Oral Tradition

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:


I direct you to your own posts. I am not the one slinging mud. Example: "The K in DHK wouldn't stand for..." Go back and read my recent posts. I referred you to four passages of Scriptures, asked four direct questions? You avoided them. Why? I asked you personally a direct question according to Scripture. You avoid it. Why? Why are you afraid of Scripture?
DHK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DHK, I invite you to pose your question again, in the most simple, staight forward, and non-accusatory way that you are able.

I shall happily answer it in the same spirit.

Ron

[ February 02, 2002: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:

Learn a little bit from your own Scott Hahn who himself said that the Catholic Church was full of baptized pagans.
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DHK, in that Mr. Hahn is not here to defend himself, I ask you to offer evidence that he, indeed said such a thing.

If this is nothing more than repeating gossip or rumor, it would be false witness and justice would demand a public retraction of your statement in light of the scandalous nature of your accusation.

So please, offer your proof.

post script:

Ok, I did a little checking myself. I was able to find something similar to what you have attributed to Mr. Hahn. It is contained in his conversion story: his conversion to Catholcism. It is what he believed before he began his study of the Church.

Were you aware of this not so fine distinction?

http://www.chnetwork.org/scotthconv.htm

[ February 02, 2002: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

[ February 02, 2002: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trying2understand:

DHK, I invite you to pose your question again, in the most simple, staight forward, and non-accusatory way that you are able.
I shall happily answer it in the same spirit.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Question #1 Please explain the first two commandments (Protestant edition), Exodus 20:1-4, in the light of Catholics bowing down to graven images (i.e. the crucifix in the churches, the stations of the cross, various saints, etc.).

Question #2 Please explain why, in Esther 3:1-5, Mordecai refuses to bow to Haman, a high ranking prince at the palace of the king. All else bowed down to show Haman reverence or respect; why didn’t Haman?

Question #3 Please explain why, in Acts 10:25,26, Peter rebukes Cornelius for bowing down in front of him, telling him to rise up, for he also is a man.

Question #4 Please explain why, in Rev.22:8,9, the angel rebukes John, warning him not to bow down before him. “See thou do it not!” he exclaims.

Question #5 A personal question to you, but not intended to be offensive. Does God’s Holy Spirit bear witness with your spirit that you are a child of God? Yes or No? If yes, How?
RE: Scott Hahn. The quote was taken right from here on Baptist Board. If my memory serves me correctly it was first made by Catholic Convert, and then questioned by Pauline. It was made a few months ago, and no it was not in reference to a time before his conversion to Catholicism.
DHK

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:


Question #1 Please explain the first two commandments (Protestant edition), Exodus 20:1-4, in the light of Catholics bowing down to graven images (i.e. the crucifix in the churches, the stations of the cross, various saints, etc.)
DHK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exodus 20:1-4
"And God spake all these words, saying, I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

This is most easily answered by referring you to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

2112. "The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of 'idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see.' These empty idols make their worshippers empty: 'Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them. God, however, is the 'living God' who gives life and intervenes in history."

2113. "Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, 'You cannot serve God and mammon. Many martyrs died for not adoring 'the Beast' refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God."

2114. "Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who 'transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God.'"

In short, idolatry is belief in or the worship of other than the one true God. As it relates to the crucifix,statues, et al. (and I know that you have heard this before) Catholic do not worship or bow down to the objects. We worship and bow down to the one true God. The objects serve merely to bring God to our mind.

 

Ron,
Thank you for a good post. Just carrying a rosary with me lifts my mind to Jesus Christ, who is our Way, Truth and Life. It brings me to consider how I might better take up my cross and follow Him.

When I dip my fingers in the holy water before mass it reminds me of my promises to Almighty God that I have forsaken sin and all the works of the devil in order to live for and serve my Triune God.

A medal around my neck tells me that I belong totally to God, that I am not my own, that with a price I have been bought. And what a price it was!

Looking at a Catholic religious statue always brings home the spiritual message in that statue. If it is of a saint, there is some way in which that saint particularly lived a Christlike life. And I am reminded to be like that saint in becoming more Christlike.

A statue of the Sacred Heart reminds me of Jesus Christ's great love for me who am so undeserving of it. A statue of Blessed Mother reminds me how God used her in His Plan of Salvation. And, that we are imitate her in always being submissive to His will.
And also that we are always to encourage people to do whatever Jesus tells them to do. Also, we are to call her blessed through all generations.

And a crucifix is evidence to me that I am called to be crucified with Jesus Christ so that it is no longer I who live this human life but Jesus Christ who lives through me. I am still very far from this goal but, thanks be to God, He has brought me far from where I used to be.

Pauline

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:

Question #2 Please explain why, in Esther 3:1-5, Mordecai refuses to bow to Haman, a high ranking prince at the palace of the king. All else bowed down to show Haman reverence or respect; why didn’t Haman?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mordecai refused to bow to Haman in order not to render to man the homage which belongs to God alone. Now why would bowing to Haman be making such homage? Because Haman was entitled "father of the king", which was a claim to diety.

[ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:



Question #3 Please explain why, in Acts 10:25,26, Peter rebukes Cornelius for bowing down in front of him, telling him to rise up, for he also is a man.

Question #4 Please explain why, in Rev.22:8,9, the angel rebukes John, warning him not to bow down before him. “See thou do it not!” he exclaims.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Acts 10:25-26
"And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man."

Been there, answered that one before. Cornelius "worshipped" Peter.

I nor any Catholic that I know worships any man, not even the Pope.

Revelation 22:8-9
"And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God."

Ditto. Been there, answered that one too.

John fell to "worship" the angel. Sorry, DHK, I respect and honor, but do not worship, angels and saints.

You don't recall reading my answers to these questions the last time around?

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:


Question #5 A personal question to you, but not intended to be offensive. Does God’s Holy Spirit bear witness with your spirit that you are a child of God? Yes or No? If yes, How?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A little hardball, huh?

Yes, I believe that the Holy Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God.

I proclaim my acceptance of the truths of the One True God. I proclaim His Gospel to others, to the best of my fallen and sinful human nature, through word and deed.

I will admit to occasionally falling short in interacting with you. I think that it is in part due to the limiting nature of the medium, and a strong love for the truth. (Yes, as I see it.)

In real life, I interact closely and lovingly with Baptists. I have attended a Bible study group at the local Baptist church on and off for about two years. I am good friends with the pastor and youth pastor. In fact, the youth group used our home for their meetings for about a year when there was no where else for them to meet. I even took the middle school group on a long weekend sailing trip. These things were all done in love.

[ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:


RE: Scott Hahn. The quote was taken right from here on Baptist Board. If my memory serves me correctly it was first made by Catholic Convert, and then questioned by Pauline. It was made a few months ago, and no it was not in reference to a time before his conversion to Catholicism.
DHK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, my question for you:

In that you do not know first hand or by reliable testimony the veracity of the statement, why would you utter it with such authority and without the necessary disclaimers?

Is repeating something which you do not actually know to be true, especially when it is of a scandalous nature, in keeping with either the spirit or the letter of the law "Thou shalt not bear false witness"?

I do know for a fact that the remarks were made by Mr Hahn in his youth well before he began his study of the Church. If you would like, I could offer you a link to his conversion story so that you may avail yourself of the truth of the matter.

[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

Ps,
I certainly believe the Holy Spirit bears witness to me too that I am a child of God. Jesus Christ lives in me, works in me making me more and more like Himself.

Pauline

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ps104_33:


I thought only Baptists believed in assurance of salvation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Psalm, perhaps "child of God" means "assurance of salvation" in your vocabulary. But it does not in mine.

I would hope that by this point you would understand that Catholics do not believe in an "assurance of salvation" as you do.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trying2understand: to DHK


Now, my question for you:

Is repeating something which you do not actually know to be true, especially when it is of a scandalous nature, in keeping with either the spirit or the letter of the law "Thou shalt not bear false witness"?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DHK, I am very disappointed.

I answered all of your questions in an honest and thought filled manner.

Why do you not answer my one question to you?

Ron

[ February 06, 2002: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trying2understand:

Now, my question for you:
Is repeating something which you do not actually know to be true, especially when it is of a scandalous nature, in keeping with either the spirit or the letter of the law "Thou shalt not bear false witness"?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will reply to some of your other posts shortly. But since you seem to want an immediate reply to this one I will oblige. First of all, I have no reason to believe that what I have quoted is untrue. The statement was tossed around on this board by your own Catholic apologists. It was talked about and discussed as if it were common knowledge. I can remember the discussion clearly. If your own Catholic apologists believe that to be true, then why shouldn't I accept it? Are you afraid the statement is true?

Am I bearing false witness? No I do not believe I am. I speak the truth in as much as I know the truth. This is what I heard to be true from your own spokespeople. Why should I go out of my way to deny it??
DHK

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:


I will reply to some of your other posts shortly. But since you seem to want an immediate reply to this one I will oblige. First of all, I have no reason to believe that what I have quoted is untrue. The statement was tossed around on this board by your own Catholic apologists. It was talked about and discussed as if it were common knowledge. I can remember the discussion clearly. If your own Catholic apologists believe that to be true, then why shouldn't I accept it? Are you afraid the statement is true?

Am I bearing false witness? No I do not believe I am. I speak the truth in as much as I know the truth. This is what I heard to be true from your own spokespeople. Why should I go out of my way to deny it??
DHK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My question:

Is repeating something which you do not actually know to be true, especially when it is of a scandalous nature, in keeping with either the spirit or the letter of the law "Thou shalt not bear false witness"?

Your answer (boiled down from above):

"I speak the truth in as much as I know the truth."

So from this I take, you do not believe that repeating scandalous rumor, without actual knowledge, is false witness.

As long as you heard it, you are free to repeat it?


Is this how Baptists generally regard truth?

[ February 06, 2002: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

Ps,
Documented history shows that a man started the Baptist church. And Jesus Christ started the Catholic Church. So who's doctrine is man-made?
Pauline