Comparative analysis: Matthew 24, 25 & 1 Thessalonians 4

Ed,

Quote:
________________________________________________
"Ed,

Quote:
"No Signs precede the Rapture"
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
______________________________________

The Rapture IS described (in part) in Matt.24:31
and you omitted the Sign that immediately follows the first part of the Rapture.

"They will see Him coming" after Jesus has already "raptured the Elect from earth to heaven". So the Angels will then gather them out of the heavens while the tribes of earth mourn and beg to escape His wrath on one of the days "after the Tribulation". Mark 13:24-27;
Luke 21:36.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Ed,

Quote:
_______________________________________________
"It is your claim, Brother Mel Miller that contradicts coming as a thief which is ... that
every eye will see Him coming as He sends the
angels to complete the Rapture of the Elect.
Sorry, in my part of the country when a thief comes to your house, he steals stuff and YOU DON'T KNOW IT HAPPENED until next moring"
______________________________________________

You have overlooked the fact that Paul says
that Day "will not overtake us as a thief".
Jesus says He is coming "as a thief" and we
should watch when the armies are gathered to
Armageddon. You have the wrong people being
surprised at Christ's coming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Ed,

YOUR QUOTE; YOUR WORDS:
______________________________________________
"The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)
_______________________________________________

You have verified what Jesus taught, I.E., that
He will "raise up every believer on the last day
and gather the elect from earth to heaven and
THEN the angels will gather us out of the four
winds unto Jesus". John 6:38-40; Mark 13:27;
Matt.24:31. AND THE SIGN OF THIS COMING TO
RAPTURE US IS HIS SUDDEN APPEARANCE IN THE
CLOUDS OF HEAVEN IN POWER AND GREAT GLORY!!!!!

Case closed. No win for your Pre-Trib theory.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Hay, If I'm still here when the AC arrives, I'll walk up in his face and and say "BOO", and the whole world will watch him "FLEE" from me.

1Jo 4:4 because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Jas 4:7 Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

So long as the "one who is greater" is still here, the AC can't prevail over the "Saints". (Church)


Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

 

Ed,

Quote:
_______________________________________________
7. In Clouds Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:17

"The post-tribulation Second Coming Event is WITH THE CLOUDS; the pretribulation rapture
/resurrection event is in the clouds".
_______________________________________________

Your statement distorts the words of Jesus who placed the "gathering of the Elect from the earth and from the extremities of the heavens" in Mark 13:27 and Matt.24:31 when He appears in the clouds in power and great glory on one of the days AFTER the great tribulation".

It is the same kind of illogic which you have
exercised by recently claiming that Christ's use
of the word "after" actually means "before"!!!

I have never once heard or read of a scholar
who claims Matt.24:31 refers to a so-called
Pre-Trib Rapture seven years before Christ
appears "UPON the clouds in power and great
glory". Your theory contradicts what Christ clearly taught!

In fact the Greek of Matt.24:30 does NOT say
He is coming "WITH the clouds". He is coming
"UPON (epi) the clouds" and the Elect will
meet Him "IN the clouds".

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Knowing "WHY" things happen is paramount to understanding "WHAT" is happening, you'll find the explanation at the following link.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3398.html#000000

 

Me4Him,

Quote:
______________________________________________
"Knowing "WHY" things happen is paramount to understanding "WHAT" is happening, you'll find the explanation at the following link".
______________________________________________

Your charts mean absolutely nothing to me.
They contradict the order of events presented
in the Book of Revelation where no one will
be raised from the dead or even stand before
God and the Lamb in heaven until the last martyr
has been killed. Rev.6:9-11.

On the last day, with the last martyr having
arrived in heaven, including the two prophets, the Temple will be open for the final drama in heaven. Rev.7:9-17; Rev.8:1-5; Rev.11:15-19;
Rev.19:1-10. 100 Verses will be fulfilled on
that day. See Centerpiece at www.lastday.net.

You assume believers will "know the exact day"
of the second coming. That is a blatant
contradiction of Jesus that "no one knows the
day" in advance. Only the Father knows when
the last martyr will be killed.

Yes, knowing WHY 100 verses will be fulfilled
on the Day Christ comes in glory does help us understand the order of WHAT happens.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Mel Miller: //I have never once heard or read of a scholar
who claims Matt.24:31 refers to a so-called
Pre-Trib Rapture seven years before Christ
appears "UPON the clouds in power and great
glory".//

tee hee. That proves that I didn't get it from ANY HUMAN.
I got it straight from the Holy Spirit.

Mel Miller: //In fact the Greek of Matt.24:30 does NOT say
He is coming "WITH the clouds". He is coming
"UPON (epi) the clouds" and the Elect will
meet Him "IN the clouds".//

My mistake, 'with clouds' is found in the Glorious Second Coming
as is denoted at:

Rev 1:7 (KJV1611 Edition):
Behold he commeth with clouds, and euery eye shal see him, and they also
which pearced him: and all kinreds of the earth shall waile because
of him: euen so. Amen.

 

Mel Miller: //You have built a theory without substance.//

Tee Hee. Logic as with a 4-year-old person. You can't kill thousands of
Biblical facts with one negative statement.

Mel Miller: //What evidence have you given to show that the
"Day" for the Rapture and Second Coming is a
"seven-year-day" as you claim?//

Daniel 9:27 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/):
He will make a firm covenant*
with many for one week,
but in the middle of the week
he will put a stop to sacrifice and ofering
ANd the abomination of Desolation
will be on a wing of the temple**
until the decreed destruction
is poured out on the desolator.***

Translator notes:
* - or, will 'enforce a covenant'
** - LXX; MT reads 'of abominations'
*** or, 'and the desolator will be one the wing
of abominations or 'And the desolator will come
on the wings of monstors' (or of horor), Hb sbscure

This speaks of the 'Abomination of Desolation' (AOD) that Jesus spake
of in Matthew 24.

Alright, we have a beginning of the 7-year-day renewal
of a covenant (or enforcement); A mid-week AOD which results
in great horor being unleashed terminating at the end of the
week.

He small 'h' here on 'he' may not be noticed by most users
of the KJV. The more modern versions (last 10 years or so)
capatilize pronouns which refer to one one the members of
the HOly Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, or God the
Holy Spirit. In Daniel 9:26 is mentioned both the Messiah (Jesus)
and the anti-messiah (obviously a Roman, 'people of the coming
prince'). The capital 'H' 'he' at the beginning is the capital
of a sentence. The small 'h' in the next 'he' shows that these
translators believe that the second of the two princes
is referred to: the prince of the people who destroyed Jerusalem
in 70AD (at the end of the first 69 weeks).

I said before: //we have a beginning of the 7-year-day renewal
of a covenant (or enforcement); A mid-week AOD which results
in great horor being unleashed terminating at the end of the
week.//

Shown in Daniel 9:27 is:

1. The pretribulation rapture/resurrection that
initiates the era of the Antichrist (Tribulation Period)
/see 'falling away' in 2 Thessalonians 2:3/
at the start of the 7-year-day.

2. THe mid-tribulation period crisis, when the Antichrist enteres
the 3rd temple to declare himself to be God, in the middle
of the week (7-year-day).

3. The last half of the Tribulation period, the Great Tribulation
period, which is ended by the Return of Jesus in Power and Glory
to destroy the works of the Antichrist and the antichrist.

Note that from one timing sequence I denote three points
in 'my theory' of Biblical statements. The timeline of Daniel 9:27
matches the events of the Tribualtion Period as I've noted above.

Note to the reader. My debate opponents will chant "taint so"
but fail to debate thousands of my points. My debate opponents
will say (elsewhere) that I'm mad from to much study.
Yet these are the same people who say that we Baptists are
to 'study to show ourselves approved unto God'.
Sorry, such opponents are way to much like the Liberal Thought
Police POLITICALLY CORRECT (PC) folk:
it is good to continually search for the truth;
but anybody who finds it (especially if it is 'JEsus')
are damned to 'PC Hell'.


npetreley: //I don't know if anyone else reads walls
of text like this, but I don't.//

I know your PC line. You can't refute 10% of my thousands of
pointsthis easy, you have to go in point by point
countering my scripute with your scriputre.
Sorry, your statement shows your attempt to
gracefully loose the debate. I'll let you, needless to say

Matthew 24:14 (HCSB):
This good news of the kingdom will be
proclaimed in all the world* as a testimony to all nations. ...

*Translator footnote: "or, 'in all the inhabited earth'

What is this a sign of?
1. The destruction of the Temple
2. The Second Coming of Jesus
3. The End of the Age (KJV: 'world')

I'm on record saying that these signs in Matthew 24:4-14
are signs that the Church Age (Time of the Gentiles) continues.
What do you, gentle reader/debater, think this is a sign of?

 

Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it!
Those charts are fantastic and show
you have been granted exception insight
into Biblical Eschatology!

 

Mel Miller: //... no one will
be raised from the dead or even stand before
God and the Lamb in heaven until the last martyr
has been killed. Rev.6:9-11.//

How does Revelation 6:9-11 show that?
Revelation 7 is a scene in heaven before
Revelation 6 takes place.

In fact, the scene in Revelation 7 is of all
the unnumberable saints of all the ages who
were raptured/resurrected,
at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.

Note also that the earthquake of Revelation 6
anmd of Revealtion16 are several magnitures
apart indicating two different earthquakes.

 

If I understand the dispy view correctly, I Thess 4:13-17 pictures the pre-trib rapture.

If I also understand correctly, the dispy view is that the "day of the Lord" is a post-trib event.

Paul refers to the "day of the Lord is Chapter 5, verse 2--just three verses after writing of being "caught up." Since Paul does not differentiate between 4:17 and 5:2, it seems one can make the case for those verses describing a single event. If they are two separate events, why did Paul not clearly say so?

Just curious.

 

First, if you do an OT/NT study on the day of the Lord, you'll find that it is identified by very clear signs. The sun goes dark, the moon turns crimson, etc. Given that we can easily correlate the day of the Lord with these signs, the chronology, or order of events couldn't be more clearly stated than in Matthew 24.

First, there's the great tribulation, which will be shortened for the sake of the elect (shortened by how much? He doesn't say, which is why we will not know the day or hour of His coming).

So when does the Day of the Lord occur? Here you go:

This is the sign of His coming, and the announcement of the wrath that is about to be poured out on the earth.

Here's the connection with wrath from Revelation:

Here is the rapture, which occurs as Jesus returns:

Here are the raptured saints in heaven, from Revelation:

As if to confirm this chronology down to the letter, look at the response of the elder in Revelation:

That's why paul doesn't say they're two separate events.

MOST IMPORTANT: The above is not only chronologically consistent, it harmonizes with one of the most important principles concerning the rapture. We are told we will experience tribulation, but that we are not appointed to wrath. Note that we are here for the great tribulation, but we are raptured just before God pours His wrath out on the world.

 

Non-wall-of-text reader's digest version: A very simple comparison of Matthew 24 with Revelation 6, 7 shows:

1. Great tribulation
2. Sun goes dark, moon turns to color of blood
3. Jesus returns in glory while sending His angels to collect His elect in the rapture
4. People on earth (who are not raptured) recognize that this is the day of His wrath (from which we are spared)
5. Multitude raptured appears in heaven because they have been taken out of the great tribulation

 

Ed Edwards,

I repeat the question which you did not answer:

//What evidence have you given to show that the
"Day" for the Rapture and Second Coming is a
"seven-year-day" as you claim?//

Here is you attempted answer:
________________________________________________
"Alright, we have a beginning of the 7-year-day renewal of a covenant (or enforcement); A mid-week AOD which results in great horor being unleashed terminating at the end of the
week".
________________________________________________

Equating a "7-year-day" with a single solar Day
is self-contradictory. Seven years is 2520 days
and the Endtime events cover more than 1260 days.
Again, how in the world do you get a single 12
hour day out of 7 years??????????????????????

I find 100 verse in Revelation will be fulfilled
within six hours on the Day of Wrath that Jesus
(and Seal Six) say will begin with the signs in
the sun, moon and stars. "The sun will turn dark
at noon and the light will return at twilight
on the Day of the Lord when He comes with all
the Saints and becomes king of the whole earth". Amos 8:9; Zech.14:5-9.

And you try to flim-flam everybody with your
"7-Year-Day" Hypothesis to prop up your Pre-
trib Rapture theory as occuring on the SAME
DAY as the coming of Christ in power and great
glory with all the Saints. I Thess.3:13; Matt.
24:30-31.

You do this by saying the Holy Spirit revealed to you, and to "no one else" that Matt.24:30 is the coming of Christ at the end of the 7-Year-Day
and Matt.24:31 is His Pre-trib coming to Rapture
the Saints"!

The following egotistical claim of having your own private knowledge of the Holy Spirit's teaching is pure hodge-podge. Your claim:

Quote from above:
"tee hee. That proves that I didn't get it from ANY HUMAN. I got it straight from the Holy Spirit".

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Ed Edwards,

Interesting how your preconceived hypothesis
sees the resurrecting and presence of all believers in heaven as early as Rev.7:

Quote from you above:
_____________________________________________
"In fact, the scene in Revelation 7 is of all
the unnumberable saints of all the ages who
were raptured/resurrected, at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection".
________________________________________________

The Martrys will not be "avenged by God until
the last one has been killed". Rev.6:9-11.

They are still seen retrospectively in Rev.20:4
as "souls sitting on thrones to judge" the wicked
during the Tribunal of Seal Seven in Rev.8:1-5.

They do not take part in the "first resurrection"
(which you hpothetically place 7 years before the
second coming) until Christ comes "with all those who have died in the Lord" when He takes
"vengeance" on the armies gathered to
Armageddon at THE END of the great tribulation.

You are so determined to make the "gathering" of
Matt.24:31 refer to a so-called Pre-Trib event that you must claim the "7 Year-Day" is the
day Christ resurrects all the Saints who are found in heaven in Rev.7 ... years before He comes to avenge their blood.

There is absolutely no continuity in your theory
of what happens on the Day Christ comes in glory
and great power "with ALL the Saints". I Thess.
3:13; Zech.14:5-9; Rev.17:14.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

npetreley,

I agree with your Post-Trib view of the Rapture.

But you are taking sides with Ed Edwards in
thinking the rapture has already occurred as
of Rev.7:
Quotes:
_______________________________________________
"Here are the raptured saints in heaven, from Revelation 7:

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
------------------------------------------------
As if to confirm this chronology down to the letter, look at the response of the elder in Revelation 7:

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, `Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from'?
14 And I said to him, `Sir, you know.'
So he said to me, `These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation'".
______________________________________________

These verses are among 100 verses in Revelation
describing events occurring on the Day Christ
comes in glory. The resurrection/rapture occurs
at Rev.19 after the Tribunal of Seal 7 and the
Triumphal Coronation of Christ at the first of
three sound of the Last Trump ... the 7th Trumpet.

It is not until the 7th Trumpet sounds the first time that God's wrath "has come". The Day of Wrath "has come" as of Seal Six; but the Hour of Wrath and the "Hour of Trial" upon all mankind occurs after the 7th Trumpet sounds this first time and all the saints in heaven rejoice and learn that the Lamb's wedding also "has come".

The Day of Wrath, God's Wrath and time for the Lamb's wedding are just 3 of 7 things that "has come" before Christ descends to gather the Saints from earth and sends the angels to complete the gathering to Himself.

There can be no wedding until all the Saints
are "caught up to meet the Lord" at the second
sound of the 7th Trumpet, the Last Trump. In
face it takes the third sounding, at Matt.24:31,
to send the angels to gather us all unto Jesus, including the souls of the martyrs from heaven.

Even in Rev.15, the Martyrs sing their song before entering the Temple in heaven and have not yet been resurrected from the dead! THEY
CANNOT EVEN ENTER THE TEMPLE IN HEAVEN in Rev.7 and Rev.8:1-5 until the last (7th) Plague empties in the air!!!! The Temple will be filled
with the "smoke of God's glory and power" during
the first six plagues. Rev.15:8.

The 7th Plague will empty and then the Day of
God's wrath begins in Seal Six. The Order of
events requires armies gathered to Armageddon,
and the 7th Plague to empty in Rev.16:12-17 before Seal 6 opens for that Day in 6:12-17
which is ten chapters prior to Rev.16:12-17.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Since the Jews were promised a "resurrection", but never a "rapture", why do you find it so hard to believe there is a difference between them, In the OT, the Saints never had a "comforter", in the NT, they do.

This "Comforter" being present is what make that difference, being greater than Satan, he is the "Restrainer" who must be "taken out of the way" before Satan can have "power" over the trib Saints, which is the "Chastisement" of Israel for rejecting Jesus. (God)

This "Comforter" is the "voice of Jesus", which the Jews refuse to "Hear/obey", and the means by which Jesus said he would be "with us always", so when the "Comforter" is taken out of the way, the church goes with it, the rapture, and since Israel doesn't have a "comforter", they remain behind for the chastisement of God using the AC as a "ROD" to "beat them" and leave "STRIPES' in their flesh. (torturing/crucifying/muderering the "FLESH")

You said:
no one will be raised from the dead or even stand before God and the Lamb in heaven until the last martyr has been killed.

Rapture is spelled r.a.p.t.u.r.e.
Resurrection is spelled, R.e.s.s.u.r.e.c.t.i.o.n.

Different words spelled different ways, because they are different.

Rapture is to be caught up, taken out of the world.

Resurrection is to be "back in the world, alive",

The rapture "IS NOT" a resurrection, when they come out of the grave they go directly to heaven, they're not "back on the earth, alive", at that time, when they return with Jesus is the "FIRST RESURRECTION", because now they are
"Back on earth, alive".


Day of Christ, Jesus is the Bridegroom, coming only for his Bride, the church. (rapture)

Day of the Lord, Jesus returns as "lord of Lords" over to the whole earth, the First resurrection, not the second resurrection.

Different words have different meaning to differentiate between different events, and if you try to lump them all together as one events, you get where you're at, "".

Leadership by both "God/Law and prophets" and "Jesus/Holy Ghost" do not function at the same time, in the same time frame, this is why Israel is blinded until Jesus rapture the church, then the leadership of "God/Law and Prophets" (Two witnesses) will return during the trib.

Jesus as the "VINE" does not bears "FIGS", he withered up the fig tree (Israel) however God will make it bear "FIGS".

Joh 15:5 I am the vine,

Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain (Jesus) both yield salt water and fresh. ("WATER" (woman at well) at the same time)

I'd suggest you reread the whole link I posted, bits and pieces won't give you a complete view of the whole picture, if you think it's too long to read, think of all the "YEARS" you'll save by the labor of someone else.

If you're following the same "SPIRIT" I am, it will bear witness.

 

Chapter 4 describes the rapture, then Paul write this:

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

What is it Paul is about to describe that, ye have no need that I write unto you.


1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Why is there no need for Paul to write to the church about the coming day of the lord which he is about to describe???

First, the Church was just rapture in chapter 4, it's not here on earth.

Second, the events Paul now describes occurs during the trib period, when the AC makes a "peace treaty" with Israel, the whole world is at peace and believes the AC is the "savior" of the world, until he goes into the temple.


Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: (as being the MEssiah)

if another shall come in his own name, him (AC) ye will receive. (as being the MEssiah)

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (AC as being Messiah)

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; (peace treaty) then sudden destruction cometh upon them, (entering the temple, ABOD) as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


Paul has no need to write to the church about the events of the trib period, it doesn't apply to the church, the day of the lord, the church will be returning "WITH JESUS", not "looking for him".

 

Me4Him,

You make egotistical claims by affirming you, and
not I, follow the Spirit.

And this quote utterly distorts I Thess.4:13-17:
________________________________________________
Different words have different meaning to differentiate between different events, and if you try to lump them all together as one events, you get where you're at, "".
________________________________________________

Brother, your view that the resurrection and
rapture do not occur at the same time is a
total contradiction that "God will bring the
souls of those who die in the Lord with Jesus
and those who are alive and survive will be
caught up with them (the dead in Christ) to
meet the Lord in the air".

You separate the resurrection and rapture of all the Saints by claiming they are not part of the same event. Jesus promises to "raise up all and
every believer on the last day". John 6:38-40.

Paul had just written that we should be "worthy
of Christ at His Presence when He comes with
ALL the Saints". I Thess.3:13. He cannot come
with all the Saints if the bodies of martyred souls in heaven are not "resurrected" first; but yet are raised up at the same time as we who survive to the End are "caught up to meet them in the air". I Thess.4:13-17.

My friend, you base you "differentation" between the day for rapture and the day for resurrection on the false premise that "resurrection" refers
only to those who are ON THE EARTH!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
_______________________________________________
The rapture "IS NOT" a resurrection, when they come out of the grave they go directly to heaven, they're not "back on the earth, alive", at that time, when they return with Jesus is the "FIRST RESURRECTION", because now they are
"Back on earth, alive".
_______________________________________________

The resurrection/rapture occurs with both the
dead and living meeting Jesus before we come with Christ TO the earth! No believer will be left on earth during the Hour of God's wrath.
We all meet Him in the air during the Hour of
Trial which Jesus puts after He appears.
Luke 21:34-35.

There is absolutely no evidence that I Thess.
4:13-17 occurs before Christ comes with the
martyrs from heaven "in power and great glory and gathers the Elect from earth to heaven
AFTER the great tribulation". Mark 13:24-27.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net