear. From the questionw where is hell and the lake of fire?

3AngelsMom · Jan 30, 2003

DHK,

That was fun watching you dance around the WORD of GOD.

NOT

I guess the whole Bible is a metaphor and symbolic unless of course YOU need it to prove another false doctrine.

Let's see "spirit resurrection" that would be YOU who said that, every time it has been said. Are YOU a Jehovah's Witness, because you seem to credit them each time?

It is YOU who believes in reinsertion so quit trying to credit ME with YOUR false doctrine! You think you are separated from your body in spirit form at death and then at the resurrection you are 'similtaneously' put back in and given a new body. THAT IS REINSERTION. If you take something out and then put it back in, THAT is reinsertion. You believe in separation and reinsertion.

Your 'logic' makes no sense and you are casting away the Word of God for your doctrines of men.

May you live to prove to God in the Judgement that you did all you could in the light that you were given.

Good Bye.

Carson Weber · Jan 30, 2003

Hi 3AngelsMom & DHK,

Who believes what? What is the disagreement? I tried to follow your conversation, but it left me very confused.

God bless,

Carson

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