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Free-willers used to kill and persecute

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rippon, Apr 5, 2006.

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  1. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Gordon Clark ( 1902-1985 ) is a favorite of mine .I have a lot of his books . He was a philosopher/theologian . I am not inclined toward philosophy that much . So I have his more overtly theological works . Perhaps one of his best is Religion , Reason and Revelation . Chapter 5 of that was put into booklet form . It is called God and Evil . Dr.Clark cited Augustus Toplady regarding my title heading .

    Gottshalk , who believed in double -predestination was incarcerated for more than two decades and tortured too . He spoke of the reprobate Jews : ' Our Lord perceived that they were predestinated to everlasting destruction and were not purchased with the price of his blood . '( page 23 )

    Clark cites Toplady , who quotes John of Wesalia : " God hath from everlasting written a book wherein he hath inscribed all his elect ; and whosoever is not already written there will never be written there at all . Moreover he that is written therein will never be blotted out . " ( page 23 )JoW was tortured because of those kind of statements .

    Clark says on pages 24 and 25 : Patrick Hamilton's sentence of death read : ' We , James , by the mercy of God , archbishop of St. Andrews , primate of Scotland , have found Master Patrick Hamilton many ways inflamed with heresy ... that man hath no free will . '

    Clark : Richard Woodman , who was burned at the stake with nine other martyrs at Lewes in Sussex , answered his examiners : ' If we have free will , then our salvation cometh of ourselves : which is a great blasphemy against God and his Word . ' Richard Gibson , examined by the Bishop of London , was called upon to profess that ' a man hath by God's grace a free choice and will in his doing . ' Gibson denied the proposition and was burned to death with two others others in Smithfield . Thirty-four persons were persecuted and expelled from the towns of Winston and Mendelsham because 'they denied man's free will and held that the Pope's church did err . '( pages 25,26)
     
    #1 Rippon, Apr 5, 2006
  2. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Enough is enough. This is nothng more than inflammatory.

    Can't you Calvinists and Arminians just shut up, for Christ's sake?

    I am seriously thinking of closing any more threads that deal with Calvinism-Arminianism because you folks cannot behave and insist upon ascribing the basest motives to your opponents, and it goes both ways.
     
    #2 rsr, Apr 5, 2006
  3. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    I apologize for my unChristlike outburst. I should never have said "shut up" and I did not intend to squelch debate.
     
    #3 rsr, Apr 5, 2006
  4. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Well , let's just deal with these interesting historical facts .
     
    #4 Rippon, Sep 10, 2007
  5. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    "Free willers" do not kill and persecute. Wicked sinful men do. It has nothing to do with being a "free willer".

    I have had many fruitful and pleasant discussions lately with my Calvinist friends, but this will not be one of them.
     
    #5 Amy.G, Sep 10, 2007
  6. donnA

    donnA Active Member

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    thats probably why it wasn't a good thing that the c&a forum was closed.
     
    #6 donnA, Sep 10, 2007
  7. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    We should be above reproach

    While the information presented is informative to know how Christians have suffered in the past, and may encourage us to hold fast our faith in Jesus Christ, to title a thread the way it is was even offensive to me, a staunch calvinist. And I cannot see how such inflamatory slogans can advance the cause of God and truth and hold us out to be above reproach.

    Rippon, brother, is there another way? :praying:
     
    #7 ReformedBaptist, Sep 10, 2007
  8. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Facts are stubborn things RB . It is illuminating to see some history . Notice I did not say that "Free-Willers Kill And Persecute " . The Title of the OP was using the past-tense .
     
    #8 Rippon, Sep 10, 2007
  9. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Do you think if I were to start a thread titled, "Calvinists used to kill and persecute" that you might consider it to be inflammatory?
     
    #9 Amy.G, Sep 10, 2007
  10. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    Well, I don't want to debate the point with you brother, but I think you lost your audience.
     
    #10 ReformedBaptist, Sep 10, 2007
  11. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    I would. :saint:
     
    #11 ReformedBaptist, Sep 10, 2007
  12. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Absolutely.

    Now, count up the times people have tried to discredit calvinism by accusing Calvin of being a murderer of Servetus (without even learning the details of how it all went down). Then count up the times anyone has accused ANY free-willer of killing or murder. That should put things in perspective for you. ;)
     
    #12 npetreley, Sep 10, 2007
  13. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Is this thread intended to even up the score?

    I haven't accused anybody of anything. I have tried to be gracious, but I find the title of this thread offensive.

    It doesn't matter how many time "free willers" (I really hate that name) accused Calvin of murder or whatever. You shouldn't return venom with venom. Calvinism/Free will rises or falls on Scripture alone, not personal childish attacks.
     
    #13 Amy.G, Sep 10, 2007
  14. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. Amy, while I'm in concert with my Calvinistic brethren here on BB as we espouse the doctrines of grace as taught in Scripture, I will have to agree with you on the title of this thread.

    2. The title of the thread may not be the best. You are quite correct in your criticism of the thread's title.
     
    #14 TCGreek, Sep 10, 2007
  15. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I didn't start the thread, so I don't know. My point was only that if you find it offensive, then how do you think calvinists feel all those times when people dredge up the Servetus affair? The solution would be to stop yelling "murder" on both sides.
     
    #15 npetreley, Sep 10, 2007
  16. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Thanks RB and TC.

    :wavey:
     
    #16 Amy.G, Sep 10, 2007
  17. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I suppose you feel offended as well. But we shouldn't return the insults with insults. That's all I'm saying.

    I prefer the term "doctrine of grace" rather than Calvinism. That way only the doctrine is being discussed and not the man.
     
    #17 Amy.G, Sep 10, 2007
  18. David Lamb

    David Lamb Well-Known Member

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    So do I, Amy.
     
    #18 David Lamb, Sep 11, 2007
  19. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4 New Member

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    The op lacks a certain level of maturity.
     
    #19 2 Timothy2:1-4, Sep 11, 2007
  20. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    Brethren,

    Let's regard our brother's choice of title as a poor decision and spring from his zeal for truth, but not necessarily the best part of wisdom. And let us show all kindness and compassion and forgiveness, and so glorify our Father who is in heaven.
     
    #20 ReformedBaptist, Sep 11, 2007
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