Comparative analysis: Matthew 24, 25 & 1 Thessalonians 4

TWO SEPERATE EVENTS:

Tom Butler: //Paul refers to the "day of the Lord is Chapter 5,
verse 2--just three
verses after writing of being "caught up."
Since Paul does not differentiate between 4:17 and 5:2,
it seems one can make the case for those verses describing
a single event. If they are two separate events,
why did Paul not clearly say so?//

Paul clearly shows the two seperate sets of events TWICE:

Titus 2:13 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ )
while we wait for
(1) the blessed hope
and
(2) the appearing of the glory of our great
God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

(note also that in verse 12 Paul speaks of leading
a Godly life in THIS AGE. The 'blessed hope' ends
this current age, the Chruch Age, the Time of the Gentiles
- i.e. the pretribulation rapture/resurrection, the
'blessed hope')

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (HCSB):
Now concerning
(1) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and
(2) our being gathered to Him;
we ask you, brothers,

Note the variance in order of the mention of
the two different sets of events.
I've noted the 13 differences between the two events
earlier. Additionally, above, on the 'wall of truth'
earlier in this Topic, I answered one who said
the two events are two names for the same set of events,
I showed 4 similiarities of

the two SEPERATE SETS OF EVENTS:

1) the coming of our Lord
2) the blessed hope, our gathering

 

SIMILARITIES OF THE TWO SETS OF EVENTS:

Here are some similarities Jo#h noted up-topic (before):

1. Christ Himself Returns Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:16
2. From Heaven Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:16
3. With a Shout Matt. 24:30 (in power) I Thess. 4:16

11. Judgment Comes as Travail upon Expectant Mother Matt. 24:8 I Thess. 5:3
(at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection, the Tribualtion
Period Judgement comes to earth; at the Glorius Second Coming
of Christ in power and glory, Judgement comes to earth with Him)

 

TWO SEPERATE EARTHQUAKES:

quoted from Revelation 6 (copied, no version given???):

This event happens toward the beginning of the 7-year-day
called the Tribulation Period.
Do not confuse this earthquake with an earthquake
nearer the end of the Tribulation Period when the 7th bowl
is poured:

Revelation 16:20 (HCSB):
Every Island fled, and the mountains disappeared*

*Translator's note: Lit 'mountains were not found'

The 7th bowl earthquake (Chapter 16) is about 1,000 times as severe
as the earlier earthquake (Chaper 6):

earlier Chapt 6 earthquake: islands are moved over
later Chapt 16 earthquake: islands disappear

earlier Chapt 6 earthquake: mountains are moved over
later Chapt 16 earthquake: mountains disappear

 

Yes there is, Jesus said the gates of hell could "NEVER" prevail against the church, Satan must "FLEE" from church saint because of the present of the Holy ghost.

With the Holy Ghost rapture, Satan attacks and prevail against the saints during the trib.

And there's "literally" hundreds of more reasons for the pre trib rapture, high on the list is the fact that the church is the "Body of Christ", which is why satan can't prevail over it.

During the trib, satan is given power over all people on earth.

You'll have to recognize the differences between the church and Israel, to get it right.

As I said, understanding "WHY" things happen is to understand "WHAT" is happening.

 

AMen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it!

DISPY VIEWPOINT:

Tom Butler: //If I understand the dispy view correctly,
I Thess 4:13-17 pictures the pre-trib rapture.//

1. that should be "some dispy views". Everybody is
a dispy, some just have only one dispensation, cause it
is easy to understand.

2. In general, 1 Thess 4:13-17 refers to any
rapture. There for sure will be a pretibualtion rapture/resurrection.
There is some Biblical evidence that there will be a postribulation
rapture as well. God nowhere limits Himself to one and only
one rapture (God does limit Himself to one and only one'begotten son',
our Lord and Savior: Messiah Jesus.

 

MISSING THE TRIBULATION

npetreley: //Note that we are here for the great tribulation,
but we are raptured just before God pours
His wrath out on the world.//

How do you deal with Revelation 14:19-20?
Revelation 14:19-20 shows God's wrath being multiplied.
IMHO we will suffer none of the Tribualtion Period, God
will take us all in the Pretribulation Rapture/resurrection.

How do you deal with Revelation 14:12?
Revelation 14:12 shows that after the Tribulation Period
after the Great Tribualtion Period, after the outpouring
of the Wrath of God on unrepentant mankind - the
undiluted wrath of God is put upon those who worship the
beast and his image. That implies that all the Wrath of God
expressed in the Tribulation Period is the diluted
Wrath of God (got hitting with kid gloves on).

IMHO the whole 7-years of the Tribulation Period is
the expression of the diluted Wrath of God. So when it
says we won't experience the Wrath of GOd, we won't be going
into the Tribulation Period. Also note: my belief sees
no different between the Pretribulation Rapture Theory and
the Prewrath Rapture Theory.

Nearby I'll print lots of data showing five different types
of tribulation. Note that some tribulaltion is as we suffer now,
as told by Jesus; some tribulation
is reserved for those evil persons noted in 2 Thess 1:6.

 

The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
(AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

 

"OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION" :

Mel Miller: //Here are the raptured saints in heaven, from Revelation 7:

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude
which no one could number, of all nations, tribes,
peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before
the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branche
in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice,
saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb!”

As if to confirm this chronology down to the letter,
look at the response of the elder in Revelation 7:

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me,
`Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from'?
14 And I said to him, `Sir, you know.'
So he said to me, `These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation'".//

If these are tribulation saints, what does "which no one could number"
mean? Later on in Revelation the number 200,000,000 is mentioned.
I think "which no one could number" means lots more than

BTW, i can say "I came out of the military in Vietnam' unharmed.
I never was in Vietnam. I was in the US military when some
of them were in Vietnam. IMHO those in Revelation 7
are the Church Age saved, regenerated, redeemed, elect saints
who where raptured/resurrected before the Tribulation period
and were thus 'come out of the great tribulation'.

 

Ed v. Mel Miller:

Mel Miller: //The Martrys will not be "avenged by God until
the last one has been killed". Rev.6:9-11.//

You repeated yourself. You didn't explain anything.*
How does the words of Revelation 6:9-11 say that
God will NOT avenge the martyrs until the last one
has been killed? It just is NOT OBVIOUS. So far you
chant a montra and explain nothing.*

*Caveat: As of the posting of the quote, Mel didn't explain in this
topic what that statement meant. Later in this topic
and in other topics Bro. Mel is pretty clear on what he
believes in this area.

Mel Miller: //The following egotistical claim of having your
own private knowledge
of the Holy Spirit's teaching is pure hodge-podge. Your claim:

Ed Edwards: "tee hee. That proves that I didn't get it from ANY HUMAN.
I got it straight from the Holy Spirit".//

Tee Hee you blew that on:

1. I didn't claim 'private knowledge'.
I share this understanding of the scirpture which
the Holy Spirit gave me to anyone that will listen and
many who, as yourself, mock me.

2. To deny that i can get understading from the scripture
by way of the Holy Spirit is to deny many important BAPTIST
distinctive doctrines. I've been a member of Baptist churches
for 54-years. Everyone of them challenged private study of
the Bible and praying that the Holy spirit would help me
understand the deeper truths contained therein.
Well, I have some spiritual truths (the length of which I'm
hasseled about)

3. 10 to 13 years ago someone told me:
"If there is a pretibulation rapture, why didn't Paul
mention it?" I showed where Paul teaches it above.

4. 7 or 9 years ago someone told me:
"if there is a pretribulation rapture, why didn't
John mention it in Revelation?"
Actually the pretribulation rapture is in Revelation
by type at Revelation 4:1

5. 3 or 4 years ago someone told me:
"if there is a pretibulation rapture,
why didn't Jesus teach it?"
Jesus taught the pretribulation rapture
in the Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) of which Matthew 24 and 25
are one of the three examples of the MOD.
I show this in the first post on page two of this topic.

6. I have been a pretribulation rapturist for 54 years,
so I was pretrib long before these things that the Holy Spirit
showed me WHICH IS WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE IN PLAIN SIGHT
were shown to me.

7. May God rebuke you for your false, un-Baptist, claims
about me: //The following egotistical claim of having
your own private knowledge
of the Holy Spirit's teaching is pure hodge-podge.//

Mel Miller: //Again, how in the world do you get a single 12
hour day out of 7 years?//

The same way I get a 1,000 year long DAY OF THE LORD
from 2 Peter 3:10 and 2 Peter 3:8 confirmed by Revelation 20.
BTW, where do you get your 12 hour day? As I recall you
never claimed the 12-hour day of the Lord until you inneracted
with me - tee hee!
Did you ever figure out my 48-hour day which some say is
really on 47-hours? That isn't even in any dictionary, yet.
Your 12-hour day is not scriptural. I even suspect that
an 8-hour work day is more like the REAL STORY than the
12-hour period of daylight (which only happens 2 each 24-hour days
during a calendar year.

Mel Miller: //And you try to flim-flam everybody with your
"7-Year-Day" Hypothesis to prop up your Pre-
trib Rapture theory as occuring on the SAME
DAY as the coming of Christ in power and great
glory with all the Saints. I Thess.3:13; Matt.
24:30-31. //

Tee Hee - can anybody spell 'projection'?

Mel Miller: //You do this by saying the Holy Spirit revealed to you,
and to "no one else" that Matt.24:30 is the coming
of Christ at the end of the 7-Year-Day
and Matt.24:31 is His Pre-trib coming to Rapture
the Saints"!//

Actually I revealed something about myself that you
used against me.
I won't report you. You seem to be the only person
who wants to talk about he details. YOu seem to be
the only one not sounding like a hourse saying
NAY! NAY! For this I thank you.

I saw the three questions in Matthew 24:3 as being
answered by Jesus in Matthew 24:4-44.
The rest of Matthew 24 and all of Matthew 25 is a
group of parables supporting the doctrine Jesus taught.
The last part of Matthew 25 is a description of the
Sheep & Goat NATIons Judgement which determines which
nations of LOST PEOPLE get to stay on earth during
the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom of Christ.
This judgement is nation by nation on the basis of
how the nations treated the Jews (the 'brethern' of Jesus).

Mel Miller: //Equating a "7-year-day" with a single solar Day
is self-contradictory.//

If you are correct, then the Bible is self-contradictory???
Did you note that Daniel 9:27 calls the 7-year period
a 'seven' in some translations, a 'week' in other translations.
I.e. the 'seven', is a week, is a day, is a 7-year-period.
Sorry, the Bible is not contradictory.

YOu know of course, that a 'day' on the earth as seen from
the sun is a different lenght from a 'day' on the earth
as seen from a fixed stelar reference. In fact, the difference
is 1/365th of 24 hours or just under four minutes.

In prophecy 'day' means the appropriate time. The
length of a 'day' can be 1,000 years as in 2 Peter 3:10;
a day' can 7-years long as in Daniel 9:27; a day
can be 1260 each 24-hour days as in Daniel & Revelation
(or 42 months or 3-1/2 years).

 

Ed,

Tomorrow, I will reply to you about rapture and second coming with verses and your intepreting of these verses on them. I will discuss with you. Bible never saying anything about future two comings. Christ, Paul, Peter, and others do not teaching there will be two separate comings in the future at the end of the world.

Men added unto God's Word on second coming into two phases of the second coming. Cause Christians into confusion and misunderstanding. I will discuss on verses on second coming tomorrow.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen! Surely Christ will COME quickly-ONCE AMEN!!!

 

ED

Do you think our defences are strong enough to withstand the coming attack??

 

So, no Christians have ever been killed since the day of Pentecost? Wow. That's an amazing belief you have of what Jesus meant in Matthew.

 

Ed Edwards,

Your quote says it ALL. There needs to be no further discussion:
_______________________________________________
"Did you note that Daniel 9:27 calls the 7-year period a 'seven' in some translations, a 'week' in other translations.

I.e. the 'seven', is a week, is a day, is a 7-year-period. Sorry, the Bible is not contradictory".
_______________________________________________
In fact, nothing more can be discussed!!!
I reached that same conclusion when you insisted
that, in Matt.24:31, Jesus meant He is coming
"BEFORE instead of AFTER the great tribulation".

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

This 70X7=490 days, which each "day" represents a "year", each "week" represent seven years for a grand total of 490 years.

And I might add, These weeks were determined on Israel, not the church, it had no part in the first 69 and neither does it have a part the last week, trib period.

 

Amen, Brother Me4Him - Preach it!

 

Me4Him,

Once again, you miss the entire point of debate
concerning the length of the Day of God's wrath.

Ed Edwards denies that Day is a single 12-hour
day although he admits it might be an 8-hour day.
But he argues that the Day of Wrath (Seal Six) is
the same as 7 years which he claims is ONE DAY.

You argue 490 days represents 490 years. But Daniel instead identifies seven sets of seven years as 490 years. Each set of seven is 49 years; not 49 days.

Daniel limits the second half of the 70th set
of seven years (not as half of 490 days) but as half of 7 years.

And, according to Ed Edwards, that second half would be "HALF of ONE day" since he argues the
7 years are "ONE DAY". April 28, 9:55 AM:
______________________________________________
"I.e. the 'seven', is a week, is a day, is a 7-year-period. Sorry, Bible is not contradictory".
_______________________________________________

Jesus declared His coming will occur on the DAY the sun turns dark. Amos says it will turn dark
at noon. Amos 8:9. Zechariah says the light will
return at twilight after the Lord comes with all
the saints. Zech.14:5-7.

Disregarding these facts, Ed Edwards claims that
Day is seven years and that the Day of the Lord is 1000 years... or a total of 1007 Years. This
is his way of denying the Day of Wrath (Seal 6)
is limited to a 12-Hour Day.

I say it is a 12-Hour day because those working in the fields in Israel may start at 6 AM, six hours before it turns dark in Israel; but it will turn dark on the East Coast of the US at 6 AM our time. At 6 PM in Israel the light will return. For them it will be a 12-Hour Day.

But Ed, and you, contrary to all the evidence,
turn that Day into 7 years to prop up your
theory that allows for two comings of Christ, I.E., one FOR Pre-Trib Saints and the other WITH
Pre-Trib Saints (and maybe Trib-Martyrs since God would not leave their souls in heaven).

But Jesus cannot come with those who "survive to the End" of the great tribulation since you argue the END in Rev.2:26 applies only to Pre-
Trib saints who "overcome to the End".

You guys refuse to see the total confusion.

Mel Miller

 

Let me give you something that's "real easy" to check.

In the OT, God used the "law and prophets" which produced physical "signs and wonders" as proof it was the "word/works of God".

This system of leadership stopped when Jesus came.

Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached,

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,


2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

Jesus now used the "Holy Ghost", which is his voice, and Jesus wouldn't produce the "signs and wonders" the Jew were expecting, those in the Ot that describe the Day of the Lord,

Ya see, Jesus/church was a mystery not revealed to Israel, being ignorant of Jesus first coming, they were expecting the events of his second coming, day of the lord, and Jews won't believe without these "Signs and wonders".

Joh 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign,

Jesus won't produce these signs and Israel won't accept the "voice of Jesus" or his "Ghost" as leader, therefore during the time Jesus is leading the church, Israel is blind to the gospel of Jesus,

Ro 11:25 that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

when the church age is over, (fulness of Gentiles/rapture) the "Holy Ghost" will stop, just as the law and prophets stopped when it came, and when the HG stops the Law and prophets will start again, Moses/Elijah, the two witnesses.

Leadership by both law and prophets and the Holy Ghost do not function at the same time in the same time frame, and that is clearly described in the following verse, if you understand it.

Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain (Jesus) both yield salt water (woman at well) and fresh. (same time)

1. fig tree is Israel
2. Figs, Jews/Israel
3. Olive berries, contained the "oil" (Spirit) to "light the temple", (our bodies/Christians)
4. vine, Jesus
5. Fountain, Jesus
6. water, Knowledge of the Lord
7. Fresh, easy to drink of the cup Jesus drank, spiritually crucified.
8. Salty, hard to drank of Jesus's cup, physical/literal death. (trib)

So, here's the point, the leadership of God and Jesus are different, one uses the L/P, the other the HG, and they don't function at the same time, in the same time frame, when one starts, the other stops, when one stops, the other starts.

And that's just one of the reasons for a "Pre trib rapture".

As I said, this is easy to check.


Heres' the "lamb's marriage supper",

Da 9:27 And "he" (God, i.e. Jesus) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

And it's during the week of the trib.

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, (ABOD) even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

Me4Him,

As usual you introduce all kinds of ideas that
are not pertinent to the question.

The question concerns the saints who "overcome
to the End". You claim this refers only to
Pre-Trib Church Saints. But Trib-Saints also
"overcome to the End"!!

The truth is much easier "to check" than going
though all this regamarole about changing from
the Gospel of Grace back to Keeping the Law.

Your conclusions do not address the question:

Quote:
______________________________________________
"When the church age is over, (fulness of Gentiles/rapture) the "Holy Ghost" will stop, just as the law and prophets stopped when it came, and when the HG stops the Law and prophets will start again, Moses/Elijah, two witnesses".
_______________________________________________

The suffering of Saints continues during the
great tribulation. Jesus promised to be with us
to the END of the Age. That is when He placed
His coming in power and great glory and when He
said He will bring His rewards with Him for
every believer. Matt.28:20; Matt.16:27.

You have no evidence whatsoever that the End of
the Age occurs at the start of Daniel's 70th 7!
It is purely hypothetical that God will stop
dealing with the Church when the Covenant is confirmed by one who later reveals himself by
standing in the Temple.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

I answered your question, but your sequence of end time events is so fouled up you don't see how my answer could apply, that's the problem.

The church is rapture "pre trib", Jews suffer/killed during the trib, the OT/church/trib saints all return with Jesus at the end of the trib, or "post trib".

 

Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it!