Church of Christ

BPM,

I take it you have a problem with James 2? Although we are not saved by our works, our fruits (or works or whatever you want to call them) are important.

By its fruits a heart is known.

 

Briguy:
The grammatical construction of Mk. 16:16 requires two things to be saved Belief and Baptism. The coordinating conjunction connects the two, not disconnects them. The word But is a word denoting contrast. The construction of the first and second phrases requires they be dissimilar. Therefore,one who believes will be baptized if he desires to be saved. One who does not believe will not be baptized and be lost. The verse teaches that both belief and baptism are essential for being saved. To exclude one excludes salvation. This is the BUT contrast of believing and being baptized. Grammarians would call the repetiton of the first phrase after the but as redundant. This is the case as belief and baptism assume a oneness by the conjunction and.
Furthermore, the following passages teach that baptism is essential for salvation. ( Rev.1:5, Mk. 14:24 IPet. 3:21,Eph. 5:26, Acts 22:16, Acts 8:38), and a host of other passages.

 

Amen brother!!! Excellent post...Panza

 

Because your church's doctrine is wrong, it must make up exceptions to the rule. The following is used to "prove" that water baptism is necessary for salvation:

3:5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth,11 unless a person is born of water and spirit,12 he cannot enter the kingdom of God. - John 3:5 NET

and yet your church so conveniently drops the "water" part and makes up doctrines like "baptism by desire" and "baptism by blood".

2:8 For by grace you are saved19 through faith,20 and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 2:9 it is not of works, so that no one can boast.21 - Ephesians 2:8-9 NET

 

1:5 and from Jesus Christ—the faithful17 witness,18 the firstborn from among the dead, the ruler over the kings of the earth. To the one who loves us and has set us free19 from our sins at the cost of20 his own blood - Revelation 1:5 NET

No baptism being mentioned here, instead we see that Christ has set us free from our sins at the cost of his own blood (ie. he paid the penalty of our sins).

14:24 He said to them, “This is my blood, the blood38 of the covenant,39 that is poured out for many. - Mark 14:24 NET

Once again no baptism here, only the blood of Christ.

3:21 And this prefigured baptism, which now saves you37—not the washing off of physical dirt38 but the pledge39 of a good conscience to God—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, - 1 Peter 3:21 NET

According to this verse, it is not the physical aspect that saves but the pledge of a good conscience to God (ie. repentance from sin and acceptance of forgiveness from God). Baptism is symbolic of being buried with Christ.

5:26 to sanctify her by cleansing her34 with the washing of the water by the word, - Ephesians 5:26 NET

Verse 25 shows that "her" in this verse refers to the Church. Since it is individuals who are baptized not the Church, water is probably not refering to physical baptism.

22:16 And now what are you waiting for?58 Get up,59 be baptized, and have your sins washed away,60 calling on his name.’61 - Acts 22:16 NET

Again, baptism is symbolic of being buried with Christ. Notice the "calling on his name" (ie. confessing Christ as savior).

8:38 So he ordered the chariot to stop, and both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water,93 and Philip baptized94 him. - Acts 8:38 NET

This verse mentions baptism but not salvation.

2:8 For by grace you are saved19 through faith,20 and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 2:9 it is not of works, so that no one can boast.21 2:10 For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them.22 - Ephesians 2:8-10 NET

This declares the reality well. We are saved by grace through faith, not of works (which baptism is). We were created in Christ Jesus for good works and so we should do them (which includes being baptized) but our salvation is not dependant on works.

 

Hey Frank, I know you are sincere in what you believe. We simply will have to disagree on this one. There are many many scriptures that talk about being saved, chosen, etc... and no baptism is mentioned. There are different ways of looking at many Scriptures. John 3:6 (I think) saying water and spirit I read as birth water, not baptismal water. The next verse seems to spell that out but many people explain that away. The point is that logically, If Christ poured out his blood, it is the blood that saves. Why would he require water?

Also, Frank you have disputed some verses nicely but you have not addressed the concepts I have argued. You didn't touch Paul and baptism from 1 Cor. 1 either. I hope you are open to continue your study of this issue and use some old fashioned logic in the process.

In Christ,
Brian

Nils, I was never believer baptized (was Lutheran infant Baptized) because of my understanding of baptism. Can I be in "non action" when I believe with all my heart that I do not need to be dunked afetr being a Christian for more then ten years?
I really would like your comment on that. Thanks!

 

Dual:
You have inserted your own remarks into the text and forced the meaning as you see fit. One must be washed in the blood of Christ to be saved. ( Rev.1:5) How is this possible? Follow the word phrases, a common way to link ideas together when studying scripture.( Rev.1:5, Acts 22:16, Eph. 5:26). One must be washed in the blood to be cleansed, The How is found in Water baptism. ( Acts 22:16 Acts 8:38, I Pet. 3:21) and a host of other passages.
By the way, from your post about I Peter 3:21 you obviously do not understand the term LIKE FIGURE. What destroyed sinful man in the days of Noah? WATER. What saved those from death.? Water. What provided safe passage into a New life? Water. A like figure is something similar to a previous thing or event. The context Of I Peter 3 is a reference to the days of Noah and then to our salvation. Noah's salvation being a figure of what ours is like now.
Moreover, her is a pronoun referring to people. The church are people who are saved.(Acts 2:47). The church is also referred to as a bride. Last time I checked a bride was a female person. All members of the saved are washed. That is what the text says and it is in water by the teaching of the word this is done. This word is delivered by the spirit(Ep. 6:17, Hebs. 4:12, Jn. 3:5).
The grammatical construction of Acts 22:16 requires one be baptized to be washed ( Obedience) this is the calling on his name. If you will read in Acts 2 and Romans 10, the two other times this phrase is used in theNew Testament you will find the context of Obedience is required in the calling. This harmonious with the context of each chapter.
Baptism is an act of obedient faith. It is not a meritorious work. There are 4 types of works in taught in the New Testament.1. Works of merit. ( eph. 2:8,9). 2. Works of Righteousness. Titus 3:5.
3. Works of the Law. ( Gal. 2:9-11).4. Works of obedient faith.( Romasn 16:26). Baptism is an act of an obedinet faith. It is essential to be saved as men are required to have an active faith.( Hebrews 11:6). However, it is not a work that merits salvation. one cannnot boast of doing what is simple required of him. Any faith that is not active is a dead faith.( James 2:26). God requires us to have an obedient faith to his commands to be saved.( Acts 10:48).
Rationality requires one to make ONLY those conclusions as are warranted by the totality of the evidence.
It is not possible to be clean before one is washed. God chose the washing of water by the word to do the cleansing as it puts us in contact with the blood of Christ.(Eph. 5:26). Jesus said, Ye are CLEAN through the WORD I have spoken." (Jn. 15:3). John baptized in water. WHY? Jesus commanded us to be baptized tobe saved. WHY? BECAUSE OF THE WORD. THIS IS WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT TOLD THEM TO SAY ON PENTECOST. ( Acts 2:1-4,38-40). They spoke the Word which is the seed of the kingdom. ( Luke 8:11). The word of truth requires baptism for unto the remission of sins.( James 1:18,21,ICor 4:15, Acts 2:38).
Frank

 

Briguy:
I have presented what the Bible has said. Jn. 3 requires a birth in water. The spirit provided this message for those entering the kingdom.( Acts 2:1-4 38-47,Mat. 16:18,19, John. 14:26, 15:24;16:13,Lk. 24:49).
You should study John's baptism, also. It was to prepare people for the Lord. ( Mk. 1:4,Lk. 1:70).John's baptism was for the remission of sins.( Mk. 1:4). Jesus was baptized to validate the righteousness of God.( Mat. 3:16-18).
Are you contending that those of John's day are prepared differently than those in the kingdom today? If baptism is not essential, then there is no differnece in those prepared and those unprepared.In view of the teaching of the Bible, this makes no sense.
Water baptism was the mode of baptism in the first century. The concept of Holy Spirit operation was not taught until Calvin's day. in fact, the first real documented departure from immersion was by the sprinkling of a man named Novatian in the second century.
Moreoever, Romans 6:3-5 teach that one is buried in something and raised from that something. If water is in view it makes sense. If it is Holy Spirit baptism, then one is buried in the spirit and then is raised from him. In that case, Christians would not have the spirit and be NONE OF HIS.( Romans 8:9, Gal. 4:26).
In Acts 8:12-18 there are people baptized who had nor received the Holy Spirit. If the baptism of the first part was Holy Spirit instead of Water, the rest of the commentary about having not yet received the Spirit and having laid hands on them makes no sense.
The Bible by inspiration of God Commands one to be baptized for unto the remission of sins by the washing of the water by the word. ( Acts 2:38, Eph. 5:26).That is what the good book says.
Did Peter teach water baptism in in I Pet. 3:21 and then contradcit the teaching of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38?
The doctrine of salvation without baptism is one without faith.( Gal. 3:26-29). This doctrine is simply as Jeremiah 2:13 teaches one that is a cistern a broken cistern that holds no water. No pun intended!
Frank

 

Frank, Is there any exceptions to the "Baptism for salvation" view you hold. There have been several examples already presented that you have not addressed. What if no water is present when someone comes to faith, and then they die before water is available. what then?

Also, You seem kind of one foscused and though you present scriptures and arguments for your point you never refute directly the arguments on the other side. It may be easier on both of us if we do one point at a time starting now. Thanks so much!!

In a Great God,
Brian

 

Briguy:
I used some old fashion logic and scripture in my last post and will continue to do so in this one as the eternal LOGOS( Logic) would have it that way.
I Cor. 1 Is an admonition about divding the body over men. It has absolutely nothing to do with the essentiality of baptism. Just becaue men choose to do that which is wrong does not change that which is right. That would be illogical!( Mat. 24:35, I Pet. 1:23-25). In fact, if you will read the text you will find that this was to address a problem. Paul solves the arguement the way I have.I Cor.1 he refers to the scriptures and the implication that Christ died for them and that they were baptized in the name of Christ,( Mat. 28:19), not any of the others mentioned. It is Jesus who died and we are buried with him in baptism.( Romans 6:3-5). Men of faith are buried in water for unto the remission of sins. (Mat. 28:18-20, Acts 2:38, IPet. 3:21, Acts 8:38, Eph. 5:26, Acts 22:16, Mk. 16:16). Scriptural and logical.
Christ commnaded baptism. ( see Mat. 28:19). It was one performed by HUMAN ADMINISTRATORS.It was commanded unitl the end of the world. ( vs. 20).

Furthermore, In I Cor.4:6, Paul said to NOT GO PASSED THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN. I have obeyed. Have you?
Frank

 

Briguy:
Let me ask you this? If a man is in ambulance and has obeyed all the commands about salvation except is not baptized is he saved, according tothe Bible?
2.If he dies in the ambulance before he confesses, Is he saved, according to the Bible?
3. What if has not repented. Is he saved according to the Bible?
4. What if he has no faith and dies. Is he saved according to the Bible?
5. What if he dies before he hears the gospel message. Is he saved according to the New Testament of Jesus Christ?
I have already affirmed what a man has to do to get into Christ. May he be outside of Christ and be saved, according to the Bible?( IITim. 2:10).
Frank

 

Briguy;
The scriptures I have presented have proven to the rational person that baptism is for unto the remission of sins.
Moreover, I have used the totality of evidence to refute the objections. One of the first rules of interperatation is to examine ALL the evidence BEFORE you make your conclusions. I have done this.
I have dealt with Jn. 3:3-5,I Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-5,I Cor.1,your Illogical arguement.
I Have examined the purpose of baptism even back to John. If you wish, we could delve deeper into the Old Testament principles of this matter.
The problem with most people in the religious world today is they are not rational about the evidence. They make conclusions based on insufficinet evidence. That is kind of like building a bike that has 15 instructions and the person putting it together using only 4 of them. I would not want to ride that bike, especailly if the safety feature( the brakes) were one of the instructions left out. I do not want to appear before God at judgement without dong all that he has commanded for the reason he has commanded it.
Frank

 

Hi guys,

Perspicuity of the Scriptures? Is there an authority to resolve the matter, based upon Scripture such as the Council at Jerusalem (Acts 15)? Is Jesus the Good Shepherd?

"You may learn, if you will, the crowning wisdom of the all-holy Shepherd and Instructor, of the omnipotent and paternal Word, when He figuratively represents Himself as the Shepherd of the sheep. And He is the Tutor of the children. He says therefore by Ezekiel, directing His discourse to the elders, and setting before them a salutary description of His wise solicitude: 'And that which is lame I will bind up, and that which is sick I will heal, and that which has wandered I will turn back; and I will feed them on my holy mountain.' Such are the promises of the good Shepherd. Feed us, the children, as sheep. Yea, Master, fill us with righteousness, Thine own pasture; yea, O Instructor, feed us on Thy holy mountain the Church, which towers aloft, which is above the clouds, which touches heaven." (Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor 1:9, 202 A.D.)

"As to those other things which we hold on the authority, not of Scripture, but of tradition, and which are observed throughout the whole world, it may be understood that they are held as approved and instituted either by the apostles themselves, or by plenary Councils, whose authority in the Church is most useful, e.g. the annual commemoration, by special solemnities, of the Lord's passion, resurrection, and ascension, and of the descent of the Holy Spirit from heaven, and whatever else is in like manner observed by the whole Church wherever it has been established." (Augustine, To Januarius, Epistle 54, 400 A.D.)

God bless,

Carson

 

Frank, so if I understand you right, the man who puts his faith in Christ and dies on his way to being baptized will spend eternity in Hell, right?
Please answer this with one word (yes or no) so I have a clear understanding where you are at.

Also, I know why Paul said what he said in 1 Cor. 1. The point I was making is that in your world of "Baptism for salvation" Paul was glad some were not Baptized and so not saved. (and you said I was illogical )

In Love and the Truth of the Word,
Brian

 

BPM:
Your conclusion about the thief on the cross and the essentialty of Baptism are erroneous.
1. If the thief on the cross were a Jew. he would have been baptized for the remission of sins by John's baptism.( Mk.1:4).
2. The Bible does not tell us if he was a Jew or not. Why do you assume he was not baptized?
3. The Thief lived under the authority of the Old Law. One Christ fulfilled perfectly.( Mat.5:17). Under the Old Law God could remitt sins as he pleased.( Mk. 2:7-11).
4. The salvation of the thief on the cross has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING ON OUR SALVATION AS WE LIVE UNDER THE LAW TO CHRIST(I Cor. 9:21, Hebs. 9:15-17).
5. Men today must obey Christ.( Jn. 3:36). We will be judged by his words of authority.( Mat. 28:18-20, Jn. 12: 48).
6. One cannot be justified by the Old Law today.(Gal. 3:22-24,Gal. 5:4).
7. Jesus commanded baptism for unto the remission of sins.( Mk. 16;16,Jn. 3:3-5, Mat. 28:19, Acts 2:38).
Frank

 

Briguy:
Paul stated he was sent not to baptize. He did baptize some. He did not say SOME WERE NOT BAPTIZED. He said he was glad he baptized none of you.
Paul is expressing his desire for unity and not division and that he was glad he was not contributing to the problem by having baptized a number of people. Let's be honest with the text.
Frank

 

19:4 Paul said, “John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him,11 that is, in Jesus.” 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, 19:6 and when Paul placed12 his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came13 on them, and they began to speak14 in tongues and to prophesy.15 - Acts 19:4-6 NET

These people were rebaptised with a baptism different from John's baptism. That is not my main point however. The thief on the cross repented on the cross and since John baptized preaching repentance of sins, it is pretty clear that the thief had not been baptized by John.

2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each one of you be baptized77 in the name of Jesus Christ78 for79 the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.80 - Acts 2:38 NET

The Greek word which is translated as "for" is "eis". There are many different meaning for this word including "for the purpose of" and "because of".

If you go to prison for stealing, you generally are not going to prison "for the purpose of" stealing, rather you are sent there "because of" the stealing which you did.

If we were to interpret the following the way that baptismal regenerationists interpret Acts 2:38, we get an interesting heresy:

15:3 For I passed on to you as of first importance3 what I also received—that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, - 1 Corinthians 15:3 NET

Shall we say that Christ died for the purpose of our sins as if through his death he commited our sins? No! Christ died because of our need to have our sins forgiven.

 

Briguy:
I am under the authorityof Jesus Christ. I have answered as directed by his all- suficient word.( IITim. 3:16,17). My personal opinion about the question and a dollar will get you a ride on the bus, but not get you a ticket to heaven. Again, the Bible says a man must be IN Christ to be saved.( IITim. 2:10). He cannot be saved outside of Christ. According to the Bible, can he be saved outside Christ?
Briguy,answer with the same standard I have used to answer the New Testament.
If you believe he may be saved outside Christ, please present the totality of the evidence where one may rationally conclude you are correct in asssuming your position.I have operated this way from the outset of the dicussion. It would be fair for you to do the same.
Frank

 

http://www.bible.org/docs/theology/eccles/baptism/wtrbptsm.htm

 

Dual:
Eis is translated over 1700 times in the NEW Testament.It is NEVER TRANLATED BECAUSE OF. In every sinlgle case it istranslated for or unto or to obtain the remission of sins. Baptist scholars Summers and Willaims concur. Wallace of the theological seminary in Texas affirms this, too. Write them, they are experts in Greek.
In Acts 19 those of John's baptism were immersed AFTER the New Testamment dispensation.( see Acts 2). John's baptism had been superceded by the baptism of the New Testament. Thus,they had not been baptized for unto the remission of sins in accordance with the Law of Christ.
( I Cor. 9:21, Mat. 28:18-20). A Law is IN FORCE AFTER the TESTATOR DIES.(Hebs. 9:15-19). Christ had died and rose form the dead making his law IN FORCE in Acts 19. In fact, this event, happened more than 10 years after the death burial and resurrection of Christ.
Frank