The Holy Roman Catholic Church...

jcf · Feb 8, 2005

The Holy
Roman Catholic Church
is it biblically sound or doctrines of demons
by John C. Ferreira

1 Timothy 4:1-3 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

God calls us to test the spirit to make sure it's from Him. How we test the spirit is by the words of God which are found in the Scriptures.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

John 17:17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

Within this limited post we will be testing the spirit of the Roman Catholic Church comparing what it teaches to what the word of God says. In doing this we will be testing the spirit of it to see if it's of God.

God warns us not to follow after the traditions of men. Colossians 2:8 Be careful! Don't let anyone capture you with philosophy or misleading theories that can fool you. These come from the traditions of men and worldly standards, not from Christ!

How does God feel when we call another man "Father" in His place? Matthew 23:9 Don't address anyone here on earth as "Father," for only God in heaven should be addressed like that.

What day did God give as a picture of the Sabbath? Exodus 20:10 The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.

Does God like when we make statues or images to be used in worship? Exodus 20:4-5 "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me.

How does God feel when we repeat prayers? Matthew 6:7 When you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

Does God want us to exalt Mary the mother of Jesus? Luke 11:27-28 It happened, as Jesus spoke these things, a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!'' But Jesus said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Was Mary born without sin? Romans 3:9 What should we think? Are Jews better off? Not at all! We have already proved that all Jews and also non-Jews are under sin.

Is God Mary's Savior? Luke 1:46-47 Mary said: "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.

Is Mary an eternal virgin? Matthew 1 24-25 When Joseph woke up from sleeping, he did as the angel of the Lord had ordered him to do; he took to be his wife. He did not have sexual relations with her, until she gave birth to the little boy. Joseph named him Jesus.

Did Mary have any other children after Jesus? Mark 6:3 "Is this not Jesus the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?"...

Is Mary or anyone else the mediator between God and mankind? 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Can bishops or priests be married? 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach.

Was Peter married? Matthew 8:14 When Jesus had come into Peter's house, He saw Peter*s wife's mother lying sick with a fever.

Is Jesus the Christ the Son of God or God the Son? John 20:31 These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

He is a liar and antichrist who denies that Jesus is the Christ the anointed Son of God. 1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.

Daniel 7:25 The beast shall speak words against the Most High God, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change God's times and the law... READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

[ February 08, 2005, 05:18 AM: Message edited by: jcf ]

Doubting Thomas · Feb 8, 2005

Originally posted by jcf:

1 Timothy 4:1-3 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

Which became true in the teachings and practices of many a gnostic sect throughout the centuries.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Amen

God calls us to test the spirit to make sure it's from Him. How we test the spirit is by the words of God which are found in the Scriptures.

But whose interpretation? yours? mine? Marcionites'? Arians'? Sabellians'? Gnostics'? Ebionites'? Apollinarians'? Nestorians'? Or is it the Church's interpretation since the Church is "the ground and pillar of truth". (I Timothy 3:15)

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

John 17:17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

Amen, to all of the above.

Within this limited post we will be testing the spirit of the Roman Catholic Church comparing what it teaches to what the word of God says. In doing this we will be testing the spirit of it to see if it's of God.

I'm not Roman Catholic, but many of your arguments to follow are simply fallacious.

God warns us not to follow after the traditions of men. Colossians 2:8 Be careful! Don't let anyone capture you with philosophy or misleading theories that can fool you. These come from the traditions of men and worldly standards, not from Christ!

But Paul also commands us to follow the apostolic traditions which are from God passed down in the church by the apostles(1 Cor 11:2, 2 Thess 2:15, and 2 Thess 3:6)

How does God feel when we call another man "Father" in His place? Matthew 23:9 Don't address anyone here on earth as "Father," for only God in heaven should be addressed like that.

So you don't call your own father, "father"? Christ was probably referring to the practice of adherents of rival rabbinical schools of addressing their particular teacher as "father" to the exclusion of others. (Or else we're absolutely forbidden call anyone a "teacher" as well) OTOH, Paul considered himself a "father" in a spiritual sense to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 4:15). That's the sense in which Catholics, Orthodox, and Anglicans refer to their pastors as "father".

What day did God give as a picture of the Sabbath? Exodus 20:10 The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.

But the Church has been worshipping on the Lord's Day, Sunday, from the beginning since that is the Day Christ rose from the dead.

Does God like when we make statues or images to be used in worship?

You mean like the images of the cherubim on the ark of the covenant or of the cherubim, oxen, and lions in the Temple (1 Kings 7:28)? Or is it possible that not all imagery (icons) used in worship is necessarily idolatrous?

How does God feel when we repeat prayers? Matthew 6:7 When you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

Are you referring to Psalm 136, for example, in which the phrase "for His mercy endures forever" is repeated 26 times? Or is not all repetition necessarily "vain"?

Does God want us to exalt Mary the mother of Jesus?

Yes. Luke 1:48: "Henceforth all generations will call me blessed". If the Angel Gabriel can declare her blessed among women and highly favored (v.28), why can't we? Why should we not exalt those whom God has exalted? And who else among the daughters of Eve has God so exalted by choosing her to be His mother?

Was Mary born without sin?
Is God Mary's Savior? Luke 1:46-47 Mary said: "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.

Without personal sin, "yes". Without ancestral (or original sin), "no". Of course, God (and therefore Christ) is Mary's Savior.

Is Mary an eternal virgin? Matthew 1 24-25 When Joseph woke up from sleeping, he did as the angel of the Lord had ordered him to do; he took to be his wife. He did not have sexual relations with her, until she gave birth to the little boy. Joseph named him Jesus.

The word "until" doesn't prove anything either way about her virginal status subsequent to giving birth to Christ. Just as "'Sit at My right hand till I make Your enemies Your footstool'" (Matt 22:44) does not prove that after Christ's enemies are defeated He will no longer sit at the Father's right hand.

Did Mary have any other children after Jesus? Mark 6:3 "Is this not Jesus the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?"...

The earliest tradition is that these children were Joseph's by a previous marriage, as Joseph was an older widower.

Is Mary or anyone else the mediator between God and mankind? 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Christ is the Mediator because of His Person and Work. However, Christians are mediators in a secondary sense. We are a "royal priesthood" and we are to intercede for others with our prayers. Mary and the other glorified saints are also mediators and intercessors in this secondary sense. But you're right--Mary is not the fourth person in the Trinity as some(but not all) modern Catholics are dangerously close to implying.

Can bishops or priests be married? 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach.

But he doesn't have to be married. Paul discussed the benefits of celebacy in regards to serving God in 1 Corinthians 7:1-9. This is a matter of practical church discipline. In the Orthodox Church, priests can be married, but bishops are chosen from among the non-married priests because of their added administrative responsibilities.

Was Peter married? Matthew 8:14 When Jesus had come into Peter's house, He saw Peter*s wife's mother lying sick with a fever.

Yes. He was married. (I'm guessing this was aimed at the papacy)

Is Jesus the Christ the Son of God or God the Son? John 20:31 These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

It's both, unless you are by implication advocating a form of the Arian heresy.

He is a liar and antichrist who denies that Jesus is the Christ the anointed Son of God. 1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.

And which Catholic teaching has denied the Father and the Son?

Daniel 7:25 The beast shall speak words against the Most High God, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change God's times and the law... READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

Yes, read your Bible, but by all means read it in context. This includes the grammatical, historical, and ecclesiastical context.

Just some food for thought.

Christian_1 · Feb 8, 2005

Some use the bible to accurately prove that the roman catholic denomination is NOT THE CHURCH founded by Christ; some others try to use the bible to speak in favor of it, then claim 'they are not roman castholic' or say 'they are not supporters of it.

I won't argue, and surely won't beat about the bush. I also refuse to hide behind any bush, either.

KNOWING the horrendous history of the religion which calls itself 'roman catholic', knowing its greed (stealing lands and personal possessions from those who refused to accede to its demands) -- knowing its immense gaudy displays (the golden monstrances, the golden crosses with Jesus depicted as still in agony ON it.)
--knowing its sexual perversion which for centuries has been protected and kept hidden, only now to show the scars which remain upon those unfortunate people so abused by it;
--knowing how it teaches falsely... let's consider the fsble known as 'transubstantiation' which 'innocent IIIrd' promulgated & insisted under pain of torture and burning to death as a heretic, EVERYONE would believe.....
--knowing how it teaches falsely concerning the imaginary place called 'pugatory'...
--knowing how its doctrine insists that Mary is worthy to be prayed TO, and that she can answer prayers.... while ALL THE WHILE, it is a DEFINITE that we are to pray to GOD in Jesus's perfect and holy name.
--knowing we are NOT to call any man in a 'leadership position' as in a church "Father" - the roman catholic denominaton ignores that, and calls its popes 'The Holy Father' and 'His Hiliness' - BOTH terms which are reserved for God ALONE.

And so -- it should be one way or another... either people support roman catholicism, or they support CHRISTIANITY.

I support the latter.

Christian1

donnA · Feb 8, 2005

And so -- it should be one way or another... either people support roman catholicism, or they support CHRISTIANITY

AMEN!
there is a biblical difference between the two.

NaasPreacher (C4K) · Feb 8, 2005

Plenty of errors there Joseph, but the "ark" illustration is the one that always mystifies me the most.

There is NO evidence to say that Mary was the "new ark."

PlainSense Bible believer · Feb 8, 2005

Joseph96

Just a few quotes and comments that I believe are relevant to this discussion.

The Catholic Catechism, Paragraph 841, states:

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

However, what does the Koran say?

Surah 5:75-76,

"They do blaspheme who say: 'Allah is Christ the son of Mary.' But said Christ: 'O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord' Whoever joins other gods with Allah, --Allah will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrongdoers be no one to help. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: For there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them."

John 5:23 says that:

"He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him."

and Acts 4:12 says of Jesus Christ that

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

Are you happy to be associated with a religion that:

1. Says that Muslims are included in "the plan of salvation", even though they do not believe in The Son Of God, nor Honour The Son Of God, and threaten those who do (Christians) with "a grievous penalty"?

2. Pronounces a curse from the church on anyone who doesn't believe that good works are necessary for salvation?

"If anyone saith that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works, but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof, let him be anathema." (Council of Trent; Session 6 – Justification; Canon XXIV)

3. Denies that Jesus' work on the Cross has permanently and completely paid the penalty for our sins?

"If anyone saith that, after the grace of justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world or in the next in Purgatory, before entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened [to him], let him be anathema." (Council of Trent; Session 6 – Justification; Canon XXX)

Catholic Catechism paragraph 1473:

"The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains."

I have to agree with the others. Roman Catholicism is not Christianity.

Phillip · Feb 8, 2005

Originally posted by C4K:
Plenty of errors there Joseph, but the "ark" illustration is the one that always mystifies me the most.

There is NO evidence to say that Mary was the "new ark."

C4K, don't worry about it. We will get it all figured out while we are in purgatory.

The time I realized the Catholic church was not the right church was when I went to a wedding of a Catholic friend of mine and they had a big drunken party out on the church lawn where the priest got drunker than anybody.

I started asking around and found out that this occurs quite often in Catholic Churches.

This turned me against Catholicism really fast. Sure, it can be explained away by a good Catholic, but it sure didn't cut it in my book.

NaasPreacher (C4K) · Feb 8, 2005

Sorry, Joseph, every Mary=ark passage you quote is a convoluted interpretation. According to your reckoning virtually every un-named woman in the Bible refers to Mary and every birth pang refers to Christ.

Your interpretations are designed by your church to support it's man-made doctrine of Maryolatry.

Phillip · Feb 8, 2005

Originally posted by PlainSense Bible believer:

Roman Catholicism is not Christianity.

That will be three hail-mary's and $150.00. Then come back next week and we shall see if you feel the same.

NaasPreacher (C4K) · Feb 8, 2005

Virtually all of my friends here are Roman Catholic. I love them, but I despise the vile man-made organisation which traps them with fear and intimidation. This organisation makes a mockery of my Lord's death by telling people that His sacrifice was not enough, they must follow the sacraments in order to be saved, and even then they must spend time in pergatory paying for sins which my Lord already paid for. Why then did My Lord have to die?

I am sure that there are saved Catholics, don't get me wrong. Their false teachings are much deeper than the surface things being discussed in this thread.

Squire Robertsson · Feb 8, 2005

Or to simplify C4K's statement, it is a question of Do or Done.

PlainSense Bible believer · Feb 8, 2005

C4K,

I am sure that there are saved Catholics, don't get me wrong.

You're quite right, there are genuine believers in the Roman Catholic church. I know interpretations vary, but there are strong indications that Revelation chapters 17 and 18 refer to the Roman Catholic church, and Revelation 18:4 says of genuine believers in the RC church:

...Come out of her, my people , that ye be not partakers of her sins... [my emphsis]

jcf · Feb 8, 2005

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jcf:

1 Timothy 4:1-3 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

Which became true in the teachings and practices of many a gnostic sect throughout the centuries.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Click to expand...

Amen

God calls us to test the spirit to make sure it's from Him. How we test the spirit is by the words of God which are found in the Scriptures.

Click to expand...

But whose interpretation? yours? mine? Marcionites'? Arians'? Sabellians'? Gnostics'? Ebionites'? Apollinarians'? Nestorians'? Or is it the Church's interpretation since the Church is "the ground and pillar of truth". (I Timothy 3:15)

Test the spirit with Scripture as whole using Scripture to interpret Scripture.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

John 17:17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

Click to expand...

Amen, to all of the above.

Within this limited post we will be testing the spirit of the Roman Catholic Church comparing what it teaches to what the word of God says. In doing this we will be testing the spirit of it to see if it's of God.

Click to expand...

I'm not Roman Catholic, but many of your arguments to follow are simply fallacious.

These are not my arguments they're God's. He is the one who sets the standard.

God warns us not to follow after the traditions of men. Colossians 2:8 Be careful! Don't let anyone capture you with philosophy or misleading theories that can fool you. These come from the traditions of men and worldly standards, not from Christ!

Click to expand...

But Paul also commands us to follow the apostolic traditions which are from God passed down in the church by the apostles(1 Cor 11:2, 2 Thess 2:15, and 2 Thess 3:6)

Yes, the God ordained apostolic traditions.

How does God feel when we call another man "Father" in His place? Matthew 23:9 Don't address anyone here on earth as "Father," for only God in heaven should be addressed like that.

Click to expand...

So you don't call your own father, "father"? Christ was probably referring to the practice of adherents of rival rabbinical schools of addressing their particular teacher as "father" to the exclusion of others. (Or else we're absolutely forbidden call anyone a "teacher" as well) OTOH, Paul considered himself a "father" in a spiritual sense to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 4:15). That's the sense in which Catholics, Orthodox, and Anglicans refer to their pastors as "father".

If you read it carefully you would see that God says not to call anyone "Father" in His place . Nothing to do with my earthly father.

What day did God give as a picture of the Sabbath? Exodus 20:10 The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.

Click to expand...

But the Church has been worshipping on the Lord's Day, Sunday, from the beginning since that is the Day Christ rose from the dead.

You can worship on anyday you want but you can't call anyday the Sabbath.

Does God like when we make statues or images to be used in worship?

Click to expand...

You mean like the images of the cherubim on the ark of the covenant or of the cherubim, oxen, and lions in the Temple (1 Kings 7:28)? Or is it possible that not all imagery (icons) used in worship is necessarily idolatrous?

No images or statues to be used in worship, in other words, to give them a place deity, power and reverence.

How does God feel when we repeat prayers? Matthew 6:7 When you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

Click to expand...

Are you referring to Psalm 136, for example, in which the phrase "for His mercy endures forever" is repeated 26 times? Or is not all repetition necessarily "vain"?

God's mercy does endure forever and needs to shouted from the roof tops. God says no vain repetitions of prayer. If you look up the verses that follow this statement you will find the Lord's prayer. It's like a slap in the face of God and a mockery when it's repeated time and time and time again as seen in the rosary.

Does God want us to exalt Mary the mother of Jesus?

Click to expand...

Yes. Luke 1:48: "Henceforth all generations will call me blessed". If the Angel Gabriel can declare her blessed among women and highly favored (v.28), why can't we? Why should we not exalt those whom God has exalted? And who else among the daughters of Eve has God so exalted by choosing her to be His mother?

Being blessed of God is one thing but being exalted to a place of worship is another. This woman in the crowd with Jesus was not just stating that Mary was blessed she was doing more than that and Jesus knew it and corrected her.

Was Mary born without sin?
Is God Mary's Savior? Luke 1:46-47 Mary said: "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.

Click to expand...

Without personal sin, "yes". Without ancestral (or original sin), "no". Of course, God (and therefore Christ) is Mary's Savior.

The wages of sin is death. Did Mary die?

Is Mary an eternal virgin? Matthew 1 24-25 When Joseph woke up from sleeping, he did as the angel of the Lord had ordered him to do; he took to be his wife. He did not have sexual relations with her, until she gave birth to the little boy. Joseph named him Jesus.

Click to expand...

The word "until" doesn't prove anything either way about her virginal status subsequent to giving birth to Christ. Just as "'Sit at My right hand till I make Your enemies Your footstool'" (Matt 22:44) does not prove that after Christ's enemies are defeated He will no longer sit at the Father's right hand.

I'm not sure what you're saying but according to God's word, Mary is no longer a virgin and there is nothing wrong or unholy about that.

Did Mary have any other children after Jesus? Mark 6:3 "Is this not Jesus the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?"...

Click to expand...

The earliest tradition is that these children were Joseph's by a previous marriage, as Joseph was an older widower.

WOW! where do you draw the line in resisting the truth?

Is Mary or anyone else the mediator between God and mankind? 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Click to expand...

Christ is the Mediator because of His Person and Work. However, Christians are mediators in a secondary sense. We are a "royal priesthood" and we are to intercede for others with our prayers. Mary and the other glorified saints are also mediators and intercessors in this secondary sense. But you're right--Mary is not the fourth person in the Trinity as some(but not all) modern Catholics are dangerously close to implying.

We are a royal priesthood in a personal sense in that we are able to approach the Holy of Holies through the blood of Jesus Christ.

Can bishops or priests be married? 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach.

Click to expand...

But he doesn't have to be married. Paul discussed the benefits of celebacy in regards to serving God in 1 Corinthians 7:1-9. This is a matter of practical church discipline. In the Orthodox Church, priests can be married, but bishops are chosen from among the non-married priests because of their added administrative responsibilities.

If they forbid them to marry then it's agaist God's truth.

Was Peter married? Matthew 8:14 When Jesus had come into Peter's house, He saw Peter*s wife's mother lying sick with a fever.

Click to expand...

Yes. He was married. (I'm guessing this was aimed at the papacy)

Just showing the fact that Peter gave the thumbs up to marriage for thoes who say Peter was the first pope of the RCC.

Is Jesus the Christ the Son of God or God the Son? John 20:31 These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

Click to expand...

It's both, unless you are by implication advocating a form of the Arian heresy.

Jesus was given the title (God, judge) because of His obedience to His Father's will even unto death.

He is a liar and antichrist who denies that Jesus is the Christ the anointed Son of God. 1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.

Click to expand...

And which Catholic teaching has denied the Father and the Son?

When you deny that Jesus was a man anointed of God and teach a co-eternal, co-equal godman then you deny the Father and Son relationship.

Daniel 7:25 The beast shall speak words against the Most High God, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change God's times and the law... READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

Click to expand...

Yes, read your Bible, but by all means read it in context. This includes the grammatical, historical, and ecclesiastical context.

The bible as a whole speaks and interprets for itself.

Just some food for thought. </font>[/QUOTE]

jcf · Feb 8, 2005

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
[QB]

1 Timothy 4:1-3 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

Which became true in the teachings and practices of many a gnostic sect throughout the centuries.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Amen

God calls us to test the spirit to make sure it's from Him. How we test the spirit is by the words of God which are found in the Scriptures.

But whose interpretation? yours? mine? Marcionites'? Arians'? Sabellians'? Gnostics'? Ebionites'? Apollinarians'? Nestorians'? Or is it the Church's interpretation since the Church is "the ground and pillar of truth". (I Timothy 3:15)

Test the spirit with Scripture as whole using Scripture to interpret Scripture.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

John 17:17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

Amen, to all of the above.

Within this limited post we will be testing the spirit of the Roman Catholic Church comparing what it teaches to what the word of God says. In doing this we will be testing the spirit of it to see if it's of God.

I'm not Roman Catholic, but many of your arguments to follow are simply fallacious.

These are not my arguments they're God's. He is the one who sets the standard.

God warns us not to follow after the traditions of men. Colossians 2:8 Be careful! Don't let anyone capture you with philosophy or misleading theories that can fool you. These come from the traditions of men and worldly standards, not from Christ!

But Paul also commands us to follow the apostolic traditions which are from God passed down in the church by the apostles(1 Cor 11:2, 2 Thess 2:15, and 2 Thess 3:6)

Yes, the God ordained apostolic traditions.

How does God feel when we call another man "Father" in His place? Matthew 23:9 Don't address anyone here on earth as "Father," for only God in heaven should be addressed like that.

So you don't call your own father, "father"? Christ was probably referring to the practice of adherents of rival rabbinical schools of addressing their particular teacher as "father" to the exclusion of others. (Or else we're absolutely forbidden call anyone a "teacher" as well) OTOH, Paul considered himself a "father" in a spiritual sense to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 4:15). That's the sense in which Catholics, Orthodox, and Anglicans refer to their pastors as "father".

If you read it carefully you would see that God says not to call anyone "Father" in His place . Nothing to do with my earthly father.

What day did God give as a picture of the Sabbath? Exodus 20:10 The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.

But the Church has been worshipping on the Lord's Day, Sunday, from the beginning since that is the Day Christ rose from the dead.

You can worship on anyday you want but you can't call anyday the Sabbath.

Does God like when we make statues or images to be used in worship?

You mean like the images of the cherubim on the ark of the covenant or of the cherubim, oxen, and lions in the Temple (1 Kings 7:28)? Or is it possible that not all imagery (icons) used in worship is necessarily idolatrous?

No images or statues to be used in worship, in other words, to give them a place deity, power and reverence.

How does God feel when we repeat prayers? Matthew 6:7 When you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

Are you referring to Psalm 136, for example, in which the phrase "for His mercy endures forever" is repeated 26 times? Or is not all repetition necessarily "vain"?

God's mercy does endure forever and needs to shouted from the roof tops. God says no vain repetitions of prayer. If you look up the verses that follow this statement you will find the Lord's prayer. It's like a slap in the face of God and a mockery when it's repeated time and time and time again as seen in the rosary.

Does God want us to exalt Mary the mother of Jesus?

Yes. Luke 1:48: "Henceforth all generations will call me blessed". If the Angel Gabriel can declare her blessed among women and highly favored (v.28), why can't we? Why should we not exalt those whom God has exalted? And who else among the daughters of Eve has God so exalted by choosing her to be His mother?

Being blessed of God is one thing but being exalted to a place of worship is another. This woman in the crowd with Jesus was not just stating that Mary was blessed she was doing more than that and Jesus knew it and corrected her.

Was Mary born without sin?
Is God Mary's Savior? Luke 1:46-47 Mary said: "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.

Without personal sin, "yes". Without ancestral (or original sin), "no". Of course, God (and therefore Christ) is Mary's Savior.

The wages of sin is death. Did Mary die?

Is Mary an eternal virgin? Matthew 1 24-25 When Joseph woke up from sleeping, he did as the angel of the Lord had ordered him to do; he took to be his wife. He did not have sexual relations with her, until she gave birth to the little boy. Joseph named him Jesus.

The word "until" doesn't prove anything either way about her virginal status subsequent to giving birth to Christ. Just as "'Sit at My right hand till I make Your enemies Your footstool'" (Matt 22:44) does not prove that after Christ's enemies are defeated He will no longer sit at the Father's right hand.

I'm not sure what you're saying but according to God's word, Mary is no longer a virgin and there is nothing wrong or unholy about that.

Did Mary have any other children after Jesus? Mark 6:3 "Is this not Jesus the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?"...

The earliest tradition is that these children were Joseph's by a previous marriage, as Joseph was an older widower.

WOW! where do you draw the line in resisting the truth?

Is Mary or anyone else the mediator between God and mankind? 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Christ is the Mediator because of His Person and Work. However, Christians are mediators in a secondary sense. We are a "royal priesthood" and we are to intercede for others with our prayers. Mary and the other glorified saints are also mediators and intercessors in this secondary sense. But you're right--Mary is not the fourth person in the Trinity as some(but not all) modern Catholics are dangerously close to implying.

We are a royal priesthood in a personal sense in that we are able to approach the Holy of Holies through the blood of Jesus Christ.

Can bishops or priests be married? 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach.

But he doesn't have to be married. Paul discussed the benefits of celebacy in regards to serving God in 1 Corinthians 7:1-9. This is a matter of practical church discipline. In the Orthodox Church, priests can be married, but bishops are chosen from among the non-married priests because of their added administrative responsibilities.

If they forbid them to marry then it's agaist God's truth.

Was Peter married? Matthew 8:14 When Jesus had come into Peter's house, He saw Peter*s wife's mother lying sick with a fever.

Yes. He was married. (I'm guessing this was aimed at the papacy)

Just showing the fact that Peter gave the thumbs up to marriage for thoes who say Peter was the first pope of the RCC.

Is Jesus the Christ the Son of God or God the Son? John 20:31 These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

It's both, unless you are by implication advocating a form of the Arian heresy.

Jesus was given the title (God, judge) because of His obedience to His Father's will even unto death.

He is a liar and antichrist who denies that Jesus is the Christ the anointed Son of God. 1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.

And which Catholic teaching has denied the Father and the Son?

When you deny that Jesus was a man anointed of God and teach a co-eternal, co-equal godman then you deny the Father and Son relationship.

Daniel 7:25 The beast shall speak words against the Most High God, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change God's times and the law... READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

Yes, read your Bible, but by all means read it in context. This includes the grammatical, historical, and ecclesiastical context.

The bible as a whole speaks for itself.

jcf · Feb 8, 2005

Originally posted by jcf:

1 Timothy 4:1-3 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

Which became true in the teachings and practices of many a gnostic sect throughout the centuries.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Amen

God calls us to test the spirit to make sure it's from Him. How we test the spirit is by the words of God which are found in the Scriptures.

But whose interpretation? yours? mine? Marcionites'? Arians'? Sabellians'? Gnostics'? Ebionites'? Apollinarians'? Nestorians'? Or is it the Church's interpretation since the Church is "the ground and pillar of truth". (I Timothy 3:15)

Test the spirit with Scripture as whole using Scripture to interpret Scripture.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

John 17:17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

Amen, to all of the above.

Within this limited post we will be testing the spirit of the Roman Catholic Church comparing what it teaches to what the word of God says. In doing this we will be testing the spirit of it to see if it's of God.

I'm not Roman Catholic, but many of your arguments to follow are simply fallacious.

These are not my arguments they're God's. He is the one who sets the standard.

God warns us not to follow after the traditions of men. Colossians 2:8 Be careful! Don't let anyone capture you with philosophy or misleading theories that can fool you. These come from the traditions of men and worldly standards, not from Christ!

But Paul also commands us to follow the apostolic traditions which are from God passed down in the church by the apostles(1 Cor 11:2, 2 Thess 2:15, and 2 Thess 3:6)

Yes, the God ordained apostolic traditions.

How does God feel when we call another man "Father" in His place? Matthew 23:9 Don't address anyone here on earth as "Father," for only God in heaven should be addressed like that.

So you don't call your own father, "father"? Christ was probably referring to the practice of adherents of rival rabbinical schools of addressing their particular teacher as "father" to the exclusion of others. (Or else we're absolutely forbidden call anyone a "teacher" as well) OTOH, Paul considered himself a "father" in a spiritual sense to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 4:15). That's the sense in which Catholics, Orthodox, and Anglicans refer to their pastors as "father".

If you read it carefully you would see that God says not to call anyone "Father" in His place . Nothing to do with my earthly father.

What day did God give as a picture of the Sabbath? Exodus 20:10 The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.

But the Church has been worshipping on the Lord's Day, Sunday, from the beginning since that is the Day Christ rose from the dead.

You can worship on anyday you want but you can't call anyday the Sabbath.

Does God like when we make statues or images to be used in worship?

You mean like the images of the cherubim on the ark of the covenant or of the cherubim, oxen, and lions in the Temple (1 Kings 7:28)? Or is it possible that not all imagery (icons) used in worship is necessarily idolatrous?

No images or statues to be used in worship, in other words, to give them a place deity, power and reverence.

How does God feel when we repeat prayers? Matthew 6:7 When you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

Are you referring to Psalm 136, for example, in which the phrase "for His mercy endures forever" is repeated 26 times? Or is not all repetition necessarily "vain"?

God's mercy does endure forever and needs to shouted from the roof tops. God says no vain repetitions of prayer. If you look up the verses that follow this statement you will find the Lord's prayer. It's like a slap in the face of God and a mockery when it's repeated time and time and time again as seen in the rosary.

Does God want us to exalt Mary the mother of Jesus?

Yes. Luke 1:48: "Henceforth all generations will call me blessed". If the Angel Gabriel can declare her blessed among women and highly favored (v.28), why can't we? Why should we not exalt those whom God has exalted? And who else among the daughters of Eve has God so exalted by choosing her to be His mother?

Being blessed of God is one thing but being exalted to a place of worship is another. This woman in the crowd with Jesus was not just stating that Mary was blessed she was doing more than that and Jesus knew it and corrected her.

Was Mary born without sin?
Is God Mary's Savior? Luke 1:46-47 Mary said: "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.

Without personal sin, "yes". Without ancestral (or original sin), "no". Of course, God (and therefore Christ) is Mary's Savior.

The wages of sin is death. Did Mary die?

Is Mary an eternal virgin? Matthew 1 24-25 When Joseph woke up from sleeping, he did as the angel of the Lord had ordered him to do; he took to be his wife. He did not have sexual relations with her, until she gave birth to the little boy. Joseph named him Jesus.

The word "until" doesn't prove anything either way about her virginal status subsequent to giving birth to Christ. Just as "'Sit at My right hand till I make Your enemies Your footstool'" (Matt 22:44) does not prove that after Christ's enemies are defeated He will no longer sit at the Father's right hand.

I'm not sure what you're saying but according to God's word, Mary is no longer a virgin and there is nothing wrong or unholy about that.

Did Mary have any other children after Jesus? Mark 6:3 "Is this not Jesus the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?"...

The earliest tradition is that these children were Joseph's by a previous marriage, as Joseph was an older widower.

WOW! where do you draw the line in resisting the truth?

Is Mary or anyone else the mediator between God and mankind? 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Christ is the Mediator because of His Person and Work. However, Christians are mediators in a secondary sense. We are a "royal priesthood" and we are to intercede for others with our prayers. Mary and the other glorified saints are also mediators and intercessors in this secondary sense. But you're right--Mary is not the fourth person in the Trinity as some(but not all) modern Catholics are dangerously close to implying.

We are a royal priesthood in a personal sense in that we are able to approach the Holy of Holies through the blood of Jesus Christ.

Can bishops or priests be married? 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach.

But he doesn't have to be married. Paul discussed the benefits of celebacy in regards to serving God in 1 Corinthians 7:1-9. This is a matter of practical church discipline. In the Orthodox Church, priests can be married, but bishops are chosen from among the non-married priests because of their added administrative responsibilities.

If they forbid them to marry then it's agaist God's truth.

Was Peter married? Matthew 8:14 When Jesus had come into Peter's house, He saw Peter*s wife's mother lying sick with a fever.

Yes. He was married. (I'm guessing this was aimed at the papacy)

Just showing the fact that Peter gave the thumbs up to marriage for thoes who say Peter was the first pope of the RCC.

Is Jesus the Christ the Son of God or God the Son? John 20:31 These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

It's both, unless you are by implication advocating a form of the Arian heresy.

Jesus was given the title (God, judge) because of His obedience to His Father's will even unto death.

He is a liar and antichrist who denies that Jesus is the Christ the anointed Son of God. 1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.

And which Catholic teaching has denied the Father and the Son?

When you deny that Jesus was a man anointed of God and teach a co-eternal, co-equal godman then you deny the Father and Son relationship.

Daniel 7:25 The beast shall speak words against the Most High God, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change God's times and the law... READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

Yes, read your Bible, but by all means read it in context. This includes the grammatical, historical, and ecclesiastical context.

The bible as a whole speaks for itself.

jcf · Feb 9, 2005

SORRY FOR MULTIPLE REPLYS, MY COMPUTER WAS GIVING ME TROUBLE...

Matt Black · Feb 9, 2005

OK, I'm getting confused now as to who is posting and who is being quoted in the last few posts, but a couple of points anyway.

First, let me second what Doubting Thomas has posted.

Secondly, homing in in particular on the issue of Scriptural interpretation, there's an interesting couple of threads (started by moi, he said modestly!) here and here On the 'Bible as sacrament' thread, read the last couple of pages in particular. From this you will notice that "the Bible as a whole DOES NOT speak for itself" where interpretation is concerned; if it did, we'd all agree. For instance, how do you interpret I Peter 3:21? How does a Catholic interpret it? Same verse, different views - and that's just one verse! And what about I Cor 12-14 ref spiritual gifts - a cessationist is going to have a very different view of this than a charismatic. Or take this quote from Ron Sider:-

"Social activists quote Luke 4:16ff to prove that faithful Christians, like Jesus, must meet the physical needs of the poor, blind, lame and oppressed. Charismatics quote Luke 4:16ff to demonstrate faithful Christians, like Jesus, should be “filled with the power of the Spirit” and therefore perform miraculous signs and wonders. Proponents of world evangelisation cite Luke 4:16ff…to show that faithful Christians, like Jesus, will present Good News to those who have not yet heard. Tragically, each group sometimes ignores or even rejects the concerns of others. The different interpretations of specific texts, of course, result from fundamentally divergent understandings of the kingdom. Medieval Catholicism, on the one hand, tended to identify the kingdom with the institutional, visible church. Modern social activists, on the other hand, have viewed the kingdom largely as a social-economic-political reality that beings can create through politics – whether democratic politics in the social gospel movement or Marxist revolution in some liberation theology. Many 20th century evangelicals understand the kingdom largely as an inner spiritual reality in the souls of believers…Other conservative Christians (in the dispensationalist tradition of Darby and the Scofield Reference Bible) have seen the kingdom as entirely future.”

Again, that's just one small passage. So, you're view that the Bible is self-interpreting is farcical; we need an ecclesial community of Christians to help us interpret. That community is called the Church - and yes, that includes Catholics.

Yours in Christ

Matt

Doubting Thomas · Feb 9, 2005

Good post, Matt.

(I'll answer some of jcf's specific rebuttals later)

RockRambler · Feb 9, 2005

A question that I have for anyone who is a RCC defender:

My wife attempted to get an annulment (She was a Catholic at the time). She was told that it would cost $2800 and that without it she could not receive communion if she remarried.

Yet another member went to prison for sexual molestation of children. After he served his time, he was allowed to rejoin the choir the first Sunday after his release and receive communion.

Isn't it something when an organization considers remarriage unforgivable, but sexual molestation is easily forgiven?

Matt Black · Feb 9, 2005

Matt 19:1-6 (since y'all love prooftexting!) is a good starting point, I guess. I don't know your wife's circumstances but I would guess the Catholic Church takes Jesus' words here pretty seriously; it's not a question of being forgiven a past sin (like the paedophile - although I would say it was unwise of the particular church to let him rejoin the choir) but rather asking the Catholic Church to acquiesce in what they consider to be an ongoing sin: someone who is already married in the eyes of the Church - and Jesus - marrying another and thereby committing adultery

Yours in Christ

Matt

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