What the Devil is going on?

Jude · Jun 3, 2004

During Jesus' temptation, the Devil says,

Matt. 4.8-9 ...the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

He seems to be trying to sway Jesus from the Cross. But 3 years later, the Devil...

Luke 22.3-4 Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus.

...seems to want Jesus ON the Cross. What the Devil is going on?

Just seems like an interesting question...

Paul of Eugene · Jun 3, 2004

The devil was solely interested in disrupting Jesus' mission on earth. He thought by tempting him he could distract him.

Then he thought he could stop Him by getting Him killed instead.

He didn't realize that was actually going to be his downfall instead of his success.

Jude · Jun 4, 2004

Or maybe (in Mt 4)the Devil really had no idea about the Cross...but was just trying to get Jesus to join him...

Watchman · Jun 4, 2004

Let me throw in my two cents here. None of us knows the mind of the devil. However, I feel he was in a lose-lose situation here. In his mind (perhaps):
Jesus lives:
He becomes the Messiah that the Jews envisioned: Getting rid of the Romans, ruling from the thrown of David, in essense, the return of Theocracy: God's direct rule on earth. What would happen to him in this scenario? Would he be swept aside with the Romans? The affect would be immediate.
Jesus dies:
The devil knew Ps. 22, Is. 53 and others. Whatever the result of the death of the Lord Jesus would be, perhaps the affects would not be immediate (giving him time)and the devil would have to deal with whatever happens.
I admit, this is all guess work.

Paul of Eugene · Jun 4, 2004

1 Cor 2:7-8
7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;

8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
NASU

The mystery of the ages revealed in these last days is precisely that by the death of Jesus men are saved. It was kept as a mystery (secret) until after the death had occurred so that Satan would not turn down the chance to cause the death. After the fact, we see so plainly the old testament scriptures that teach of His atoning sacrifice; but that's hindsight for you.

Jim1999 · Jun 4, 2004

We must remember that the devil has an amazing knowledge of scripture, but he is not all-knowing. He cannot foretell the future. He can only walk in the present. He is like the modern man who designs his own destiny by knowledge, but cannot know events beyond his influence. Something like the old saying: "Everyone talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it."

Cheers,

Jim

HankD · Jun 4, 2004

Jesus gave the devil the bum's rush "get thee behind me..." now he is trying to even the score.

revenge has no logic to it.

HankD

Pete · Jun 4, 2004

Interesting question Jude.

After Jesus taught from Isaiah in the synagogue at Nazareth the crowd chased Him out of town to throw Him off the cliff. He just walked through the crowd (Luke 4:16-30).

In John's Gospel after Jesus' "...before Abraham was, I AM" statement in 8:58 the Jews picked up stones to stone him, however Jesus hid and then left the temple (v59). Later in John 10:30 Jesus makes His "I and the Father are one." statement, with the Jews again picking up stones in v31. He escaped from them in v39.

My guesses and $2 will get a can of Coke and some change...but anyway...My guess is Satan would have been well aware of what Jesus said in conversation with Nicodemus in John 3 "...as Moses lifted...", and could have understood from prophecy what God had planned. Perhaps these other attempts on Jesus life beforehand were a result of that? As for the cross, being a Roman method of execution maybe the thought was there that if arrested by the Jews they would just stone Jesus, or He would "meet with an accident" some other way.

Whatever the events were behind the scenes leading up to Jesus' death & resurrection we can only guess at. As for now however we know even the devil knows his time is short (Revelation 12:12).

BobRyan · Jun 4, 2004

The devil is in fact Lucifer - one of the highest order of created being in the universe. A covering Cherub initially until his fall. He was able to confuse the minds of 1/3 of the angels enough to deceive them in the full light of day -- into following him and losing their place in heaven. No mean feat as they say.

The "devil is stupid" argument does not work in that context.

When Satan tempted Christ - it was out of a great deal of first hand information about the Father and the Son. He knew exactly what he was doing.

Also - the payment for sin (atonement for sin) is NOT punishment by Romans or betrayal by Jews OR insults and mockery of the cross. All that was ADDED - sinful man yielding to Satan's evil promptings.

The payment for sin - required that Christ "really" suffer the pain and suffering that comes from the punishment for all sins of all sinners in all time. That could only be done supernaturally - and in fact could have been done in the garden of gethsemane alone.

That has nothing to do with Jews, or Romans or sticks and stones or cuts and bruises or even insults.

In Matt 4 Satan is trying to stop Jesus from paying the price of atonement for the sins of all mankind.

But at the cross he tries to disuade Jesus by stirring up the worst in mankind - to make mankind so disgusting in the sight of God - that He WOULD not choose to die for us.

BOTH tactics were brilliantly designed to accomplish the same goal.

The devil is evil - but not stupid.

In Christ,

Bob

Marcia · Jun 4, 2004

Posted by Bob Ryan:

The payment for sin - required that Christ "really" suffer the pain and suffering that comes from the punishment for all sins of all sinners in all time. That could only be done supernaturally - and in fact could have been done in the garden of gethsemane alone.

Bob, the payment for sin had to be the shedding of blood, that is, the death of Jesus. he NT tells us in many places it was his death that was the atonement. Your statement that it could have been done in the Garden of Gesthsemane is very much like what the Mormons say.

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. Rom 5.6-10

Marcia · Jun 4, 2004

More -- computer would not let me post it all.

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil. Heb 2.14

For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, Col 1.19-21

As far as Satan goes, I would say that he did not understand redemption would come for men by Jesus dying on the cross. He's smart and crafty but not wise. If the gospel was a mystery until that time for men, I don't think Satan understood it. I don't think he necessarily was able to piece all those OT prophecies together even if he knew them. And since he entered Judas in order to betray Christ, I think Satan was wanting to get Christ killed or at least imprisoned. It is just like God to take something that looks like a defeat and turn it entirely around on Satan.

Jude · Jun 5, 2004

I'm really not sure the Devil understood the Cross before it happened. Perhaps, during the Temptation, he tried to get Jesus 'on his side'. When that failed, he wanted him dead. Pure speculation...

rsr · Jun 5, 2004

Bob said:

The devil is evil - but not stupid.

No, like all fallen beings, he is stupid to one degree or the other, prone to make mistakes because he, like we, judges everything within our limited contexts. Some of us are more stupid than others, it is true, but compared to God we are all deficient in understanding.

BobRyan · Jun 5, 2004

Bob, the payment for sin had to be the shedding of blood, that is, the death of Jesus. he NT tells us in many places it was his death that was the atonement. Your statement that it could have been done in the Garden of Gesthsemane is very much like what the Mormons say.

In the sense that your statement is "Catholic" in its insistence that Romans were required to pay the price of the sins of the world - I guess you could say my statement is "Mormon" - though it sounds kind of strange the way you are getting at it.

The point remains. 2Cor 5 States He was made sin for us and in 1John 2 we see that His sacrifice is the "atoning sacrifice for our sins and NOT for our sins only but for those of the whole world" and these texts - do NOT require "Romans or Jews" to "create the sacrifice for the sins of all the world.".

The truth is - no Roman guard - and no Jewish insult "could" constitute the 2nd death torment that was needed to pay the price - the debt of all the sins of all the world, needed to remain mankind. (Much as some denominations may speculate to the contrary - as you point out).

I don't argue that God did not "know" the Jews would reject Him or did not "know" the Romans would be in power to crucify Him - but I do argue that crucifixion is NOT the "price that is owed by all the sins of all mankind for all time" - else it would have been "paid" 1000's of times throughout history.

Each of the billions of sinner that has ever lived has accumulated their own debt of sin - "according to their deeds" as we see in Rev 20. Each one accumulates a personal debt as we see in Luke 12:47-49. It is a supernatural - supersized - accumulated debt of sin -- 2nd death of suffering torment and death (as we see in Rev 20 and Rev 14).

Nothing of the kind "could" have been manufactured by Romans or Jews.

The point remains.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Jun 5, 2004

In James 2 we find 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.. We never find "But the devil did not know what Christ was supposed to be doing".

In Matt 4 the devil clearly knows that the Mission of Christ is to regain the world AND that the easy way out is simply to accept it back from Satan. Christ does not argue "You don't have anything to give". The temptation was "real".

Satan can read Isaiah 53 with even more insight than a human (believe it or not). His work was consistently designed to stop Christ from making that sacrifice. In Matt 4 it was to "Take an easy win at the price of a little humility" - in the Garden of Gethsemane it was to see the horrendous nature of betrayal and the ingratitude and evil in the heart of mankind - to drive Him back repulsed by the sinful nature of man.

In Gethsemane it was separation from the FAther and the weight of the sins of the world that cause Him to sweat great drops of blood WITHOUT a single Roman around or a single Jew to insult Him.

With Judas and the evil wicked treatment dished out by Romans and Jews - it was to so degrade mankind in the sight of God as to cause Him to walk away in disgust.

The plan was consistent - pointed and difficult to endure in all cases. The "stupid angel" ideas fall short of encompassing all the details of the problem Christ faced because of Satans plans.

The supernatural debt owed - was placed upon Christ by God Himself. It was the debt of suffering owed by billions of humans in all of time.

The term "shedding of blood" had to do with execution and dying - and applied to strangled victims, those who were stoned, those who were hanged as well as those who were cut. Christ died the 2nd death on our behalf - and that is what all lost sinners will die if they do not accept His substitutionary atoning death in their behalf.

In Christ,

Bob

Marcia · Jun 5, 2004

Bob, I am confused as to how the Romans have anything to do with this. Yes, technically they crucified Jesus, but that was planned by God. His death on the cross was the atoning sacrifice and the Romans had nothing to do with the atonement -- they merely provided a means of death which God chose.

but I do argue that crucifixion is NOT the "price that is owed by all the sins of all mankind for all time" - else it would have been "paid" 1000's of times throughout history.

The crucifixion was the atonement and the atonement paid for sins. Jesus said, "The debt is paid" on the cross. However, unless we trust in Christ for that atonement, we have no forgiveness.

I am not clear on what you are saying. Are you saying that the crucifixion was not the atonement, or that the atonement did not pay for all sins? Or both?

In Gethsemane it was separation from the FAther and the weight of the sins of the world that cause Him to sweat great drops of blood WITHOUT a single Roman around or a single Jew to insult Him.

There is no Biblical support that there was a separation of Jesus from the Father in Gethsemane. Jesus did not pay for sins in the Garden (this is that Mormon doctrine I mentioned before). Do you believe that Jesus paid for sins in the Garden and not on the cross?

Jim1999 · Jun 5, 2004

I think the reference is to the death of Jesus, the shedding of blood, which is the basis of the atonement, and not the physical cross itself, even though the means was determined by the Father before time began.

We have such a limited understanding of the trinity, we often fail to appreciate that Jesus the Christ was fully man, and fully God at the same time. Oh, we know the mechanics of the trinity, but there remains a great mystery.

Jesus divested Himself of divine powers at times to fulfill the word of God. The temptations is one example, otherwise the temptations are unreal. it may also be that Jesus, the man, experienced a separation with the Father when He said, "My God, My God, why hath thou forsaken me?" Was this a real cry or was it faked?

I think there are some areas where we just can't be dogmatic on every nuance.

Cheers,

Jim

BobRyan · Jun 6, 2004

Originally posted by Marcia:
Bob, I am confused as to how the Romans have anything to do with this. Yes, technically they crucified Jesus, but that was planned by God.

The act of the Romans and the insults and treatment by Christ from the Jews is a case of wicked man doing wicked things for wicked purposes to an innocent man.

God did not "need wicked men" to atone for mankind's sin. He did not "inlist wickedness" to help him save humanity.

The fact that these wicked men did what they did - was NOT 'needed by God so He could save us'.

Christ came as the Messiah. He needed to die a supernatural death - supernaturally paying for all the sins of all humanity in all time. God was the only one that COULD put that together. No Roman, no Jew could do it. There added acts of disgusting wickedness and mistreatment only INCREASED the price that had to be paid.

Christ paid for THEIR sins as well.

Marcia

His death on the cross was the atoning sacrifice and the Romans had nothing to do with the atonement -- they merely provided a means of death which God chose.

Actually no - Christ died of a broken heart - crushed by the sins of the world. Even the Romans were amazed that he died long BEFORE their OWN cruel method should have killed him. This was in fact a sign to the guard stationed at the cross as you may recall.

God knew their wickedness and had to ADD that to the price paid to the supernatural element needed to pay for the "sins of the whole world".

Bob said --
but I do argue that crucifixion is NOT the "price that is owed by all the sins of all mankind for all time" - else it would have been "paid" 1000's of times throughout history.

Marcia said --
The crucifixion was the atonement and the atonement paid for sins. Jesus said, "The debt is paid" on the cross. However, unless we trust in Christ for that atonement, we have no forgiveness.

Misses the point. Many things are happening in the Garden of Gethsemane AND on the cross -- NOT just the unjust treatement of Christ by Romans and Jews. So yes - when Christ dies on the cross the FULL debt is paid - the atoning sacrifice is completed - but this is because of His suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane AND every step of the way to the cross - the supernatual suffering for the sin debt - a debt that was only increased by the wickedness of man towards Christ (not SOLVED by that wickedness).

In Gethsemane it was separation from the FAther and the weight of the sins of the world that cause Him to sweat great drops of blood WITHOUT a single Roman around or a single Jew to insult Him.

There is no Biblical support that there was a separation of Jesus from the Father in Gethsemane.

"My God My God why have you forsaken Me" - is the prayer of Christ - it covered the entire time - starting with His statement to the Disciples BEFORE the Romans showed up "my soul is exceedingly sorrowful EVEN to the point of Death". He was literally correct - believe it or not.

The catholic view is that the passion of Christ is what paid the debt - the passion in their view is simply the mistreatment of Christ by wicked men (Romans and Jews) according to the RCC. They have no concept of the supernatural debt and torment and suffering that could only be assigned by God and never by man. Since you are looking for "similarities with other groups" in your quest here - I note that I find this similarity in your argument with the RCC.

In Christ,

Bob

Marcia · Jun 6, 2004

Bob Ryan posted:

Actually no - Christ died of a broken heart - crushed by the sins of the world.

I am not sure if you are trying to be poetic or literal. Christ died due to the physical exertions of the crucifixion -- he died physically like the others died on crosses, but he took this on willingly. I agree that his death was worse in the suffering, however, because he was feeling the weight of sins which he took on.

Jesus said he had to be "lifted up" and by this he meant the cross, so he could not have paid for sins in the Garden. The crucifixion was God's plan. God did use wicked men -- he did not need them -- but he used them.

I am not arguing the Catholic view at all. They have a focus on the beatings that I do not think is how Jesus paid for sins. In fact, I did not even see "The Passion" because I was bothered by that and by the visions of the Catholic nun that Gibson inserted in the movie.

Jesus suffered beating for us and was sorrowful about the sins of man before the cross, but the debt was paid on the cross.

BobRyan · Jun 7, 2004

Bob Ryan posted:

Actually no - Christ died of a broken heart - crushed by the sins of the world.

Click to expand...

Maria wrote -- I am not sure if you are trying to be poetic or literal.

Click to expand...

Literal.

Christ died of a broken heart. The pericardium burst. This is the cause of two distinct streams flowing from his wound - blood and water.

That is "not" the natural result of crucifixion. The weight of the sins of the world killed Christ long before Crucifixion could have.

But in the end - was "really dead" - physically dead - as you note.

Marcia --
I agree that his death was worse in the suffering, however, because he was feeling the weight of sins which he took on.

Click to expand...

Well see. We have some hope there - you are right.

He became the "atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2.

Literally true -- Believe it or not.

And when Christ said "My soul is sorrowful even unto death" His statement was "literally" true.

Marcia --
Jesus said he had to be "lifted up" and by this he meant the cross, so he could not have paid for sins in the Garden.

Click to expand...

You confuse His foreknowledge of all future events - with "the requirement of Atonement as defined in scripture". God Himself defines the debt of sin (Rev 14:10-11, Rom 6:23, Rev 20) as the 2nd death. (Not as death on the cross BTW).

The wicked deeds of the Romans - had no "ability" to construct "the debt owed" by all humans that will ever live in all time.

One more "proof" of that is the fact that wicked men - killed by Romans (crucified by Romans) WILL STILL have to be raised again - to suffer the 2nd death in the lake of fire -- because the actions of the Romans does not even come close to what is "owed" by the sinner.

Marcia said -- God did use wicked men -- he did not need them -- but he used them.

Click to expand...

Indeed he used them to show that nothing they did meant anything at all. That Christ would go through with his mission IN SPITE of their deeds. That Christ would pay the ADDEDED DEBT that their wicked evil actions "added" to load of a World's debt of sin.

Marcia - how does your view deal with the fact that the actions of the Roman guard and the betrayal of the Jews - only "ADDS" to the problem - ADDS to the debt that Christ must pay?

In Christ,

Bob

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