Do we need to have the Holy Ghost to be saved?

Lorelei:
Yes, baptism is essential for salvation. Acts 2:38, I Pet. 3:21 and a host of other passages.

 

Posted by MEE
[QUOTEfirst let me say that my belief, in God, is not "heretical or cultic!"[/QUOTE]
As long as baptism (a work of man) is considered a part of salvation it is heretical.

The New Testament Church started on the Day of Pentecost. God, who omniscient, knew about before time began, but it did not begin until the Day of Pentecost.

I don't do away with any book, including Acts. I love the Bible, every book. There are many cults that use the Book of Ecclesiastes to teach soul sleep, or to teach the non-existence of Hell. You are like those cults, taking Scripture in the Book of Acts (instead of Ecclesiastes) out of context to prove your own presuppositions (that baptism saves). I can (and it seems already have) explained all those verses to you already (like Acts 2:38). But you don't want to accept the truth. I explained repentance to you out of the Book of Romans (which you said didn't even exist), and you didn't accept it. What does the Book of Romans have to say about those who don't accept the truth?

Rom.1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
--This verse was not written about Christians MEE, Take heed unto your own salvation. If your salvation is by works (by baptism), it is not salvation at all. You are not trusting in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Let me put this quite plainly.

Jesus said in John 19:30, "It is finished!" Folks like MEE,, ONENESS, and Frank, who all believe that baptism is essential to salvation are basically saying to Jesus: "No Jesus, hold on there; You are lying to us. Salvation is not finished. We have to do our part. We have to be baptized. You didn't finish salvation on the cross. We have to finish it ourselves when we get baptized. Jesus you are deceiving us when you say "It is finished." It is not finished. People still have to be baptized before their salvation is finished. It can't be finished. That is an impossibility. Only when one is baptized is salvation finished. Jesus didn't pay for our sins at all. Why we paid for them when we were baptized!" Right?

And I say Heresy!!

Yes they were God's children; they were saved. And this is what Paul wrote:
"All (of you) have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Rom.3:23

Romans 3:10-18
10 There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
--Those are such kind sweet words to those saintly Christians at Rome who already knew the gospel.

Likewise: Romans 1:26-32
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
--Such kind sweet words written to these "backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant breakers, etc.
--Oh yes they were Christians. Do you understand the gospel MEE??

WHY? MEE, I am concerned for you. The reason is this: Believing that baptism is part of salvation; trusting in baptism to save you will send you to Hell just as fast as the religion of Satan himself. To believe that baptism is necessary to be a part of the Bride of Christ is lie right out of the pit of Hell. You don't seem to understand the gospel message.
That is why, over and over again, I challenge you to study the Book of Romans, which thoroughly explains salvation, and then explain to me what salvation is from the Book of Romans.
DHK

 

Frank,

A person is saved when the Spirit is within them, baptism or no baptism. Eph 1:13-14, Romans 8:9-11 among others.

~Lorelei

 

Posted by ONENESS:

And so? Water baptism is not part of salvation. And the Book of Romans does not teach that it is. That is where you have a problem.

Sorry, you failed the test. Those three verses in themselves do not explain the plan of salvation.

And Genesis was established before them all. Genesis, like the Book of Acts is a book of history. Genesis, like Acts tells of events according to a basic chronology. In Acts Paul went on three missionary journeys, established about a hundred churches. In the epistles he gives instructions (theology) to those churches and their pastors. Part of that theology or instruction included the theology of soteriology or salvation, i.e., the plan of salvation or the gospel.

Then go back to the Book of Genesis. That is where everything first started. See answer given above.

The answer never did change, only your interpretation of the answer changed. And if I tell you the truth you will reject it again.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Mat.12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Now look closely at these two verses, and understand them.
Acts 2:38 "Repent and be baptized..for the remission of sins"
Mat.12:41 "Repent at the preaching of Jonas"
The words "for" in Acts, and "at" in Matthew, are the same preposition in the Greek, and mean the same thing. In Matthew a more distinct translation would be: Repent "because" of the preaching of Jonah, not "unto." "Unto" or "for" would not make sense. The word "for" in Acts 2:38 means "because of," that is, "be baptized because of the remission of sins, or because your sins have been forgiven. However this thread is not about Acts 2:38. It can be discussed ad infinitum, perhaps in another thread.

Paul is referring to the doctrine of the last sixteen chapters of the epistle which he just taught them.

Where did you learn this? Are you a Catholic? It was Paul that wrote this epistle instructing them.

Correction: In the verses you quoted not the adjectives before the word "doctrine:" "Your" doctrine, "new" doctrine. Acts is a history book, accurately recording events as they unfolded. The epistles which followed instructed the believers about this "new" doctrine which they had first heard about in the Book of Acts.

Being baptized is not part of salvation. Obedience to Him comes after salvation. Salvation is a free gift to all who accept his sacrifice by faith and faith alone.

"We walk by faith and not by sight" What did you not see when you were being baptized, that you had to accept or walk by faith. Was the water there? Was the pastor there? Were you there?
No, baptism is not by faith; it is by sight. Everyone sees every part of it. And it is a work, done not by God, but by man. To say otherwise is to lie. To include it as part of your salvation takes away from the sufficiency of the blood of Christ.
DHK

 

DHK, after reading your last few posts, all I have to say to you is, have a happy Thanksgiving Day! I don't know how that will happen, with a man with such bitterness and hatred in his heart, but try for your families sake!

Those posts were pathetic!!!!

Carol

 

DHK:
I have proven with the scriptures water baptism is essential to the salvation of the sinner. The fact you do not accept or do not agree with it simply is one of the choices God gives. John 12:48. You choose te reject truth in favor of error. II Thes. 2:9-11.
You ignore the scripture and the implications of scripture by making arrogant and innane statements such as you failed the test.
You can search the scriptures today, tomorow and for a thousand years or until the Lord comes and the Bible will still read, no matter what you or a million false teachers like you say, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38. The Bible will still read Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all them that OBEY HIM. Hebtrews 5:9. It will still read he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mk. 16:16. It will still read, arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins calling on the name of the Lord. It will still read, This is the work of God that YE believe on him whom he hath sent." John 7:29. It will still read, You see then that how by works a man is justified and NOT by faith only." James 2:24. It will still read was not Abraham our father justiifed by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar. James 2:21.

 

Two points MEE: If the posts were pathetic why are you unable to refute them? Why are you unable to present the gospel through the Book of Romans?

Second: My posts seem to bother you a lot. Why? Because I tell you the truth? Here is quote from my previous post. Is this what you are referring to when you say "a man filled with such bitterness and hatred in his heart"

Note the first sentence carefully MEE: "I am concerned for you." I am genuinely concerned for your eternal welfare, for if you truly believe that salvation depends upon your baptism, you will fall short of Heaven.
DHK

 

I have searched the Scriptures; it is obvious you have not, nor have you proven or demonstrated or given any evidence of any kind that baptism is essential to salvation. You need to rely on a couple of pet verses like Acts 2:38, which you obviously don't know the meaning of, to prove your doctring. You have spoken before of the totality of Scripture. Let us look and see what the Scripture says on this matter.

Throughout the Book of Acts we have example after example of individuals getting saved under the sound of the gospel. In every sermon that is preached the central theme is the resurrection. In every account that is given, those that are saved are saved by faith and faith alone. There are so many today that come along and twist what the Bible has to say about salvation. Consider some examples here.

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

The ones on the day of Pentecost were saved when the heard the Word of God. That is when they received it, and Christ as Saviour. Then they were baptized, and then added to the church in Jerusalem.

Acts 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.
Belief in the gospel is the only requirement for salvation. They believed and were saved--about 5,000 of them.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
The Samaritans believed the gospel, and were saved, and then baptized.

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
The Ethiopian Eunuch believed the gospel, and then was baptized.

Acts 10:42 And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.
Under the preaching of Peter in Joppa many believed the gospel and were saved.

Acts 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.
Here, Peter was at Antioch preaching, and a great number believed the gospel and turned to the Lord, and were saved.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
The Gentiles believed the gospel and were saved.

Acts 14:1 And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.
In Iconium both Jews and Greeks believed the gospel and were saved.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
The Philippian jailor believed, and then afterward was saved.

Acts 17:4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
Those at Thessalonica believed: a great multitude--they believed the gospel.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
The people of Berea, having searched the Scriptures believed the gospel and were saved.

Acts 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33 So Paul departed from among them.
34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
Here Paul is in Athens. Note his emphasis on the resurrection. Upon belief in the resurrection, certain believed. Others mocked and turned away unconvinced. They would hear him again. It would take more than one presentation of the gospel to convince them.

Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
Here in Corinth, Crispus heard the gospel, believed and was saved.

Acts 19:17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.
18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and showed their deeds.
Paul is in Ephesus, and preaches the gospel. Many are saved.

Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Finally in Rome, near the end of Paul's life we see Paul testifying of Christ. Some believed the gospel; some did not.

Throughout these many examples we see that salvation is by faith alone.
Eph.2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Salvation is by the grace of God. It is all of grace. By grace are ye saved. It is only by the grace of God that Christ came and died for us in the first place. We don't deserve it. He died for us because He loved us. It was His grace; not our merit; not anything that we could do.
Then it says that we are saved through faith. By faith we accept that sacrifice provided for us through the grace of God. That is what salvation is all about.
DHK

 

DHK,
Just a thought for you to ponder.

A painter paints a picture and if he
or she is any good they will expect
many different people to see different
things.

God, I guess, is an artist
(amongst other things). His poor
old dad used to cut pictures and shapes
into wood for a living.

The bible story is to some extent artistic.

It follows from this that we should
all see things slightly differently.

To prove "too much" (what ever I mean
by that) from the bible and brow beat others
into seeing it might lead to
a Nazi regime instead of its message
speaking personally to you.

For theological stances it might be
best to stick (on the whole) to traditions
passed down to us via the catholic or
orthodox church since the time of the
apostles.

Net.

[ November 28, 2002, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: Netcurtains3 ]

 

What heresy are you trying to espouse? The eternal Father does not have a "Dad" himself. What a blasphemous thought that is!

Differently? How differently?
Jesus said unto him: I am the way the truth and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me. (John 14:6)
Jesus is the only way. There is only one way to see things. If you see things differently, you are in danger of going to Hell, for Jesus is the only Way. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

Do you dare to equate the sacrificial love of Jesus' love, and Him dying on the cross for your sins to Hitlers slaughter of millions of Jews. Shame on you!

As Jesus said to the Samaritan woman who also liked to stick to her traditions: "Ye know not what you speak of."

(John 5:39 KJV) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
DHK

 

Hi,
I'm not sure we're talking about the same Jesus.
My Jesus had a mum called Mary and a dad called Joe. The fact that it was a virgin birth does not alter this one iota. What is your evidence that Jesus had no mum or dad?

 

"God, I guess is a painter, His poor old Dad is.."

When one begins to read literature that begins with God, it is automatically assumed that he is talking about the Father. I thought that is what you had in mind.

 

It looks like things are still the same here. I've been absent for a couple months and I thought I would drop by and see how the debate was going.

With all the scripture laid out in plain sight and even interperted wonderfully by Don and DHK, Oneness and Mee still believe that water has a part in one's initial salvation.
How sad that they still reject the free gift that God has so mercifully given us, only if we ask and have the faith to believe and receive it.
How sad that they believe they have to assist God in their salvation.
And what the saddest of all is, that this false gospel is spreading like wildfire.

I thank God for soldiers like Don and DHK defending the shed blood of Christ. I pray that you never back down and that you will continue to expose this false gospel.
I deal with it everyday being married to a oneness. But God has really blessed me and I have turned it over to HIM. Resist the devil and he will flee.
Thank God for His marvelous GRACE!!!
I pray that Oneness and Mee will open their hearts and eyes and let God lead them. Only the blood of Jesus will wash away our sins. His blood is so precious, let's not equate it with water.
And I say this with great love. Every soul is precious in God's eyes. If we disagree with you, Oneness and Mee, please understand that we still love you.
Sometimes we all, (myself including), need to be still and let God be God. Just say, " here I am, Lord, what would You have me do today to bring glory to Your name?"

In Christ's love
Suan

 

Hey, Susan; how are ya doing?

Feel free to private message me.

 

God bless you Susan.
Will pray for you.

DHK

 

Mee, (anyone)

I am still waiting for an answer to my question.

Can a person have the Spirit and not be saved?

I refer you to the verse that was posted to start this thread:

Is there a reason that you have not answered this question?

~Lorelei

 

You say you prefer the KJV, but to explain what you believe you point us to the UPC?

~Lorelei

 

I'm just kinda surprised to see all this foolishness about a simple question(s)

Do we need the Holy Ghost to be saved.
The answer to all interpretations is yes

Is a saved man is full of the Spirit? Yes

Is an unsaved man drawn and empowered to make a free will choice by the Holy Spirit? Yes

Sheeesh