Bishop's Letter on Unjustness of Iraq War

...and do we forget the millions of Baptists that were murdered by the RCC for clinging to Bible truth?

Read Foxes Book of Mrtyrs and then tell me RCC is Christian!!!

The RCC is as Christian as Islam!!!!!

Naming the name of Christ does not make one a Christain, trusting in the shed blood of Christ is God's way of becoming a Christian.

Any one who is trusting Christ will leave a system that denies Bible truth!!

 

Give me a break....if you think that Fox Book is unbiased and completely factual then you need to branch out in your reading material.

Millions of baptists? Hardly.

A person professing to be Christian is proven out by their speech and actions.

Perhaps everyone here should refelct upon their words to see if they are truly reflecting Christianity in their speech.


LaRae

 

Ernie, I am shocked as a Baptist to see the kind of anti-Catholic prejudice displayed here. We certainly don't get that kind of thing amongst Christians over here (apart from the occasional weirdos like Ian Paisley). Our church has a good relationship with all the local churches, including the Catholics. We may not agree on every point of doctrine, but I thank God that although I am sure He doesn't agree with everything I believe, He still loves me and is willing to have fellowship with me.

So Catholics have a monopoly on atrocities and persecution, do they? Aha. It's certainly convenient to try to claim that all the oppression was done by the Catholics, but it ain't so. Who pressed to death Margaret Clitherow? And why? Do you even know? http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintm54.htm

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

A just war concept antedates Christianity and can be traced back both to the Old Testament and to the teaching of Greek and Roman ethicists. The notion was Christianized by Augustine, systematized by Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century, further developed by Francisco de Vitoria in the 16th century, and endorsed by most of the Reformers. It is held by a majority of Roman Catholics and Protestants today.

Article on Lifeway web site

 

"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:35

The Pope has always led with love, not hate or vengence. He has personally been shot by a muslim, and as leader of the Catholic Church and as an individual has a right to speak out. He may not have any credibility to Baptists, but as a religious world leader who has personally been attacked by a muslim, he does have some credibility. He is living and teaching the gospel and confesses Jesus Christ to be his Redeemer and Savior.

God Bless

 

Excuse me for being honest also, but I think your comments are way out of line, brother! I know of no Baptists or Baptist churches that take this judgmental view. [/QUOTE]


Well, you obviously haven't ever attended a good American Fundamental Baptist Church.

 

Saddam - has murdered 2million Muslims. He has sent 6 million into exile by his brutal ruthless behavior.

He has executed and tortured his prisoners.

He publically executed his political opponants.

He hides his army behind his own school children, women, hospitals and churches.

He lies to his people and the world without end.

He publically sponsors/rewards terrorists.

He relies on chemical warfare to kill civilians in his own country.

His regime is famous for the rape of 1000's of Kuwaities.

Ahhhh - but of course - the RCC does not see any of that as "crimes against humanity" to the extent that a war might need to put a stop to it.

Fully understandable - after all - the RCC ALSO did not see any reason to Oppose Hitler until it was far too late.

We have come to expect what we see.

Or maybe our Catholic bretheren would consider trading up - Bush for Pope.

In Christ,

Bob

 

"Pius XII and the Jews," By historian and Rabbi David G. Dalin, which was published in the The Weekly Standard Magazine. This article is also on the web. See Feb. 26, 2001 for the article in their BOOK AND ART Section at the above URL.

... Given the recent attacks, the time has come for a new defense of Pius—because, despite allegations to the contrary, the best historical evidence now confirms both that Pius XII was not silent and that almost no one at the time thought him so.

In January 1940, for instance, the pope issued instructions for Vatican Radio to reveal "the dreadful cruelties of uncivilized tyranny" the Nazis were inflicting on Jewish and Catholic Poles. Reporting the broadcast the following week, the Jewish Advocate of Boston praised it for what it was: an "outspoken denunciation of German atrocities in Nazi Poland, declaring they affronted the moral conscience of mankind." The New York Times editorialized: "Now the Vatican has spoken, with authority that cannot be questioned, and has confirmed the worst intimations of terror which have come out of the Polish darkness." In England, the Manchester Guardian hailed Vatican Radio as "tortured Poland's most powerful advocate." ...
In March 1935, he wrote an open letter to the bishop of Cologne calling the Nazis "false prophets with the pride of Lucifer." ...
The Nazis were "diabolical," he told friends privately. Hitler "is completely obsessed," he said to his long-time secretary, Sister Pascalina. "All that is not of use to him, he destroys; . . . this man is capable of trampling on corpses." Meeting in 1935 with the heroic anti-Nazi Dietrich von Hildebrand, he declared, "There can be no possible reconciliation" between Christianity and Nazi racism; they were like "fire and water." ...
Indeed, throughout the 1930s, Pacelli was widely lampooned in the Nazi press as Pius XI's "Jew-loving" cardinal, because of the more than fifty-five protests he sent the Germans as the Vatican secretary of state. ...

When French bishops issued pastoral letters in 1942 attacking deportations, Pius sent his nuncio to protest to the Vichy government against "the inhuman arrests and deportations of Jews from the French-occupied zone to Silesia and parts of Russia." Vatican Radio commented on the bishops' letters six days in a row—at a time when listening to Vatican Radio was a crime in Germany and Poland for which some were put to death. ("Pope Is Said to Plead for Jews Listed for Removal from France," the New York Times headline read on August 6, 1942. "Vichy Seizes Jews; Pope Pius Ignored," the Times reported three weeks later.) In retaliation, in the fall of 1942, Goebbels's office distributed ten million copies of a pamphlet naming Pius XII as the "pro-Jewish pope" and explicitly citing his interventions in France. ...

A deeper examination reveals the consistent pattern. Writers like Cornwell and Zuccotti see the pope's 1941 Christmas address, for example, as notable primarily for its failure to use the language we would use today. But contemporary observers thought it quite explicit. In its editorial the following day, the New York Times declared, "The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas. . . .

In calling for a ‘real new order' based on ‘liberty, justice, and love,' . . . the pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism."
So, too, the pope's Christmas message the following year—in which he expressed his concern "for those hundreds of thousands who, without any fault of their own, sometimes only by reason of their nationality or race, are marked down for death or progressive extinction"—was widely understood to be a public condemnation of the Nazi extermination of the Jews. Indeed, the Germans themselves saw it as such: "His speech is one long attack on everything we stand for. . . . He is clearly speaking on behalf of the Jews. . . . He is virtually accusing the German people of injustice toward the Jews, and makes himself the mouthpiece of the Jewish war criminals," an internal Nazi analysis reads. ...

A Dutch bishops' pastoral letter condemning "the unmerciful and unjust treatment meted out to Jews" was read in Holland's Catholic churches in July 1942. The well-intentioned letter—which declared that it was inspired by Pius XII—backfired. As Pinchas Lapide notes: "The saddest and most thought-provoking conclusion is that whilst the Catholic clergy in Holland protested more loudly, expressly, and frequently against Jewish persecutions than the religious hierarchy of any other Nazi-occupied country, more Jews—some 110,000 or 79 percent of the total—were deported from Holland to death camps." ...

But Zuccotti, ... Cornwell's vicious attack in Hitler's Pope ... All are about using the sufferings of Jews fifty years ago to force changes upon the Catholic Church today.
It is this abuse of the Holocaust that must be rejected. A true account of Pius XII would arrive, I believe, at exactly the opposite to Cornwell's conclusion: Pius XII was not Hitler's pope, but the closest Jews had come to having a papal supporter—and at the moment when it mattered most.


http://members.aol.com/johnjrh/pius.html

 

No, and if that's what they believe I certainly have no desire to! It's scarcely a good advert for them

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

You called Ian Paisley a "weirdo".
Well, atleast when he stood up in parliament and called the Pope the Anti-Christ, he was telling the truth. I would consider it a blessing for God to put 100 Ian Paisley in the US Senate.

May the Lord Bless Ian Paisley in his ministry, serving the United Kingdom.

http://www.ianpaisley.org/main.asp

In Christ,
The Baptist Tape Maker

 

Perhaps I should wait for Enda to respond to this, but I'm afraid I can't let that pass without comment.

By all means take Paisley off our hands - you're welcome to him - if you want to stir up communal tensions and violence in the US. This is a man who has 'helped' the situation in Northern Ireland in the late 60s, when he was one of the most vociferous voices calling for Catholics to be denied voting and other Civil Rights (try changing 'Catholic' to 'black' and you'll see what I mean), and has helped to deadlock a peaceful solution to the Province's woes ever since - hardly a good Christian role model. So, sure, if you want Dr Ian bellowing his hatred of Catholicism on the streets of New York and marching up and down the streets with his band of merry Orangemen every St Patrick's Day, please, please, pretty-please-with-sugar-on-top, have him

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Because he's a fellow-Christian, and last time I looked, it was at least good manners to pay attention to what other Christians, particularly those of some standing in the church, have to say.

Yours in Christ

Matt </font>[/QUOTE]I am sorry. But I think I have to disagree with you there.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Bro. M. Black, If you would like we could go in halves financing a voyage for Mr. Paisley.
Or better yet we could trade, how does Ted Kennedy for Ian Paisley sound?
In Christ,
Baptist Tape Maker

 

Just putting my voice in to support all the RCC doubters. The pope calling this war a sin ? Sin stains his church, and his victims are countless. I seem to remember, from my catechism days, someting about taking the log out of your own eye, before letting someone else know about the speck in theirs...

Luke 4:23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself....

And we know that the RCC is attempting to coddle the Muslim faith, it's evedent in her papers.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]

I hold the pope's condemnation at about the same place I hold the Dixie Chick's. Not very high.

Matt Black I dissagree most vehemently.

 

Ok, let's all proof-text, shall we? Go re-read Rom 14 before you presume in your holier-than-thou sanctity to judge a fellow-Christian.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

The Pope has NOT called the war a sin. There has been alot of reports about what the Pope has supposedly said. If you bother to search it out you will find that the Pope has not said near what some people claim he has.....vatican "officials' are NOT the Pope and they don't speak for him in this capacity.


LaRAe

 

The Pope has NOT called the war a sin. There has been alot of reports about what the Pope has supposedly said. If you bother to search it out you will find that the Pope has not said near what some people claim he has.....vatican "officials' are NOT the Pope and they don't speak for him in this capacity.


LaRAe </font>[/QUOTE]So is the pope not in control of his church. Is he no longer fit to lead that they are making statements without his approval?

Joseph Botwinick

 

The Pope has NOT called the war a sin. There has been alot of reports about what the Pope has supposedly said. If you bother to search it out you will find that the Pope has not said near what some people claim he has.....vatican "officials' are NOT the Pope and they don't speak for him in this capacity.


LaRAe </font>[/QUOTE]So is the pope not in control of his church. Is he no longer fit to lead that they are making statements without his approval?

Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]Catholics are free to disagree about the war situation. This includes Bishops/Priests. They are not speaking on the pope's behalf...they are giving their own opinions. The Pope has given his also.

I'm sure you aren't trying to tell me that ALL Baptist ministers agree with everything and each other.


LaRae

 

Since Baptist ministers are mostly independant, answering only to the Allmighty himself, the argument is moot. If you say the pope is in charge of the church, and you also say the RCC is Christ's own church, but it's members are free to disagree, that's pretty convoluted.

 

No, it is not convoluted, because it is not an issue of doctrine by any means of the word. It is an a time and situationaly-specific instance in the world. Certainly, there are wars that are just and unjust. There is killing in war that is done justly and unjustly, no doubt, on both sides of the playing field. There are times when it is sin, and times when it is not.

Now, since we are not on the front lines, we can't know these specific instances, and therefore, cannot pass specific judgements that are definitely correct.

The Pope, and any bishop or priest, is free to give his opinion on the justness/sinfullness of the war or specific actions that occur therein. But there information is secondhand, just as ours is. And they are voicing opinions, of which they feel is correct, and as Catholics, we greatly respect these opinions. But these are not binding matters, because the war in NO WAY involves all Catholics worldwide. I'm not in the war. It affects me, but implicitly, not explictly. Therefore, the Pope cannot make a pronouncement that is infallible in regards to the war, because I am not involved in it (plus, it is a temporal affair).

Either way, you are pushing (again) the false assumption that Catholics are bound by everything John Paul II says. We are not. We take what he says very seriously, but if it is not a universal, doctrinal or matter of faith, it is his opinion, and not a teaching of the Church.

I hope you understand that better now.

God bless,

Grant