Greater Good Theodicy

Rom.3:10-12
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Jer.13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Isa. 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

(Prov 21:4 KJV) An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.

There is nothing that an unsaved person can do that God considers good. Even the plowing of the farmers’ fields which are used to produce the grain to feed the people of the world, is considered wicked in God’s sight. There is nothing in God’s sight that an unrighteous man can do that is good. The things that man considers good are not good in God’s sight. All the good in man’s eyes can never merit him eternal life. God will never look upon his acts as good until he does that which is right and repents and trusts Jesus Christ as Saviour; for it was Christ that died for him. Thus God will not consider anything done before that time as good. The only “good” that God considers is that which is done after salvation.

Having said that, the evil in this world is a result of man’s sin. Man brings upon himself his own horrible circumstances and conditions because of his own sin. Sin breeds evil.

James 1:13-16
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Lust or desire brings forth sin; and sin brings forth death. God cannot be tempted with evil. He cannot be blamed for the evil in this world. He allows evil to happen, just as He allowed Satan to tempt Job, but He is not directly bring evil upon people. People bring evil upon themselves. And sometimes God allows evil to happen, without being the direct cause of it. Our God is a God of love.
DHK

 

Hi Neal,

First off, how do you know it exists?

What is "it"? I'm assuming you mean "the good". I know it exists because everything is a part of God's providence, which is ultimately, good.

Second, who defines what is good and who assigns value to say that it outweighed the evil?

Evil is simply the privation of the good. All of creation is "good" by the fact that God has created it. God alone determines the "value" because he alone is "good". Many times, we undervalue what God values more because of our finite, warped perspectives. So, ultimately, the answer to "who" is "God".

And third, let's suppose that no one came to the Lord, the father committed , and the mother becomes an alcoholic eventually checked into a psychiatric ward. Do you still want to keep going down that road?

But, you see, the suicidal act and the alcoholism still involve the further use of two free wills. God's providence never negates our individual wills.

Yes, our will is under God's providence. But that does not mean that He forces our decisions or even has to use them.

Of course he doesn't force our decisions, and of course, he doesn't have to use them, but I believe he does because God is love.

 

Hi Neal,

Is Satan good?

Satan wills not to choose the good, which is why his actions are evil, but he, in himself, is good because he is created. Everything that God created (including the "heavens") is good.

If Satan - as created spirit - is intrinsically evil then God made evil by creating him; if then, you say that he became intrinsically evil by his own free choice (however this would be possible, I do not see), then God is performing evil by keeping him in existence, for all of creation's existence is contingent upon God's upholding the very existence of creation.

So this whole discussion is rather silly because we can't really know if some act was good or not, right?

Well, we can know, yes, to a certain degree, but our knowledge of such will always be subjective.

I understand this. But where is the greater good?

Ultimately, God knows. You would have to ask him.

Don't take this the wrong way, but are you willing to admit that you subscribe to this theodicy, not based on evidence, but on your feelings?

I subscribe to such because of reason; it is reasonable that God's providence (which entails all of creation) takes all evil and turns it into the good - in some fashion - especially in light of the Passion of Christ, which is, foremost, the demonstration of this ineffable Providence.

[ June 20, 2003, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

The problem with the Catholic Church is that even though the past Catholic leadership showed of many signs of corruption and obviously to be considered as false prophets for Jesus himself told us that "by their fruits we shall know them wether they are my disciples or not, A corrupt tree would not bring forth good fruit.", Yet still the Catholic church today still hold on to their corrupt teachings. Why not the catholic Church today admit that their past Church was fallen and need to go back to the plain teaching of the Bible instead of defending the past leadership of their man made doctrine and their traditions. Instead of justifying your past leadership of their corruption, why not go back to the pattern of the early church.

Israel also once backsliden as a nation during the time of their corrupt kings and God still honor them once they go back. But when they go back they never retain the corrupt practices of their kings but rather go back to the ways of David where He was true to the commandments of God.

 

Besides our present Pope, and many other saintly Popes, and clergy, we have Mother Teresa, St. Francis, St. Patrick, St. Maximillian Kolbe, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Joan of Arc, St. Catherine, St. Teresa, etc. etc. Thousands and thousands that can be named, with testimonies of their faith. In fact the history section on Baptist Board is always trying to take the fruit of the Catholic Church and somehow claim they must really have been Baptist.

The fruit of the Catholic Church is hospitals and orphanages that were started by the Catholic Church when nothing like these institutions ever existed before. The fruit of the Catholic Church is the anti-abortion, pro-life movement. The fruit of the Catholic Church are the men and women who witness their faith in Jesus Christ every day working with the poor and homeless. I am even the fruit of the Catholic Church because I confess my faith in Jesus Christ as my Savior and Redeemer on Baptist Board, along with the other Catholics here.

Here are some of our good fruit:

 Catholic Martyrs of the Holocaust
 Blessed Teresa Bracco (1924-1944) -- Italian Citizen (Santa Giulia).
 Blessed Titus Brandsma (1881-1942) -- Carmelite priest (Dachau).
 Blessed Marcel Callo (1921-1945) -- Jocist layman (Mathausen).
 Blessed Jozef Cebula(1902-1941) -- Oblate priest (Mathausen)
 Blessed Stefan Wicenty Frelichowski (1913-1945) -- Polish pastor (Dachau)
 Blessed Jakob Gapp (1897-1943) -- Marianist priest (Ploetzensee).
 Blessed Nikolaus Gross (1898-1945) -- Lay editor (Ploetzensee).
 Blessed Jozef Jankowski (1910-1941) -- Pallotine priest (Auschwitz)
 Blessed Hilary Januszewski (1907-1945) -- Carmelite priest (Dachau)
 Blessed Helene Kafka (1894-1943) -- Franciscan nun (Vienna).
 Saint Maximilian Kolbe (1894-1941) -- Franciscan priest (Auschwitz).
 Blessed Michal Kozal (1893-1943) -- Polish bishop (Dachau).
 Blessed Karl Leisner (1915-1945) -- German priest (Dachau).
 Blessed Bernhard Lichtenberg (1875-1943) -- German monsignor (Dachau).
 Blessed Alphonsus Mary Mazurek (1891-1944) -- Polish Carmelite (Nawojowa Gora)
 Blessed Otto Neururer (1882-1940) -- Austrian priest (Buchenwald).
 Blessed Anastazy Jakub Pankiewicz (1882-1942) -- Franciscan priest (Dachau)
 Blessed Julia Rodzinska (1899-1944) -- Dominican nun (Stutthof)
 Blessed Jozef Stanek (1916-1944) -- Pallotine priest (Warsaw)
 Blessed Boleslaw Strzelecki (1896-1941) -- priest of Radom (Auschwitz)
 Saint Edith Stein (1891-1942) -- Carmelite nun (Auschwitz). On the same day of her death, August 9, 1942, there also perished at Auschwitz Rosa Stein (1883-1942), her sister, and six members of the Loeb Family all Trappists (three nuns, two priests, and one brother).
 108 Polish Martyrs of World War II (1939-1945): Among them were Anton Julian Nowowiejski (1858-1941), an aged archbishop who died in the German death camp at Dzialdowo, where he refused to step on a crucifix; Henryk Kaczorowski (1888-1942), seminary rector at Wloclawek; Ewa Noiszewka (1885-1942) and Marta Wolowska (1879-1942), two Sisters of the Immaculate Conception who were executed at Gora Pietrelewicka in Slonim for hiding Jewish childlren; and Maria Anna Biernacka (1888-1943), one of nine lay persons (she was a benefactress of the Redemptorists in Warsaw) who chose to be executed (she was shot on 13 July 1943 near Grodno) to save her unborn grand child. These were beatified along with George Kaszyra (1904-1943) and Anthony Leszczewicz (1890-1943), Marian priests, (they perished among some 1,500 victims burned alive by the Nazis in Roscia, Belarus, on 17-18 February 1943), whose causes had been opened, on 26 January 1992 in Poland. On June 13, 1999,Pope John Paul II beatified them (including two other bishops, Wladyslaw Goral (1898-1945) and Leon Wetmanski (1886-1941) and many priests, like Jozef Pawlowski (1890-1942) in Kielce and Zygmunt Pisarski (1902-1943) in Lublin, who risked his life to help Jews; and religious, among them Capuchins like Anciet Koplinski (1875-1941); Franciscans like Bruno Zembol (1905-1942), and Salesians like Jozef Kowalski (1911-1942), who died at Auschwitz, not to mention nuns like Maria Antonina Kratochwil (1881-1942), a member of the School Sisters of Notre Dame (she helped Jewish girls in prison), and Maria Klemensa Staszewska (1890-1943), executed at Auschwitz because she hid Jewish girls in a convent. While fifteen of those victims were martyred at Auschwitz and forty-three at Dachau, among the others beatified were also five young Catholic men, The Martyrs of Poznan, who were associated with the Salesians were beheaded at Dresden for their part in resistance activities: Czeslaw Jozwiak (1919-1942), Edward Kazmierski (1919-1942), Edward Klinik (1919-1942), Franciszek Kesy (1920-1942), and Jarogniew Wojciechowski (1922-1942). Although at least eighty Polish Jesuits were martyred by the Nazis, none was included among the thirty-three religious beatified that day. However, it is expected that they will be included in a special ceremony at a future date when the preparation of their causes is concluded.
 Emilian Kovtch (1884-1944), a priest from the Ukrainian Eparchy of Stanislaviv (Ivano-Frankivsk) who died in ovens of Majdanek (Poland) concentration camp, as a victim of the Nazis in 1944, is scheduled for beatification in Pope John Paul II's trip to the Ukraine in June 2001.

God Bless

P.S. Evil men are not fruit, they are the weeds or chaff that Jesus promised to take care of.

[ June 20, 2003, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

Hi faithcontender,

You seem to be mixing morality and doctrine. The Catholic faith entails the fact that every Catholic is a fallen creature and thus is in need of redemption and that this redemption isn't instantaneous, but entails a lifelong process of sanctification. This means that sin among sinful people shouldn't come as a surprise. Well, it would probably be a surprise to a Donatist.

Jesus Christ said to the crowds and his disciples, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice." (Mt 23:2f)

The problem of sin among the clergy is no new phenomenon in the life of God's people, and neither is the validity of their authority, which upholds the true doctrine of the Apostles (Cf. Jude 3). This work is ultimately of the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit that keeps the faith pristine among sinful vessels. It is to He and His glory that we attribute the truth of the Catholic faith.

If the truth of doctrine as mediated by men through time (e.g. the Apostles) relied upon the holiness of such men, we would be in a world of trouble, for every man is fallen, including every man who penned Scripture. But, thanks be to God for his Spirit, Who serves as the guarantor of his bishops, the direct, historic successors to the Apostles, and Who serves as the inspirator of the Sacred Scriptures.

 

Hi Carson,

So are we going to just ignore the warning of the Lord Jesus about false prophets?

2Peter
2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Matthew
7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Besides God set up standard for the bishop:

1Timothy
3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

Titus
1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

 

Hi Carson,

Also we are commanded to separate from so called brethren that do not walk in the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans
16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

2Corinthians
6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

1Corinthians
5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

 

However - even in saying that you point to a "possible good" which is the demonstration that the "sin experiment" results in evil where sin runs rampant and atrocities, suffering and sorrow abound.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Would someone please define "theodicy" and explain exactly how the term is being used in the context of this topic?

 

Theodicy is the examination of how evil can stand in the face of good, or in more human terms, why do bad things happen to good people.

Interestingly enough, Kathryn is the only member so far to mention Job, the masterfully created Book dedicated to this subject.

The adversary knows that if he is to thwart the Purpose of God, he must assail the righteousness of man. The earthly struggle of man in the face of seeming desertion by God reflects the struggle between the forces of Heaven and hell, hence the scenes in Job of 1:6-12 and 2:1-7.

That, in a crude, hillbilly kind of nutshell, is "theodicy."

How it is being used in this topic I will leave for another to answer.

 

"The most compelling example of God's willing for sin to come to pass while at the same time disapproving the sin is his willing the death of his perfect, divine Son. The betrayal of Jesus by Judas was a morally evil act inspired immediately by Satan (Luke 22:3). Yet in Acts 2:23 Luke says, "This Jesus [was] delivered up according to the definite plan (boule) and foreknowledge of God." The betrayal was sin, and it involved the instrumentality of Satan; but it was part of God's ordained plan. That is, there is a sense in which God willed the delivering up of his Son, even though the act was sin." John Piper on the Two Wills of God

For an EXCELLENT READ here is the whole article:
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/2wills.html

[ June 21, 2003, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: Ps104_33 ]

 

Besides the whole story of Job in the Old Testament there is also:

Jeremiah 31:13
"Then the virgin will rejoice in the dance,
And the young men and the old, together,
For I will turn their mourning into joy and will comfort them and give them joy for their sorrow. .


And in the New Testament it is Jesus Christ who fulfills all the promises and turns sorrow into joy:

Hebrews 12:11
All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness .


God Bless

P.S. Will those who do not believe in God find joy in their sorrow? No. This is just part of the gospel message to those who believe. Jesus Christ makes all things new. All of the pain and suffering of this world are turned into joy for those who believe.

"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28

God Bless

 

Do not overlook the title of Jesus, "the Lamb of God, slain from the foundation of the world" God did not decide after seeing mankind and them in all there sinfulness that something must be done to correct the situation. He knew before the foundation of the world (before Creation) that He would send His only begotten Son, the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, into the world to be the unblemished sacrificial lamb that atones for the sins of all mankind. AND, He knew the how and why, and He knew the who of every one who would play a part in the conception, the gestation period, the birth and the life of His only Son. He even had the Name picked out before he created the heavens and the earth! WOW! AND, Man didn't really have a clue! The pieces of the puzzle were not readily identified until the presence of the Messiah revealed them.