The next temple.

Me4Him you did not answer my question

What happens to Israel in Deut 28-30 if they don't obey the Mosaic Covenant? Does the Mosaic Covenant still stand?

 

This is one of those "interpretations" the calvinist have a problem with, it is, but it aint.

God's promise to Abraham was both "physical and Spiritual", physical to the nation of Israel, Spiritual to all who had "faith".

This is why israel, being enemies of the gospel, wasn't "cast away", and are still "elect", but only through faith in Jesus, the reason they suffer the chastisement of the trib and the church doesn't.

As the "PASSOVER LAMB" Jesus only protects the "Firstborn" from death, the Church.

Jesus as the "SCAPEGOAT" (day of atonement) the sins of Israel are placed on him, "BUT" a "GOAT" sacrifice was still required for "personal sins".

Le 16:7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.

9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.

15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:

10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

Le 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

The "Goat" represents SIN or the "body of sin" as in Sheep/Goats.

The church sacrifices their "goat" when the old man is crucified.

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin (Goat) might be destroyed,

Israel will have to "literally sacrifice" their bodies (goat) to be saved during the trib, this is the "stripes in their flesh" from the "Chastisement" of God's "ROD", the AC.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Re 13:15 and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Heb 9:22 and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Jesus suffer the stripes/Chastisement/shedding of blood in his flesh for the church, but God will require Israel to suffer these in "their flesh" for rejecting Jesus, but still require "FAITH" in Jesus before he'll save.

Re 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

The "Feast of Passover" and "Day of atonement" both required a "blood sacrifice", how these two work together to explain to scriptures is an area in which most people are ignorant.

Just mention God requiring Israel to literally "shed their blood" before he will remit their sins and listen to the "Church crowd" that only Jesus's shed blood will save,

they don't understand how the "literal OT Mosaic Covenant" combines with the "Spiritual NT Covenant" to form "ONE".

 

If I could borrow a phrase from Grasshopper

 

</font>[/QUOTE]There are "milk drinkers" and there are "Meat eaters", and it's not wise to give meat to a milk drinkers, they choke on it.

 

Especially if the meat is spoiled.

 

Why do assume I am a calvinist?

Gal 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise t 24This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27For it is written, “Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For more numerous are the children of the desolate
Than of the one who has a husband.” 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30But what does the Scripture say?“ Cast out the bondwoman and her son, For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.” 31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

Who is the bondwoman and who is the freewoman?

Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, 8but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened

The elect/remnant received the blessings they were chosen and the rest were hardened, Verses 2-5 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3“Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” 4But what is the divine response to him? “ I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.

Did I miss something in 70 AD with the Romans and the whole jewish war thing?

Hebrews 9:11 "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption."[/QUOTE]

The second goat of Lev 16, was the "scape-goat". When someone says, "I am just a scape-goat", we understand that this person is being unfairly blamed for some wrong another has committed. Jesus of course fits the imagery. The Jewish priest placed his hands on this second goat which symbolized a transfer of all the sins of the people to the goat. Then the goat was taken out to the deep wilderness and released. In the same way Jesus suffered unfairly on the cross for sins He did not commit. He was innocent and sinless yet suffered as if He had sinned. Jesus is our scape-goat! Just as the scape-goat was driven into the wilderness. Jesus was crucified outside the gate of the city of Jerusalem.

So you want to send the jews back to Israel so 2/3 s of them can die and the rest become Christians?

A better translation would be; And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death They did not put their own lives before loyalty to Christ. There is a direct reference to the words of Jesus in John 12:25, Mark 8:35, Matt 10:39, and 16:25 illustrate this point also. Jesus himself had been “obedient unto death” Phi 2:8

Jesus' blood covers both

The literal Mosaic covenant was a shadow/type, it's anti-type is the New Covenant.

Heb 9:8 The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing The Temple and the OC of the good things to come

Heb 10:1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come (The Full Consumation of the New Covenant/Kingdom at Christ's Parousia)

Heb 9"26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

So if you are saying the NC and the OC make one, and Deut 28-30 no longer applys, then does Israel have a right to dwell in the land?

[ April 15, 2006, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: Jo$h ]

 

Jo$h

The OT was "literal" or "Physical", the NT is "Spiritual", which Israel won't accept without the physical signs and wonders produced under the OT.

With the rapture of the "Holy Ghost" (Voice of Jesus) and church, Israel will go back under the "law and prophets" (Two witnesses, Moses/Elijah) for the tribulation.

And being back under the "Literal/Physical" "L/P" system of leadership, the signs and wonders will return, but instead of suffering a "Spiritual death", as the church does, Israel will suffer a "Literal/Physical" death to be saved.

Israel demanded physical proof from God before they would believe, so God will demand physical proof from them before he'll save.

 

Isn't this what the book of Acts is all about?
When the NT writers quote from the OT, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit I might add, they are telling their readers the original context is to be spiritual not literal. The Jews could not perceive the mysteries of the kingdom of God (John 3:3; Mark 4:11-12). They could not submit to Christ or please God in any way (Rom. 8:6-8). They
could not even understand the gospel (1 Cor. 2:14. They expected a literal kingdom, and Jesus tells them otherwise over and over.

What did Jesus come to this earth to do?

Matt 5:17,18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily, I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled.

Rom 14:8 For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers

Who was the promise of a New Covenant in Jer 31 made too? What was Jesus establishing at the Lord's supper? Where were all the Jews from in Acts 2:5f?

Heb 2:4 God himself showed that his message was true by working all kinds of powerful miracles and wonders. He also gave his Holy Spirit to anyone he chose to.

Matt 11:4 the blind receive sight and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. Jesus is quoting from Isaiah and telling John's followers about SIGNS AND WONDERS, recent archeological evidence from the 2nd Temple period shows that the Jews believed when the Messiah comes He will produce miracles. This is exactly what John and his followers understood.

 

Joh 4:40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days. (5th, 6th days/Gentiles, i.e. church)

Joh 4:43 Now after two days he departed thence, and went into Galilee.

(Back to dealing with the Jews, the trib period)

Joh 4:46 So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, And there was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum.

Joh 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign,

Mt 27:42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses,

Re 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. (OT, Signs and wonders)

Just below the surface of what you read in scripture, there's another story told.

 

Act 2:16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 17 ‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says,‘That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams;
18Even on My bondslaves, both men and women,I will in those days pour forth of My spirit And they shall prophesy.19‘And I will grant wonders in the sky above And signs on the earth below, Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.20‘The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood, Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come. 21 ‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ 22“ Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

Matt. 12:39 - "But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craved for a sign; and yet no sign shall be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet."

Clearly, Jesus was speaking to the Jewish leaders, an evil and adulterous generation that was seeking for a sign. Let us look at the illustration of Jonah which Jesus said applied to Him:

There was a great storm in which Jonah was caught and he was sleeping. The men on the boat were afraid. Then the sea was calmed supernaturally (Jonah 1:4-16). There was a great storm in which Jesus was caught and He was sleeping. The disciples on the boat were afraid. Then the sea was calmed supernaturally (Mark 4:37-39).

Jonah was in the great fish for 3 days and 3 nights (Jonah 1:17). Jesus was in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights (Matt. 12:40).

God had supernaturally raised Jonah out of the great fish's belly of Sheol (2:2, 10). God had supernaturally raised Jesus out of the tomb (Acts 2:31).

Jonah was a sign to Ninevah. Jesus was a sign to Jerusalem.

Jonah preached to the Ninevites that God was going to destroy them in 40 days (Jonah 3:4). Jesus (and His apostles) preached to the Jews in Jerusalem that God was going to destroy them in that generation (40 years - Matt. 23:31-38).

40 days of preaching caused Ninevah to repent. 40 years of preaching did not get Jerusalem to repent

 

Jonah(s) was also a prophets from Galilee, as was Jesus, but the Jew can't find a prophet from Galilee in the scriptures.

Joh 7:52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.

Ninevah was also Gentiles, and you know the problem the disciple had when they started preaching to the Gentiles.

The "sign of Jonah" was to be the only "proof of Jesus ministry".

Jesus start preaching at 30 years of age, add 40 years= 70 AD, the year Rome destroyed the temple, scattered the Jews.

Mt 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch (Jesus) is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Ps 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; (70 years)


Jesus's birth-Temple destruction=70 Years, a Generation.

 

Mark 3:22 (NASB) And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, "He is possessed by Beelzebul," and "He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons."

The Jewish leaders have been watching Jesus for some time now. They had heard of this man who taught with authority and not like the scribes (Mark 1:22). They had heard of His ministry of healing and casting out demons. They had been present when the paralytic was healed (Mark 2:6). They cannot deny that miraculous power has been at work. And so they have one of two options:

1. They can accept Him as Messiah, believing His message and repenting of their sins and trusting in Him alone for salvation.

2. Or they can reject Him, looking for an alternate explanation

They witnessed His miracles and said, No He is not the Messiah he is doing this by Beelzebul

I believe we have already been over this,
it is not HIS branch, the fig tree has nothing to do with Jesus or Israel

Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when ITS branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near

The signs that Jesus gives in the OD are proof of the approaching destruction of Jerusalem just like the budding of trees are proof of the summer.

Where do you get that a generation is 70years?

Num 32:13“So the LORD’S anger burned against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years , until the entire generation of those who had done evil in the sight of the LORD was destroyed.

LINK TO PAGE OF MATERIAL

(Edited to remove the bulk of the message, which was taken from an unattributed source, and to provide a link to a document containing the information.)

[ April 16, 2006, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]

 

Wrong page

 

Wrong for "WHAT", post it man, post it!!!

 

Jo$h

You can read about the fig trees here, scroll down until you come to the "parables of the Fig trees", I'm lazy and don't want to retype all of it.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3398.html

 

You need to work on your Analogia fide, Matt 24:32 is not parallel with Jer & Zech.

Matt 24:33 So, you too, when you see all these things(THE SIGNS), recognize that He is near, right at the door

Mark 13:29 “Even so, you too, when you see these things happening (THE SIGNS), recognize that He is near , right at the door.

Luke 21:31 “So you also, when you see these things happening(THE SIGNS), recognize that the kingdom of God is near

Matt 24:32 Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when ITS branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near

The signs that Jesus gives in the OD are proof of the approaching destruction of Jerusalem just like the budding of trees are proof of the summer.

[ April 16, 2006, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: Jo$h ]

 

You will find the following in interpreting parables in any hermeneutics book.

The Interpretation Of Parables
A Parable is a narrative that is constructed for the sake of conveying important truth. It is inherently figurative language that draws an illustration from life to teach spiritual truth.
When studying parables we should seek to deter-mine the central truth of the parable. Part of doing this is to look for contextual clues to help in the interpretation, namely, look to see if the Lord states the central principle that He wanted to communicate and then uses a parable to illustrate the principle. We should also look carefully to determine how much of the parable Christ inter-preted Himself, separating the essential from what is only attendant to the theme.

When interpreting a parable you do not take words out of the parable and say this means this and that means that, you determine the one central truth in the parable in other words you do not try to make the parable walk on all fours.

 

Let me tell you how to interpret a parable,

you show how it fits into scripture from Genesis/Revelations, and then it doesn't have just "two witnesses" to establish the matter, but the whole bible, confirmed in more ways than you have/can imagine.

His branch was the destruction of Israel
Her Branch is the restoration of Israel.

Day of Christ is not the day of the lord,
the rapture is not a resurrection
His branch is not her branch,

different words have different meaning because they are different and used to describe different events.

And if you're going to study prophecy, you'll have to learn the differences between them.

 

What you are doing is Eisegesis

Eisegesis is the approach to Bible interpretation where the interpreter tries to "force" the Bible to mean something that fits their existing belief or understanding of a particular issue or doctrine. People who interpret the Bible this way are usually not willing to let the Bible speak for itself and let the chips fall where they may. They set off with the up-front goal of trying to prove a point they already believe in, and everything they read and interpret is filtered through that paradigm. Stated another way, they engage in what the Bible refers to as "private interpretation".

 

His branch and her branch are the SAME greek word, NOWHERE in the context of those 2 passages does it refer the destruction and restoration of Israel that is EISGESIS you are doing.

Just because different words are used in parallel passages doesn't make one a whole new cannon.

Isn't Jesus Christ Lord? 1 Cor 1:8 says the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ. Is this a whole new Day of judgment since it has both Lord and Jesus Christ?

All of these words are different so that will give us 10 different days of judgment right? Day of Jesus Christ, his day, day of God, great day, day of wrath, the day, that day, day of redemption, and day of visitation.

Before you lecture me on understanding bible prophecy you need study hermeneutics and jewish apocalyptic literature first.