DRINKING ALCOHOL?

I guess any attempt at moderation and the middle ground is a *very* vain attempt?

Larry,

Thank you for your educational respite. Though it appeared to be somewhat argumentative and angry.

Now, what is your point?

I asked if there was a *real* Wine Maker on-board. Did I not?

And, would you please comment on the meaning of this verse:

This sure seems to say that, in a Biblical sense, settling on one's lees is not a good thing.

And, the imagery clearly comes from the wine-making of *that* day.

So, either God's Word is in error, or 'our' interpretation is in error, or there is a difference in the yeasts and grapes between the two geographical areas.

Probably the latter.

And, I did say that:

Smoky, I liked your contrast between the 'Wine of Blessing' and the 'Wine of Cursing'. Very Interesting.

 

I'm enjoying this post. Because, though I am a Baptist, I have had only one problem with the denomination: they don't use wine (as Jesus did) in communion.

When did this practice start? If we are trying to use the early, pre-Romanized church as an example, why do we change this practice of the early church?

I've heard the argument that some people can't have alcohol or they will go back to being alcoholics. Maybe. But what must be a practice for them does not have to be a practice for the rest of us. And I would say that folks without alcohol problems constitute a clear majority within the Baptist denomination.

Why change a practice outlined in Scripture? (I would love to try to talk the Baptist denomination back into using wine with communion. But I'm sure better people than me have tried and failed.)

Someone quoted,

To me, this Scriptural passage seems to be saying that it is wrong to get someone drunk for the purpose of looking upon their nakedness. That seems to me the only interpretation which gives meaning to every word of the sentence of Scripture. The previously proffered interpretation appears to ignore or render irrelevant the words, "that thou mayes look on their nakedness!" So interpreted, the miracle of changing water into real, alcoholic wine, would not be contrary to Scripture in any respect.

I'm thinking of copying this into the Baptist forum to see what our Baptist seminarians think about this.

Blessings,
CalvinG

 

"Wine on the lees" is a mistranslation made by Anglican tranlslators of the KJV. I guess you've heard the old expression "where you have four Episcopalians you'l always have a fifth". They wanted it to be alcoholic wine.

 

I hope you understand in saying this that you're also saying that it's OK to get others drunk. I'd rather be judged for looking on nakedness than getting others drunk.

 

SMM:

No offense intended, I'm not feeling angry about anything. By the way, I have no personal interest in this topic; there's no wine in my home; and I've always lived a *dry* lifestyle.

Not being a wine expert myself, =), I decided to provide the next-best thing I could think of: Quotes from some actual winemakers.

What's my take on the verse you mention? Just as we can learn from the wine producer's quotes themselves- being "on the lees" for too long is a bad thing. Just as you alluded to in an earlier post, occasionally the impurities have to be "racked" off- being "on the lees" for too long or indefinitely will result in spoilage.
A common, analogous phrase used today might be "to not rest on one's laurels". The "vessel to vessel" reference is to the process in winemaking of racking off the impurities; in our lives it may mean to not become stagnant. Read the verse with the lens of Moab not resting on his laurels (becoming set in his ways). Might this not be what it refers to? If I had a good commentary handy I'd see what it might have to say.

 

Smoky,

Hey, we agree on the fact that no manmade translation of God's Holy Word is without errors. I'm not a KJVO-er either.

 

"Wine on the lees" is a mistranslation made by Anglican tranlslators of the KJV. I guess you've heard the old expression "where you have four Episcopalians you'l always have a fifth". They wanted it to be alcoholic wine. </font>[/QUOTE]Smoky, forgive me for pointing out that you seem to be contradicting your previous statements.
A few posts ago you said that "the lees" wasn't the by-product of fermentation, but instead was the filtering process.
You now have conceded my point that "the lees" indicates alcoholic content, but attribute its inclusion in the verse to the bias of the Anglican translators.

You can't have it both ways.

 

Commentaries, anyone?
Barnes:

Not what I expected! But, that's what study and being a Berean is all about.

Clarke:

Geneva Translators Notes:

Gill:

Wesleys:

JFB:

Quotes courtsey of e-Sword available for FREE download at www.e-sword.net

Wouldn't it be nice if all these guys could agree?

 

No, I apologize for that. I meant to say that "the lees well refined" refers to a filtering process. The word for "well refined" is
zaqaq , zaw-kak'; a primitive root; to strain, (figurative) extract, clarify :- fine, pour down, purge, purify, refine. In other words, the seperation of the vintage produce (shemer)from the juice was a process to prevent fermentation by separating the albumen and seeds, the things that cause fermentation, from the juice. When making grape juice you do it right away so it won't ferment. I appreciate the research you did to show how to make good wine, but this was not a case of making good wine. It was a case of making good grape juice.

 

Thanks SMM for taking the time to provide these commentaries.

 

Larry, I still think the KJV translation of "wine on the lees" is a wrong translation. "On the lees" causes you to think of the process of making wine, but that's not necesarrily what is implied in the original Greek. I wasn't trying to correct the translation, I was just trying to say what I believe "wine on the lees well refined" means in the original. In fairness to the KJV, the verse is also mistranslated in modern versions that say "well aged wine". There is just a bias that exists in Bible translators that really think it refers to alcoholic wine. I just don't believe it does, because, to me, it would place too many controdictions in the bible.

 

I believe you can give strong drink or any other drug to someone perishing, if indicated. It was OK when it was written, but there are better things today! I believe "perishing" refers to someone on their death bed, not a lost condition spiritually. I strongly disagree that you give strong drink to someone who is suffering from being spiritually bereft. The idea is sick. If that's what you mean by it, it's no better than doing it to uncover nekadness.

 

In fact, No Deceit, Scripture reveals that the Apostle Paul tells Timothy, who is a minister, that he should drink wine. Surprise, surprise, that medical science has revealed positive health effects to moderate alcohol consumption!! It's only been in Scripture for nearly two mellinia.

I do not advocate getting anyone else drunk for any purpose. But there is a middle ground. Plenty of people, such as myself, are capable of moderate alcohol consumption. And nowhere in Scripture is this indicated to be a sin.

It makes me wonder about the entire temperance movement and what on earth prompted that in this country. It certainly wasn't Scripture.

Someone once told me that the wine of Jesus' miracle represents joy. I don't think this makes it any less "wine."

I still wonder what social mores lead the Baptist denomination to reject the use of wine in the Lord's Supper. If the Reform is an attempt to get closer to the practices of the early Church, why do we not defer to the Christians during the time of the Apostles with respect to this practice? As I understand it, it wasn't even possible to regularly have unfermented grape juice during those times.

Blessings,
CalvinG

 

Perhaps you would care to reconcile why this should be "troubling" when abstinence from alcohol is commended in the Scriptures.

Leviticus 10:9 - abstinence commanded to the Levitical priests - 9"Drink no wine or strong drink, you or your sons with you, when you go into the tent of meeting, lest you die. It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations.

Numbers 6:3 - abstinence part of the nazarite vow - he shall separate himself from wine and strong drink. He shall drink no vinegar made from wine or strong drink and shall not drink any juice of grapes or eat grapes, fresh or dried.

Deuteronomy 29:6 - abstinence used as part of the purification of the Jews in the wilderness - You have not eaten bread, and you have not drunk wine or strong drink, that you may know that I am the LORD your God.

Jeremiah 35:6 - The Rechabites commended for generations of abstinence - But they answered, "We will drink no wine, for Jonadab the son of Rechab, our father, commanded us, 'You shall not drink wine, neither you nor your sons forever.

Luke 1:15 - John the Baptist an abstainer by command of the angel - for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.

Romans 14:21 - abstinence commended by Paul - It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.

You are correct, moderate drinking is not condemned by the Scriptures, but neither is abstinence. You have taken your position too far to the other side to remain within your own parameters of avoiding "the doctrines of men."

 

Excellent Post Clint!

I made a copy of the references...

Good stuff.

Great Point about not condemning 'Abstinance'.

 

Clint,

I noticed that you had to dig awfully hard to find that Scriptural references to not partaking of alcohol.

Can we agree that Jesus drank wine with alcohol content? And that he did this during the Last Supper? You would do differently?

Regarding your quotes, Lev 10:9 refers to a particular place and time when the Levitical priests were not to drink wine: "when you go into the tent of meeting." This is not a general commandment for the Levites not to drink. And it would appear to be superceded by Jesus' saying to have the Lord's Supper in rememberence of Him.

Numbers 6:3 Hmmm...Baptists are going to have a hard time defending having grape juice rather than wine during Communion. Because it seems to equally forbid grape juice, which is what is used.
"any juice of grapes, fresh or dried."

Purification of the Jews in the wilderness: Seems that God was profiding them with mana and quail during that time. That seems a bit different from today. And wine was probably just one other thing that wasn't availaible (along with a variety of other foods) but which they had occasionally enjoyed in Egypt.

Jeremiah 35:6 I'm not a Rechabite, at least not that I know of. Are you? I think the admonition not to get drunk with wine is adequate. There may be some folks who can't have alcohol at all, but that does not mean that everyone's practice needs to change just because some people, who are generally capable of self identifying, might relapse if they had a drink.

Luke 1:15. This command was given at the command of an angel, as you concede. It applied to one person, not to mankind generally. Come to think of it, didn't John the Baptist eat locusts, too? Any chance of the Baptist denomination's adopting that practice? I hope not!

Matt 3:4: "John's clothes were made of camel's hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist. His food was locusts and wild honey."

Rom 14:21 This passage does not commend vegetarianism any more than it commends abstinence in my opinion. It seems to be focused on avoiding doing things which will "cause your brother to stumble."

Timothy had to be told to have "a little wine" with his meals. Why do you think Paul told him that? One may reason that Timothy didn't drink or at least didn't drink enough wine to suit Paul. Could it be that Paul wanted to avoid making abstinence a tradition?

I will be interested in your responses.

Blessings,
CalvinG