The Holy Roman Catholic Church...

Is it your position that the Catholic church did NOT "divide" into eastern and Roman Catholic schisms?

Is it your position that Martin Luther was not a Catholic, trained by the Catholic church etc?

The fact is that the RCC is the "center" of all major schisms in history if not the cause.

All Christian churches today can trace their roots back to the apostles through some group of other Christians that gave rise to the current set. (No news there).

The RCC has no more right to claim that Peter was a Roman Catholic than Baptist do to claim that Peter was a Baptist.

In fact - given the fact that Peter never taught Purgatory, Never called Mary "the Mother of God", Never prayed TO or FOR the dead, never baptized an infant, never claimed to forgive sins... one could argue that though he was not a Southern Baptist - he WAS MUCH MORE Southern Baptist than Roman Catholic!

Finally - your approach above seems to argue that ALL other Christian groups must fit into ONE church and defennd schisms as just and true WHILE the RCC denomination must only defend its own unified clergy and does not have to take the blame for all the schisms IT started!

A fascinating kind of argument you make!

And what about the RCC owning up to the millions of Christians it slaughters BY POLICY of "extermination" see the (Lateran IV council for examples)


Notice how you try to lump ALL non-RC churches into one giant organization and acccuse them of not all agreeing?? That would be like me blaming RCC because the RCC and Baptists don't agree!!

How much sense does that make??

Your argument here is hard to follow. WHY should "WE" expect all non-Catholic churches to behave TOGETHER any different than Catholics and Baptist relate TOGETHER??

In Christ,

Bob

 

In the beginning was the WORD the WORD was WITH God and the WORD WAS GOD! (John 1)

In that SAME context John 1 ALSO says "THE WORD BECAME FLESH"

There is no OTHER context in all of scripture in which the statement "the WORD BECAME FLESH" is available so as to find ANOTHER meaning.

The WORD was WITH God and the WORD WAS GOD even BEFORE God the Son was incarnated. (according to the chapter) so when the WORD BECOMES something - it is the SAME WORD of the context set by John 1.

This is impossible to escape.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The RCC is blatantly wrong on so000 many points (Purgatory, infant baptism, Popery, Mariolotry, murdering the saints, infallability, tradition over doctrine...) -- why on earth would you water down a focus on those gross errors with this debate on the Trinity??

What a perfect ploy for the RCC member to use here to defocus the thread away from the clear and blatant errors of the RCC that all can see.

Why not put the Trinity discussion in the parking lot for the sake of clear focus - or at least start it as it's own thread??

Bob

 

I have to say that I find this statement somewhat bizarre. What about Anglicanism? I think you'll find that that was down to a certain King Henry. What about Methodism (split from Anglicanism)? Pentecostalism (deriving from Methodism)? Plymouth Brethren (from Church of Ireland)? House Churches/ charismatic movement (split from Free Evangelical Churches)? And, of course, the Baptists (split from Anglicanism)? That's just a few of the English-speaking sects and denominations. What on earth had the Catholic Church to do with those schisms?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

What is the cause of Divisions in the Church?

Romanists have persisted in bringing against Protestants the charge of heresy and willful separation from the true church. But these accusations apply rather to themselves. They are the ones who laid down the banner of Christ and departed from "the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 3. It is they who caused the original division in Christianity.

However, many Protestants then did their own part in causing even further divisions in the church for various reasons.

Human theories and speculations will never lead to an understanding to God's word. Those who suppose that they understand philosophy think that their explanations are necessary to unlock the treasures of knowledge and to prevent heresies from coming into the church. But it is these explanations that have brought in false theories and heresies. Men have made desperate efforts to explain what they thought to be intricate scriptures; but too often their efforts have only darkened that which they tried to make clear. For instance, when the Bible plainly says things like: 1Jn:2:3: "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments." 1Jn:2:4: "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." Rv:22:14: "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Mt:19:17: "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" --they do not want to accept such plain statements as truth but instead seek to twist the Word of God, for the same reason the Jewish leaders did, they can see it would involve a cross, if they were to follow the Word of God.

The priests and Pharisees thought they were doing great things as teachers by putting their own interpretation upon the word of God, but Christ said of them, "Ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God." Mark 12:24. He charged them with the guilt of "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Mark 7:7. Though they were the teachers of the oracles of God, though they were supposed to understand His word, they were not doers of the word. Satan had blinded their eyes that they should not see its true import.

This is the work of many in our day. Many churches are guilty of this sin. There is danger, great danger, that the supposed wise men of today will repeat the experience

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of the Jewish teachers. They falsely interpret the divine oracles, and souls are brought into perplexity and shrouded in darkness because of their misconception of divine truth.
The Scriptures need not be read by the dim light of tradition or human speculation. As well might we try to give light to the sun with a torch as to explain the Scriptures by human tradition or imagination. God's holy word needs not the torchlight glimmer of earth to make its glories distinguishable. It is light in itself--the glory of God revealed, and beside it every other light is dim.

God does not conceal His truth from men. By their own course of action they make it obscure to themselves. Christ gave the Jewish people abundant evidence that He was the Messiah; but His teaching called for a decided change in their lives. They saw that if they received Christ, they must give up their cherished maxims and traditions, their selfish, ungodly practices. It required a sacrifice to receive changeless, eternal truth. Therefore they would not admit the most conclusive evidence that God could give to establish faith in Christ. They professed to believe the Old Testament Scriptures, yet they refused to accept the testimony contained therein concerning Christ's life and character. They were afraid of being convinced lest they should be converted and be compelled to give up their preconceived opinions.

The treasure of the gospel, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, was among them, but they rejected the greatest gift that Heaven could bestow.

"Among the chief rulers also many believed on Him," we read; "but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue." John 12:42. They were convinced; they believed Jesus to be the Son of God; but it was not in harmony with their ambitious desires to confess Him. They had not the faith that would have secured for them the heavenly treasure. They were seeking worldly treasure.

And today men are eagerly seeking for earthly treasure. Their minds are filled with selfish, ambitious thoughts. For the sake of gaining worldly riches, honor, or power, they place the maxims, traditions, and requirements of men above the requirements of God. From them the treasures of His word are hidden.

Disobedience has closed the door to a vast amount of knowledge that might have been gained from the Scriptures. Understanding means obedience to God's commandments. The Scriptures are not to be adapted to meet the prejudice and jealousy of men. They can be understood only by those who are humbly seeking for a knowledge of the truth that they may obey it.

Do you ask, What shall I do to be saved? You must lay your preconceived opinions, your hereditary and cultivated ideas, at the door of investigation. If you search the Scriptures to vindicate your own opinions, you will never reach the truth. Search in order to learn what the Lord says. If conviction comes as you search, if you see that your cherished opinions are not in harmony with the truth, do not misinterpret the truth in order to suit your own belief, but accept the light given. Open mind and heart that you may behold wondrous things out of God's word.

 

the universal church incorporated all the old pagan religions under its umbrella, that's why it's called the universal church.

The pagan religions formed a single, catholic faith at Rome.

 

that's the reason we still keep the mythraic sunday and dec. 25 dates.

that's why we still keep the old resurrection customs of Attis, Osiris and Ishtar (pronounced Easter).

The Apostles kept none of this pagan stuff.


http://www2.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/sabbath_to_sunday/3.html

 

Greetings Wopick, You stated:

In what year did the these pagans form this faith in Rome? Who was in charge of the religion? What were some of their beliefs that differ from your opinion of christianity?

 

AS it turns out - the protestants were protesting the church of the "Holy Roman Empire" so "yes" the protestant denominations WERE started primarily by CATHOLIC founders.

As for England - the name of "Wycliff" comes to mind - a CATHOLIC theologian leading the way for the reformation even BEFORE Luther!

Knox, Calvin, Luther, Wycliff, Zwingli, Lefevre, Berquin in France, Menno Simons in Holland, Tausen in Denmark all trained by the RCC and most ordained as priests or having obtained the rank of theologian.

Then again - there is always the entire EASTERN ORTHODOX Church!...

EVERY church in existence today traces its founding BACK to those groups ALL of which were started by Catholic clergy or theologians.

And then the RCC has the nerve to pretend that any one SINGLE non-RC denomination must take on "responsibility" FOR ALL splits spawned by Catholicism in order to be non-Catolic "still". What a warpped sense of logic they use!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Wopick stated:

Hmm lets see what Catholics say ..

The Catholic historian Thomas Bokenkotter's best selling pro-Catholic work "a concise history of the Catholic church" makes it abundantly clear..

Ibid -Pg 49 speaks of the change that occurred in the 4th century

So there we have it on two short pages (49-50) of that telling work done by a Catholic historian - revealing the ongoing evolutionary process in the church that brings us to where we are today.

How much influence did this have on the RCC “really”?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Catholics of the 20th century publish the connection to paganism for the world to see and understand.

Pagan prayer methods.

..


Paganism missing a commandment

In Christ,

Bob

 

It has recently been pointed out on another thread that facts like this pagan connection - coming to light - merely makes some Catholics even more delighted with their church.

To each his own. As long as you are getting what you are looking for ...

I am just trying to make sure you have the light to make informed choices.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Greetings Bob,

That was all very nice but, I was looking for something more concrete. Such as some actual writings from the Christians of those days and prior to Constantine, not just some modern person person's opinion. What did the people like (Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome, Ireanaus, Justin etc..) believe. What did they teach about baptism and other doctrines in dispute among Christians of today?

 

Bob, you didn't mention any of the denominations cited in my post! Come on: was Methodism started by a Catholic? Was Pentecostalism?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Matt you didn't mention any of the reformers cited in my post.

Is it your claim that Wesley did not read from the works of the reformers?

Is it your claim that that the writings of Catholic reformers did not influence Wesley at all?

Is it your claim that Welsey would not have been born and trained as a Catholic EVEN without the Catholic reformers having set the stage for him?

Is it your claim that even without Wycliff the reformation would have started anyway and England would have broken away without any Catholic reformers exposing the errors of the RCC and perparing the people to re-think their loyalty to Rome?

In Christ,

Bob

 

I was just trying to point out the fact that the Roman Catholic experts on history "already" admit to this documented historic problem of paganism and the RCC.

In Christ,

Bob

 

As for Augustine...

The pagan influence on the early 3rd and 4th century church is as stated by the RC historians previously quoted.

In Christ,

Bob