Do we need to have the Holy Ghost to be saved?

MEE · Dec 7, 2002

Originally posted by Lorelei:
MEE,

It's just what DHK says, it is something we do out of obedience to Christ. It portrays physically what already happened spiritually.

Again, I have answered your question, will you answer mine?

~Lorelei

I don't know what you've asked that I haven't answered.

I have said that you have to repent, be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and receive the Holy Ghost in order to be saved. See Acts 2:38, 8:14-17, (..baptism, but no Spirit, as of yet) 10:44-48, ...received Holy Ghost,but can't forbid water baptism) 19:1-6 (..rebaptized and received Holy Ghost) 22:16 (..baptized..washing away sins, calling on the name of the Lord) Romans 6:3-4 ( ..buried with him by baptism into death) Gal. 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

How can you say that one doesn't have to be baptized? That's like saying that you don't have to repent or have the Spirit of God. It just doesn't make sense.

Lorelei · Dec 7, 2002

Saying that one has to be baptized is like saying that the Spirit really has no effect on you at all. The Spirit is what gives us LIFE. Christ came so that you might have life. For the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. I have shown scriptures that say the when you have the Spirit you now have life. If you have the Spirit you will be raised just as Jesus was. If you have the Spirit you are guaranteed your inheritance. You refuse to look at this because you have been programmed that you have to DO 3 things in order to be saved. Forget all that for just one second and LOOK at what the Bible says is the role of the Holy Spirit.

Eph 4:30

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption
KJV

This verse tells me that the Holy Spirit has sealed me until the day of redemption. There is no mention of baptism whatsoever and IF it were necessary for baptism to save this verse could not be true. Otherwise this verse would have to explain that the Holy Spirit entered a man whenever he felt like it but didn't seal him until that man had done the 3 necessary things to actually save himself.

You just keep telling me what you have been programmed to believe. You must do x y and z to be saved. But this violates all the scriptures that confirm that the Holy Spirit IS what gives us life. The Holy Spirit IS what seals you as a child of God. The Holy Spirit IS your ticket into the kingdom of heaven and guarantees your seat as the Bride of Christ.

My question remains, how can one do ANYTHING else to be saved after the Holy Spirit has done all of this? How can a person filled with the Spirit rot in hell? How can the Bible tell us we are guaranteed something if we still have more to do? Do these verses lie?

~Lorelei

MEE · Dec 7, 2002

Originally posted by Lorelei:
[QB]Saying that one has to be baptized is like saying that the Spirit really has no effect on you at all. The Spirit is what gives us LIFE.

**I never said that the Spirt has no effect on anyone.

You refuse to look at this because you have been programmed that you have to DO 3 things in order to be saved. Forget all that for just one second and LOOK at what the Bible says is the role of the Holy Spirit.

**I have not been programmed to do anything. I've been taught by the Word of God. No, I don't think it is a good idea to forget what is in the Word.

You just keep telling me what you have been programmed to believe. You must do x y and z to be saved.

**As I said before, "I have not been programmed!" The Bible says that you have to repent, be baptized, and receive the Holy Ghost. Lorelei, I didn't write the Book. Why do you want to dismiss water baptism and hold to repentance and being Spirit filled?

My question remains, how can one do ANYTHING else to be saved after the Holy Spirit has done all of this? How can a person filled with the Spirit rot in hell? How can the Bible tell us we are guaranteed something if we still have more to do? Do these verses lie?

**No the verses don't lie. You are taking scriptures that are talking about the Spirit and neglecting the ones on water baptism because you have been taught that you don't have to be baptized. It's just some kind of formality or something to you Baptists. I really don't know where you all get your information about baptism as just something you do if you want.

I haven't read that anyone can "forbid water baptism" according to the Bible. Let me refresh your memory! Acts 10:47) Can any man FORBID WATER, that these should not be BAPTIZED, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

I really don't know why I even bother to respond. The only thing, for me, that has come out of reading on the BB is that I have learned what you all believe. I'll have to say, "It's been interesting!"

Carol

DHK · Dec 7, 2002

Ac 10:47
"Can any man forbid the water, that these
who have received the Holy Spirit as well as
we should not be baptized?" (World English Bible)

First realize "that these who have already received the Holy Spirit as well as we." This translation makes it very clear. They had already received the Holy Spirit. They were already saved. Can any man forbid water? It was a rhetorical question? The obvious answer was no. But in reality there probably were some that could prevent baptism and did: relatives, those that would persecute, sickness, etc. Not everyone who is saved is baptized. The thief on the cross was not baptized, yet he would have been among those who "have already received the Holy Spirit as we." That is when salvation takes place. Baptism is simply a step of obedience in the Christian faith that takes place after salvation.
DHK

MEE · Dec 7, 2002

Originally posted by DHK:
Ac 10:47
"Can any man forbid the water, that these
who have received the Holy Spirit as well as
we should not be baptized?" (World English Bible)

First realize "that these who have already received the Holy Spirit as well as we." This translation makes it very clear. They had already received the Holy Spirit. They were already saved. Can any man forbid water? It was a rhetorical question? The obvious answer was no. But in reality there probably were some that could prevent baptism and did: relatives, those that would persecute, sickness, etc. Not everyone who is saved is baptized. The thief on the cross was not baptized, yet he would have been among those who "have already received the Holy Spirit as we." That is when salvation takes place. Baptism is simply a step of obedience in the Christian faith that takes place after salvation.
DHK

Rhetorical question or not, Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Acts 10:48 - KJV! Baptism is part of salvation!

Maybe not to the Baptist Church that you are affiliated with, but it is according to the Bible.

This is getting old. I'll leave this to you and others to dispute.

MEE

Lorelei · Dec 7, 2002

Originally posted by MEE:
**I never said that the Spirt has no effect on anyone.

But you have not told me what effect it does have. You have not answered the question because you can't. If you answer this question, it proves your whole theology wrong! By really focusing on the scriptures I gave you you have to say the Spirit is what gives us life. You have to admit there is scriptural evidence of people having the Spirit before baptism and according to you, Peter said you had to be baptized to get the Spirit. How can this be? No you haven't said it has no effect but you haven't touched any of what the Bible really has to say. You all stand by Acts 2:38 to the extreme UNTIL order is an issue. Peter said repent and be baptized every one of you for the remission of sins and you will receive the Holy Ghost. If this is how it is, then how did Cornelius get the Spirit? If this means baptism is necessary to save, it also means that baptism is necessary to get the Spirit. Cornelius got the Spirit first, so did Peter lie in Acts 2 or did he lie in Acts 10? See, it doesn't work your way.

Originally posted by MEE:
**
**As I said before, "I have not been programmed!" The Bible says that you have to repent, be baptized, and receive the Holy Ghost. Lorelei, I didn't write the Book. Why do you want to dismiss water baptism and hold to repentance and being Spirit filled?

The Bible doesn't say it, you do. I don't dismiss baptism, as I have clearly shown you with all the scripture that you have ignored, the Spirit gives life. It does it whether or not one has been baptized. Why do you want to dismiss that?

Originally posted by MEE:
****No the verses don't lie. You are taking scriptures that are talking about the Spirit and neglecting the ones on water baptism because you have been taught that you don't have to be baptized.

I am not neglecting the ones about baptism, but I am showing you ones that contradict baptism. Can these verses contradict each other?

I am not neglecting any verse of the Bible. I have been willing, and I have discussed all these verses in context. You don't even touch these verses. You act is if they don't exist. They do, and they contradict your belief, like it or not.

Originally posted by MEE:
I haven't read that anyone can "forbid water baptism" according to the Bible.

Who is forbidding water here? Have any one of us forbidden anyone to be baptized? Are you purposely misrepresenting what we have said or are you serious? Saying it isn't necessary for salvation but something we do out of obedience is not forbidding anything.

Originally posted by MEE:
**Let me refresh your memory! Acts 10:47) Can any man FORBID WATER, that these should not be BAPTIZED, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Let me refresh your memory. Those people had the Holy Ghost just like me. When they received that Holy Ghost they were sealed as children of God until the day of redemption. Thier Spirit is now alive. The water didn't do a thing.

Originally posted by MEE:
**I really don't know why I even bother to respond. The only thing, for me, that has come out of reading on the BB is that I have learned what you all believe. I'll have to say, "It's been interesting!"

Yeah, leaving is the safe thing to do. Otherwise you might have to actually read past the book of Acts and find the truth.

~Lorelei

DHK · Dec 7, 2002

Originally posted by MEE:

Rhetorical question or not, Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Acts 10:48 - KJV! Baptism is part of salvation!

Maybe not to the Baptist Church that you are affiliated with, but it is according to the Bible.

This is getting old. I'll leave this to you and others to dispute.

Click to expand...

Ac 10:47
"Can any man forbid the water, that these
who have received the Holy Spirit as well as
we should not be baptized?" (World English Bible)

You are missing the whole point of this post and this thread. These believers are identified as who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we had not yet been baptized. Yet they had received the Holy Spirit. Can unsaved people be indwelt with the Holy Spirit? NO! But these people were! Why? Because they had already been saved. Look at the tense of the verb here. "Who have received," meaning they already received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. Baptism had nothing to do with their salvation. It came afterward.

"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom.8:9)
DHK

[ December 07, 2002, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

Lorelei · Dec 9, 2002

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Lorelei, could you please elaborate on what you mean by "Die in baptism"?

If I am understanding you correctly we do not die at baptism.

I was going off this statement that you made:

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Repentance does not come when one is baptized. Repentance is a seperate experience than baptism. We do Die at repentance. We are then buried with him at baptism. Two seperate experiences.

God bless

The Spirit is what gives us life. If Christ is in us our Spirit is alive according to Romans 8:9. Maybe I should have said buried at baptism, either way, why would you want to be buried when your Spirit has already been made alive?

Also, doesn't your church teach that baptism is where the 'blood is applied'? If so, how can the Spirit enter a man if the blood has not yet been applied to cover his sin?

~Lorelei

(I am still hoping Oneness will also try to answer the question.)

ONENESS · Dec 11, 2002

Originally posted by Lorelei:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
Lorelei, could you please elaborate on what you mean by "Die in baptism"?

If I am understanding you correctly we do not die at baptism.

I was going off this statement that you made:

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Repentance does not come when one is baptized. Repentance is a seperate experience than baptism. We do Die at repentance. We are then buried with him at baptism. Two seperate experiences.

God bless

Click to expand...

The Spirit is what gives us life. If Christ is in us our Spirit is alive according to Romans 8:9. Maybe I should have said buried at baptism, either way, why would you want to be buried when your Spirit has already been made alive?

Also, doesn't your church teach that baptism is where the 'blood is applied'? If so, how can the Spirit enter a man if the blood has not yet been applied to cover his sin?

~Lorelei

(I am still hoping Oneness will also try to answer the question.)[/QUOTE]Lorelei, sorry for the wait, but I like to think on things and ask questions before I come to conclusions.

The bible says in 2Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

So lets rightly divide the Word.

Eph 1:13 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The bible just let us know that After ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise.

So your question/statement was: If you consider baptism a part of salvation than these guys in Acts 10 were already sealed. So whats the use of Baptism?

So my answer/statment is this: God set things in order. That order is the way we are to do things. God said that we must be born of the Water and the Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God.

Yes God did baptize the gentiles with the Holy Spirit prior to them being baptized in Jesus Name. But as soon as the Gentiles received the Holy Ghost Peter Commanded them to be baptized in the Name of the Lord.

If God chooses to give someone his spirit before someone as been baptized who are we to disagree.

But if we are rightly dividing the word we will know what we are suppose to do when we read scripture that may seem to be in contridiction with other scripture.

Here is another simple question to ask your self.
The bible never said that the Gentiles repented before they received the Holy Ghost either. But do we need to repent in order to be saved?

Its all about taking the bible as a whole. I could give you several more reasons why "I" think the gentiles received the Holy Ghost before being baptized but what "I" think really holds no water.

So again my answer is that even though they received the Holy Ghost they were still commanded to be baptized in the Name of the Lord. It was not an issue for Peter to know if Baptism was part of salvation. Peter knew what God had told them to preach and what it would take for a soul to be saved, So Peter Preached the same thing to the Gentiles as he did to the Jews. The fact remains that they were still commanded to be baptized in the Name of the Lord.

Maybe I should have said buried at baptism, either way, why would you want to be buried when your Spirit has already been made alive?

We would still want to be buried b/c we must obey the Gospel.

II TIM 3:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

So I ask you the question what is the point of being dead with him if the Spirit has made us alive?

We need to look at the bible as a whole to see what scripture is trying to reveal. Sure some verses look good stuck on a Bill Board all by them selves and they even make since all by them selves. But when we put the WHOLE messege to it we can know what we must do.

God bless

ONENESS · Dec 11, 2002

Let me also point out what Titus 3:5 says.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Just b/c he have received the Holy Ghost does not really mean anything. The bible tells the Holy Ghost needs to be renewed.

Lorelei · Dec 11, 2002

Oneness,

Rightly dividing the Word of Truth is not picking what scriptures you are going to believe and which ones you are not. Rightly dividing the Word of Truth will always come to a conclusion that shows all of scripture in unison.

The Bible states quite clearly that the Spirit is what gives us life. To say that it doesn't really mean anything is heretical.

Being buried after we have been given life is not obeying the gospel. No where in scripture are we told that we must be die to sin, be raised to life and then die again. We die to sin and are given life when the Spirit indwells us. To ignore that is ignoring the Word of God. It is dividing it, but hardly is it rightly doing so. You are right, what you say really holds no water at all.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Just b/c he have received the Holy Ghost does not really mean anything. The bible tells the Holy Ghost needs to be renewed.

The Holy Ghost doesn't really mean anything? Did you not read ANY of the verses I quoted? The Spirit IS what gives us life. It SEALS us as a child of God until the day of redemption. It doesn't really mean anything?

That my friend is your problem. You are so busy trying to prove yourself right that you are ignoring the ONE thing that is important. The life we receive in the Spirit is REALLY important!

~Lorelei

ONENESS · Dec 11, 2002

Originally posted by Lorelei:
Oneness,

Rightly dividing the Word of Truth is not picking what scriptures you are going to believe and which ones you are not. Rightly dividing the Word of Truth will always come to a conclusion that shows all of scripture in unison.

The Bible states quite clearly that the Spirit is what gives us life. To say that it doesn't really mean anything is heretical.

Being buried after we have been given life is not obeying the gospel. No where in scripture are we told that we must be die to sin, be raised to life and then die again. We die to sin and are given life when the Spirit indwells us. To ignore that is ignoring the Word of God. It is dividing it, but hardly is it rightly doing so. You are right, what you say really holds no water at all.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
Just b/c he have received the Holy Ghost does not really mean anything. The bible tells the Holy Ghost needs to be renewed.

The Holy Ghost doesn't really mean anything? Did you not read ANY of the verses I quoted? The Spirit IS what gives us life. It SEALS us as a child of God until the day of redemption. It doesn't really mean anything?

That my friend is your problem. You are so busy trying to prove yourself right that you are ignoring the ONE thing that is important. The life we receive in the Spirit is REALLY important!

~Lorelei[/QUOTE]Lorelei I’m not going to sit here and argue with you. Its pointless to do so. Lorelei, you are totally twisting what I am meaning.

Of course the Holy Ghost means something DUHH. But just to have the Holy Ghost for a moment is not enough. The bible says that he saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

Which verses do I not believe? Just b/c you say I do not believe a verse does not make it so. Rightly dividing the word of truth will always come to a conclusion that shows [b[all[/b] of scripture in unison. But the doctrine of the Trinity and the doctrine of Easy believism is not found anywhere in scripture.

The Spirit is what Gives life who said that it did not. The Spirit is the only thing that gives life.

Being buried after we have been given life is not obeying the gospel. No where in scripture are we told that we must be die to sin, be raised to life and then die again. We die to sin and are given life when the Spirit indwells us. To ignore that is ignoring the Word of God. It is dividing it, but hardly is it rightly doing so. You are right, what you say really holds no water at all.

So why then are you baptized Lorelei? It just b/c you believe on Christ and you want to show everyone? I hate to burst your bubble, but baptism is for the Remission of Sins. If you don’t believe me at least believe Peter. He said it not me. (Acts 2:38)

Baptism is also a symbol but it is also much more than a symbol. He that believeth and is BAPTIZED shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be damned.

You cant get around it. You cant pick and choose what part of this verse you want to stay. It says if you believe not ye shall be damned. Believe not what? DUHHH What he just said. Believing means that you are obedient as well. Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So come on quit playing “Patty Cake” with Jesus read it for what it says, do it, be a Christian and Go to heaven.

God bless you Ma’am

I KNOW YOU MIGHT HAVE ALREADY OF READ THIS BUT I JUST NOTICED A TYPO. IT SHOULD READ GO TO HEAVEN INSTEAD OF GOD TO HEAVEN

THANKS

[ December 11, 2002, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

Frank · Dec 11, 2002

Oneness:
This seems to be a very controversial topic. The Holy Spirit uses an instrument to affect change in our lives. This is the word of God. Eph. 6:17. The word of God is the instrument of change. Hebrews 4:12. Men are changed when they obeyfrom the heart the form of doctrine delivered. Romans 6:17,18. It is through the word men are made clean. John 15:3, I Pet. 1:20-23. God chose the personage of the Holy Spirit to bring us the very words whereby we must be saved through our Lord Jesus Christ. Eph. 3:12. Therefore, the Holy Spirit in and of himself cannot save. However, when his instrument is used men are changed by his power of working through the word.

Lorelei · Dec 12, 2002

Originally posted by ONENESS:
I hate to burst your bubble, but baptism is for the Remission of Sins. If you don’t believe me at least believe Peter. He said it not me. (Acts 2:38)

Read the verse Oneness:

Acts 2:38

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
KJV

Why do you take the baptism for remission of sins so literally but ignore the fact that he said that if you do that then you will receive the Holy Ghost. Peter seems to be saying here that Baptism MUST Precede the Holy Ghost, but you don't believe that. So, if the entire verse must be taken literally (ignoring how the word for can and has been used to mean "because of"), then you must agree that the remission of sins comes before the Spirit can enter a man.

Peter said it, not me.

The whole "patty cake" thing reveals you own childishness. Is that really a fruit of the Spirit? Why is it that the Spirit so often will empower you to speak words you don't understand but he won't give you any kind and gentle ones to use when discussing Himself?

~Lorelei

DHK · Dec 14, 2002

Originally posted by DHK:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MEE:

Rhetorical question or not, Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Acts 10:48 - KJV! Baptism is part of salvation!

Maybe not to the Baptist Church that you are affiliated with, but it is according to the Bible.

This is getting old. I'll leave this to you and others to dispute.

Click to expand...

Ac 10:47
"Can any man forbid the water, that these
who have received the Holy Spirit as well as
we should not be baptized?" (World English Bible)

You are missing the whole point of this post and this thread. These believers are identified as who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we had not yet been baptized. Yet they had received the Holy Spirit. Can unsaved people be indwelt with the Holy Spirit? NO! But these people were! Why? Because they had already been saved. Look at the tense of the verb here. "Who have received," meaning they already received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. Baptism had nothing to do with their salvation. It came afterward.

"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom.8:9)
DHK

So why were they baptized if they had already been saved; if they had already received the Holy Spirit?

BobRyan · Dec 15, 2002

The Holy Spirit is God just as much as the Father or the Son. You can't be saved without Him.

It is He who writes the law of God upon the heart.

It is He who convicts of sin and righteousness and judgment.

It is He who causes us to be born again as Christ taught before the cross (John 3) and as He expected non-believing Jewish authorities to also understand from scripture.

The Holy Spirit is "essential" to the process of salvation. Anything else is a two-gospel approach to salvation.

In Christ,

Bob

Do we need to have the Holy Ghost to be saved?

MEE

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Lorelei

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MEE

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DHK

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ONENESS

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