Do you believe......?

Frank, Frank, Frank. Are you upset about my other post where I asked you use scripture correctly?

Think upon your statement above: "Furthermore, those in the ark were overwhelmed by water, This is the definition as it appears in the context of new testament baptism for the remission of sins."

And yet, those in the ark (which is picture of Jesus, isn't it?) remained dry.

What IS the Gospel of Jesus, Frank? That we must be baptized? That we must speak in tongues? That we must repent? That we must confess?

This is the will of God: That every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life.

 

Willow2,

The answer to your two questions is NO! NO! Baptism has nothing to do with salvation. That is an act of obedience(works). Salvation is faith NOT WORKS(Eph.2:8,9). See also Gal.2:16,21. John 3 is not talking about water. It's talking about two births, flesh and Spirit(3:6). Your born again by believing the word of God((1Pet.1:23). The water is the Holy Spirit(Jn.7:37-39; Eph.5:26). 1Pet.3:21 says that water is a "like figure" (a picture) of the baptism that saves you(1Cor.2:13). Baptism is a picture of death, not life(Rom.6:3). It's a picture of the death, burial, resurrection of the Lord(1Cor.15:1-4). It's an outward manifestation of your already inward faith. Whether or not you get baptized, has nothing at all to go to heaven. If you believe in baptism, confirmation, or communion, or church attendance or any other work in order to be saved, you have believe in another gospel and still an unbeliever in need of salvation. Jn.6:28,29

 

When Jesus says, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved," is He saying faith plus an act of obedience is necessary for salvation? In that case, salvation is faith plus works.

Or, is He not saying that neither faith nor Baptism is a human work? Both are purely passive. We receive faith and baptism from the outpouring of the Holy Spirit given to us. So we are saved by sheer grace and not by any human work of faith or baptism.

 

John Gilmore,

I am pretty sure that you are quoting from Mark 16:16. The verse says: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that BELIEVETH NOT SHALL BE DAMNED"

Notice it does not say, he that believeth not and does not get baptized shall be damned. Baptism is not the damnation factor, not believing is. He that believeth and is baptized is saved. It is also true, he that believeth and rides his bike is saved. Believing is the saving factor, outside of any kind of work whatsoever.

 

Only unbelief damns. But, is faith a work that we do to please God? Or, is belief purely passive on our part, a gift we receive from the Holy Ghost?

If you're going to change God's Word, at least keep the passive sense, "...he that believeth and is . . ." You fill in the blank.

 

Not to muddy the waters... but in the Bible study I'm in we've been studying what it means to be a disciple. Being saved is one thing, being a disciple is another thing.

For salvation, belief is the only factor. Every child in our church knows John 3:16.

However, John 3:15 capsulizes it further:

It is belief in Christ, His finished work on the cross, and His atonement for our sins that saves. Baptism is not a factor in salvation. To follow Christ's example and be baptized can be the first step in discipleship, I think. But htat of course, is just my humble opinion.

 

Yet isnt baptism a paralleled idea of Faith that we were raised from the dead in Christ by God.

and the only way for that to occur is if we believe or accept the truth that We have faced our God and pleaded mercy before him. that we Have been judged spiritually dead and guilty before the violation of His will and Law.

that we have been notified that God has prepared a substitute to take our place in death. and we need no longer fear the penalty of death.

that our old spirit is in death and God has given us a new spirit. this being the spirit of his son. Jesus. (the only spirit that is justified to be resurrected.)

that spirit being risen from the dead, we now possess a spirit that is need no longer stand before God under violation of the imputed curse. and that our spirit that is righteous also is eternal.

that we now possess the eternal righteous nature of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Who Has defeated every power against us and we have the right to sit by Gods side while HE rounds up the forces that are unaware they have been defeated and are now powerless.

the action of baptism isnt meaningless.

when I was baptised 25 years ago..I took it seriously as The meanings behind the action is powerful in my understanding of Who I am in God.

Me2

 

Hi Joshua,

It's good to see a fellow Texan on the board. I encourage you to involve yourself with the pro-life group there in Huntsville, which was started as an off-shoot from the pro-life organization I was involved heavily with in Bryan, TX while a student at Texas A&M University.

You wrote, "Being saved is one thing, being a disciple is another thing."

I would heartily disagree with you. Discipleship is part and parcel with the Christian vocation. To be a Christ-ian means to be anointed as a priest, prophet, and king after that of Jesus Christ. Jesus cannot be Saviour without being Lord.

I encourage you to share these verses with your Bible study group:

"Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Mt 7:21).

"You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (James 2:19-24).

Faith is not just a mere "belief in Jesus", but an entire way of life, which radically involves the Christian's entire following of Jesus the Rabbi. St. Paul sums up this vocation as the "obedience of faith" (Romans 1:5; 16:26); Christian faith isn't mere intellectual rigor; it's an obedience of love - a life lived out, and it is an obedience that extends from the point of Baptism until death.

For salvation, belief is the only factor. ... Baptism is not a factor in salvation.

Oh, if I only could have an hour with you and go over John's Gospel in depth - the riches I could share with you!

Consider these points, brother -

Look at the end of John, Chapter 2 and see what Jesus does with those who believe in him:

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs which he did; but Jesus did not believe himself to them, because he knew all men and needed no one to bear witness of man; for he himself knew what was in man."

It is at this point when John introduces Nicodemus as a "man" of the Pharisees:

"Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicode'mus, a ruler of the Jews." (John 3:1)

Nicode'mus was a representative of this group of "men" who believed in Jesus, yet Jesus did not believe himself unto them for the reason that he knew what was in man. Jesus then goes into his "Born Again" discourse, emphasizing the need to be born anothen. Anothen is a Greek word with 2 meanings: (1) Again and (2) From Above. Nicode'mus understands anothen with the first meaning and Jesus intends the second meaning. With this in mind, I encourage you to read the rest of their discourse and see how Jesus is drawing Nicode'mus to his own understanding: that man must be born "from above", which means to be born of the Holy Spirit, which entails being born "of water and Spirit".

Every chapter of John's Gospel flows together in a seamless fashion, not to be separated entirely as seamed together disparate passages, and if I had an hour or more with you personally, I would go into great detail and depth and show you how this is so, but I can only give you a summary here.

Right after Jesus' discourse with Nicode'mus - before anything else - John records the following:

"After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized." (John 3:22)

In John 2, the six stone jars that held the water Jesus transformed from water into wine were not just any sort of jars. They were "for the Jewish rites of purification" (John 2:6), which are specifically outlined in Numbers 19:11 and following. I encourage you to read this chapter as the background context to John 2. In it, we read:

"Then a man who is clean shall take some hyssop, dip it in this water, and sprinkle it on the tnet and on all the vessels.." (Nm 19:18)

The English "dip it" is a translation of the Greek word for "baptism". Also, compare Numbers 19:12 with the combination of John 1:29; 1:35; 1:43; and 2:1.

The only other place before John 3 where we witness "water" in combination with "the Spirit" is at Jesus' own baptism. See John 2:29 and following:

"John testified further, saying, 'I saw the Spirit come down like a dove from the sky and remain upon him. I did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'on Whomever you see the Spirit come down and remain, he is the one who will baptize with the holy Spirit.'"

The whole point of John recording Jesus' discourse with Nicodemus (wherein the famous passage of John 3:16 is found) is to show that man's nature must be recreated through the waters of baptism, that man must be born from above by receiving the Holy Spirit when he is baptized, just as how the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus Christ at Jesus' Baptism when he was baptized by John, thus anointing Jesus for the work he had to do.

With all of this as background, read the account of Paul in Ephesus, regarding the disciples of John and see what St. Paul's natural response was when the disciples of John answered his question as to whether they had received the Holy Spirit. This is found in Acts 19:1 and following.

 

Alright, lets talk about this.

Where in the Bible does it say that "Baptism" is a "WORK"?

I don't believe that Baptism "ALONE" can save a person. I believe as all the scripture teach that:
Truth, faith, repentance, confession, and Jesus' baptism saves.

It's men that separated these things that GOD looks for.

So answer that question with a direct scripture. Not you definition of things.

Where does it say in the bible that "FAITH ALONE" Saves" you?

 

My answer is yes to the first question (Mark 16:all, Acts 2:37-40, 1 Peter 3:18-22, Rom 6:all). How do you read these passages?
________________________________________________
So Tazman...you are saying that you donot believe in a death bed confession then?
________________________________________________
To your second question, Is not an issue of salvation. (i.e. Terms of peace with God). I think the question may be in error. Help me out, is there a scripture that the Lord supper is required to come to peace with GOD. It seem through scripture that those who take it are taking it because they are at peace with God in Recognition of Jesus. </font>[/QUOTE]No i was not saying that i believed that a person had to be baptized or partake of the lords supper...i just wanted to know what others felt about this.

I believe as long as a person confesses with thy mouth & believes within there hearts that the lord jesus suffered & blead for there sin's & died & roes again on the 3rd day...thats good enough for me....all the rest is more of a symbolic thing in my opinion, yes i believe its good to beable to do this....but i don't believe a person has to do this to enter into heaven.

Because remember the 2 theives on the cross beside jesus...he told the one that he would see him in paradise? </font>[/QUOTE]Let's turn your "OPINION" into fact.
Your Opinion is probably based on scriptures taken out of context and the lack of acceptance of "ALL" passages in the bible.

Don't pick and Choose!

You say

Read Matthew 9:4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? 6But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home."

Did Jesus have the "Authority ON EARTH to Forgive sins?????

Yes/No?

Your answer may depend on if you take him at HIS word, but it's clearly YES.

So, was Jesus still alive when the Thief on the cross Believed, Repented, confessed in/to Jesus?

Jesus is no longer on Earth, but sent his Holy Spirit like he promised.

Jesus forgave allot of people before he died and upon His ressurection completed the institution of HIS BAPTISM (Not Johns or anyone elses) Rom 6:1-6.

Your problem is that you think God will be crule and not a "Loving Father" according to your definition, if he were to not except someone on their "Death BeD".

Well, my God is BIGGER than that and if people want to wait till the last minute to come to him, then they will be like the "Ten Virgins" and the people in Noah's day. The bible said God waited "Patiently" in the days of Noah.

Acts 17:26-28 says that God sets up the time and place where men shall meet. He did it for the eunich.

PLease answer question.

 

Carson,

Thanks for your post! I've not actually met another Texan on here yet! Yee-Haw! Glad to meet you, bro, and look forward to discussing this with you in depth sometime.

The two words in question are pistis or belief/faith and baptisma or baptism.

I'll try to break this down as best I can... I'm trying to go back in Bible Study almost a year, and my notes are in typical "Josh is writing too fast" fashion.

Pistis literally means: faith, belief, trust in, to put your full weight upon. For instance, I have my full weight on this chair I currently sit in. I trust that it will hold me up as I type. Likewise, belief in Christ means to put your "full weight" and to believe wholeheartedly in His finished work on the cross, and in the full person of Who He said He is.

Baptisma has three seperate meanings: "to be identified with, to be placed into, or to be immersed in." Baptisma is only used a few times in Scripture to refer to "water-baptism". The rest of the time, it generally refers to "being identified with" or "to be placed into." I think it is used primarily in the description of John the Baptist and his ministry. For example, in Matthew 3:13-17, it is referring to water baptism (obviously).

But in Luke 12:50, we see a different baptism reference used:

Is he referring to His water-baptism here? No, he is speaking about the division that identification with Him will bring about. One more example, 1 Corinthians 12:13:

This does not refer to water-baptism either, but of our being placed into one Body.

Now, is it belief and then baptism that saves? Or just belief? There are Scriptures that refer to both, but as we've read, our definition of baptisma has to be correct to get the correct jist of the text. I've found four instances in the short time I've looked... there may be more: Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Mark 16:16, and 1 Peter 3:21. Let's check them out.

Now looking at these Scriptures, one might think that Baptism is needed to "close the deal." However, John (in the only evangelistic book in Scripture) does not agree it seems. He says over and over, that belief is enough for salvation. I'll give you just a few:

John 1:12-13 - even to those who believe ...
John 3:14-16 - whoever believes will have eternal life...
John 3:18 - he who believes is not judged...
John 3:36 - he who believes in ths Son has eternal life...
John 5:24 - he who believes in Him who sent Me, has eternal life...
John 6:47 - he who believes has eternal life.
John 11:25-27 - he who believes in Me will live even if he dies...
John 20:31 - these things have been written that you may believe...

Also:
1 John 5:10-15 ; Romans 3:25-28 ; Galatians 2:16 ; Ephesians 2:8-9

When I read these Scriptures, I find that belief in Christ alone is enough for salvation. Not baptism, walking down an aisle, praying with a Pastor, or any other thing added to the belief is required by Scripture. Now, does this mean that I don't believe in baptism? NO! If it was good enough for Jesus, it darn sure is good enough for me! I believe that baptism is often the first step in obedience, toward becoming a true disciple. However, it is not a requirement for eternal life.

Whew... I'm tired. Carson, I hope this better illustrates what I said before. I'm not trying to shake anyone up, or create dissention, merely using Scripture to decipher other more difficult Scripture. I'm a simple guy, and I believe Christ knew salvation would need to be a simple thing for me to grasp. Not that I fully understand either! But I'm fully grateful!

"From the fullness of His love, we have all received one blessing after another." John 1:16

In His Grip,
joshua

 

These are questions of "lifestyle" and not salvation!

 

Joshua,

For the Catholic, the object of pistis is twofold. First, the fides qua ["quah"] is personal adherence to God by living a life of filial trust in God as Father; this is the obedience of faith, which Paul speaks of in Romans 1:5 & 16:26. Secondly, the fides quae ["quay"] is our adherence to God's divine revelation - to His Word, which is a means to the fides qua. We believe what God says in order to feed and nourish our life of filial obedience as sons recreated in the only Son through baptism.

With regard to baptisma, I disagree with your interpretation of several passages. First, I see Corinthians 12:13 as referring to the Christian's baptism. This is Paul's baptismal spirituality at work; it is a mindset that keeps the Christian baptism in one's frame of reference when dealing with various aspects of the Christian life. In this instance, Paul is dealing with ecclesiology (study of the church) in light of his baptismal sprituality. It is through our baptism, that we enter the Church (i.e. the kingdom). This is what Christ says in John 3:5 - "no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit".

With this in mind, we read, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit."

Since we (1) receive the Spirit and (2) enter the Church through baptism, Paul is able to make this profound ecclesiological (referring to the Church) and pneumological (referring to the Spirit) statement.

You asked, "Now, is it belief and then baptism that saves? Or just belief?"

Good question. The Catholic answer would be that it is the theological virtues of faith, hope, and love, which are received in baptism that save. Mere human belief apart from baptism doesn't save. I've shown you this by pointing out what John says in John 2:23-25. Only the supernatural belief given to us by the Spirit in baptism will save us, and it is this type of belief, which John refers to when he writes, "everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life" in John 3:16. This is also why you'll find Lutherans like John Gilmore on this board claiming that God creates faith in the person (even in the infant) when the person is baptized. This is derived from a careful and proper reading of John's Gospel.

Your opinion - that "John does not agree it seems" is derived from a hasty reading of John, without taking into account the strong literary structure and Old Testament allusions he uses in demonstrating that it is through baptism that the Christian is born from above (anothen). This was the purpose of my post to you above; I gave a sort of preemptive strike to this objection by addressing John's Gospel first. This is why it is necessary for you to consider what I wrote before you make a response.

Also, it is important to note that, for a Jew, one cannot enter into a covenant without taking or making an oath. This is part and parcel to reading the Old Testament, where we find covenants being made left and right through oath-swearing (See Hebrews 6:13ff for an example). If you were to ask a Jew, "How do I enter into a covenant?", he would - without hesitation - respond, "By swearing an oath, invoking the name of God", and usually, a covenant involved making a covenant sacrifice and partaking of the sacrificial meal.

In the New Covenant, we enter into a covenantal relationship with God the Father through the sacrificial offering of his only begotten son, Jesus Christ, through the baptismal oath, wherein we invoke the Triune name of God (See Matthew 28:16-20), thereby entering into covenant through the blood of our Paschal Lamb, Jesus Christ. Then, we renew and ratify our covenant by partaking in the sacrificial meal of Christ's Body and Blood in the Last Supper, which is the fulfillment of the Jewish Passover Seder/Haggadah meal. This is why Paul says:

"The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?" (1 Cor 10:16).

You wrote, "I believe Christ knew salvation would need to be a simple thing for me to grasp."

And it is. Peter outlines the process of being saved in one sentence. In response to his hearers' question on the day of Pentecost in his first Catechetical Sermon, Peter tells us to "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." That's it. Repent. Turn from your sinfulness. Make a complete 180 degree turn towards God. Be baptized. When you are baptized, your sins will be forgiven and you will receive the indwelling presence of God himself, who will empower you to live your new life of faith, hope, and love, which is a life lived by the person recreated in the waters of baptism, born from above and anew, by the Spirit of God.

 

Willow2,

I think you missed the point. The baptism for the forgivness of sins and the gift of the holy spirit was not instituted until Jesus resurrected. Thats Jesus blood sacrifice for us.

A person did not need to get baptized before Jesus' death. It was pointless. He could forgive them because he was with us on earth!

His Baptism could not be instituted until he defeated death.

So before death faith, repentance, confession, truth in him only. After death all the other vital important stuff with baptism through his blood into the New Covenant. Thank God.

does that make sense?

 

If Baptism is for remission of and/or forgiveness of sins, then every Christian should be Baptised at least every week.

"if we say we have no sin, we make God a liar"

So, since we continue to sin even after being baptised, then we should continually be baptised.

 

Now we're getting somewhere
You don't have to get baptized every time you sin because the is how We enter into Christ and become PART of His body. Grace.

Read Rom 6:1-5 "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By NO means! We died to sin; how can we LIVE in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His Death? We werre therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."

"vs8-10 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has a mastery over him.. The Death he died, he died to sin ONCE FOR ALL; BUT the life he lives, he lives to God."

Let us talk with in these passages and come to an understanding. I don't think jumping around solves anything.

 

We should return to our baptism every day through earnest repentance:

 

Yelsew:
Christians are baptized for unto the remission of sins. Acts 2:38. If a Christian sins, he then must confess and pray for forgiveness. Acts 8:12-24 demonstrate this principle. The blood of Christ offers continuous cleansing power as long as we walk in the light as he is in the light. If we confess,when we sin he is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteosuness. I John 1:7,8.