The Holy Roman Catholic Church...

I didnt have any specific groups in mind.</font>[/QUOTE]Then how do you know they all agree?

Its a bit unusual for someone to actually ask that they be listed, since that is usually not necesarry, but...

Probably a good group would be...</font>[/QUOTE]So how did you determine that these particular doctrines are foundational? You do realize that there are many Christians today who disagree with the extent of your criteria--some list more, some less. How do we know who's listing correctly all the essential foundational doctrines? Also, for the first 1500 years some of your criteria aren't even on the Church's radar screen (I'll give examples below)

True, but until the time of Zwingli, Christians understood this to take place during water baptism. (In fact there are even non-Catholic Christians that believe that today) Were they all wrong? Or was it that none of them were "evangelical"?

Yet the "faith alone" part is not spelled out in the Bible. In fact the Bible teaches that we are not justified by faith alone (James 2:24). This doctrine (sola fide) wasn't taught until the Reformation. Are you really suggesting that for 1500 years Christians got this wrong, too? Or was it that there were no "evangelical" Christians (by your definition) before this time? I guess you can say they were wrong--if you're willing to read your anachronistic interpretations back into Scripture--but that's a risky proposition.

Not only was sola Scriptura not taught during the first 15 centuries of Christendom, where is this doctrine even spelled out in Scripture? The fact that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura has spawned countless divisions (since no one can seem to agree what Scripture is exactly saying*) should also raise a red flag.

[*except that theirs is the correct Holy Spirit guided interpretation]

There are many Christians (including not a few Protestants) that believe that baptism is foundational to Christianity as it plays a key role in Salvation, and such a belief can be traced back to the apostles.

There are many Christians (even some Protestants) that believe the real presence in the Eucharist is foundational to Christianity, and they can trace this doctrine back to the apostles as well.


So how is it again that the evangelical world knows (and agrees upon) what the foundational doctrines of Christianity are? Unless your definition of who is an "evangelical" is restricted to who believes like you do.

 

Doubting Thomas,

It was said...

I then said...

And you now say...

Thats why God never tells us to pick a group and let them spoon feed us truth. Thats cultic.

God said that He is our Father, not a group of men. God said He is our teacher, not a group of men.

No.

But none of us have perfct hearing

And particularly not those who claim they do.

(Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, the Catholic Church, Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc)

Interesting, isnt it? The ones claiming they have a truth pipeline from God are the ones most grieviously drowning in falsehood, heresy, idolatry and bad teaching.

With sadness,

Mike

 

The Godly Catholic reformers and the Catholic church "differed" and so we have the Protestants.

But non-Catholic churchh "A" is not responsible for the errors contained in the Catholic church AND IS NOT responsible for any error found in non-Catholic Church "B".

This simple fact - always seems to come as a big surprise to Catholics.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Doubting Thomas...

Regarding different groups...

They dont agree on everything. But when it comes to the things I listed, these truths are so strongly emphasised int the scriptures that if someone is born of the Spirit, their understanding will be opened to these things.

We didnt. God did.

Maybe not the *organised* church. But for about that same amount of time the *organised* church was apostate.

Regarding being born again, you said...

All christians? Or *some* christians? Or just those in the *organised* hiearchial body that was apostate?

You have no way of knowing the heart convictions of every single one of Gods Spirit born children during any extended, or even short, period of time. I can assure you, Gods actual Spirit born people have always been able to hear the voice of their Shepherd, as He teaches them.

"My sheep hear my voice. They know it...and the voice of a stranger they will not follow"

We are all in agreement regarding the fact that we "must be born again" to be saved.

Regarding the truth of justification through faith alone, you said...

It would be impossible for God to spell that truth out any more clearly. That truth is THUNDERED from the scriptures.

"Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be abased, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." ( Luke 18:9-14)


"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Rom 3:21-26).

Fot it is by grace that you are saved, through faith, and that not of yourself, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast"(Ephesians 2: 8-9)

"For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace, but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness" (Rom 4:3-5).

And this is a classic example of the old "tip of the iceberg" saying. God goes on and on and on regarding this truth.

No, the Catholic Church...in order to perpetuate its false gospel of works...likes to present that misunderstanding from the book of James as if it were truth.

It doesnt make an once of difference what the "professing" organised "church" taught for all that time. The professing organised church was in full blown apostacy.

And you have no ability to discern the personal heart attitude towards these things that existed in the hearts of all of Gods actual born again people during those years.

It is thundered from the scriptures just as overwhelmingly as justification through faith alone is.

1st of all...their is only one body of Christ on earth. Only one "church". That church is everyone who is born again. Period. Nothing more...nothing less. The "oneness" of Christs body has nothing to do with everyone being a part of the same hieachial organised religious group.

2ndly, the protestant world is no more divided than the Catholic Church is. We simply admit it rather than lie to people and say we arent.(If you would like I'll prove that to you)

God told us to expect it, and he told us how to handle it...

"Let your brother be convinced in his own mind...who are you to judge your brother?"

The scriptures make them clear to us.

It isnt.

God bless,

Mike

 

Thats why God never tells us to pick a group and let them spoon feed us truth. Thats cultic. </font>[/QUOTE]Okay...how can several individuals who have conflicting interpretations all claim that theirs is the Holy Spirit's interpretation?

Then why does God ordain "teachers" in His Church, if He alone is our teacher? And why do you seem create a false dichotomy between Christ and His Church? Is not the Church a "group of men"? Yet if one doesn't listen to the Church are they not to be considered as the heathen and tax collectors? (Matt 18:17) And isn't this same "group of men" (the Church) the "fullness of Him who fills all in all" (Ephesians 1:22-23) and the "ground and pillar of the truth"(1 Timothy 3:15)? Are not the apostles, who are the foundation of the Church (Eph 2:20), a "group of men" to whom Christ gave the authority to "bind and loose" (Matt 18:18) and to whom Christ said: "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects me"( Luke 10:16)? (Or why bother with the Church at all if it's "just-me-and-Jesus"?)

No.

But none of us have perfct hearing</font>[/QUOTE]Admitting you don't have perfect "hearing", how do you know that your "hearing" is even better than others, and that you are thus in a better position to judge what are the true Christian essentials than those whose Scriptural interpretations conflict with yours?

On what basis do you determine what is "falsehood, heresy,...and bad teaching"? Your private interpretation of Scripture? You man want to check out what the Apostle Peter said: "no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation" (2 Peter 1:21) How is it then that you presume to know what is heresy and what isn't if: (1) you don't see the need to let a "group of men" (the Church) teach you, and (2) you can't give an objective reason why your "spiritual hearing" is better than others (and thus your private interpretation is better than others) who have conflicting interpretations?

 

We didnt. God did.</font>[/QUOTE]Yet other Christians have disagreed with some of the "essentials" on your list and have with just as much conviction proclaimed other doctrines to be foundational. Has God determined contradictory foundational doctrines?

Maybe not the *organised* church. But for about that same amount of time the *organised* church was apostate.</font>[/QUOTE]But how do you know this without resorting to your own subjective interpretation?

All christians? Or *some* christians? Or just those in the *organised* hiearchial body that was apostate?</font>[/QUOTE]Again how do you know the "organized" body was apostate other than your subjective definition of what constitutes "apostacy"?

Then how come God's "Spirit born people" have some conflicting beliefs on some fundamental doctrines and are thus not in communion together? Is Christ divided?

We are all in agreement regarding the fact that we "must be born again" to be saved.</font>[/QUOTE]Yet we don't agree on how this takes place. Don't you think that's important, especially if one has an incorrect notion of how one is born again? That could have eternal consequences.

No, the Catholic Church...in order to perpetuate its false gospel of works...likes to present that misunderstanding from the book of James as if it were truth.</font>[/QUOTE]Actually, you seem to have the misunderstanding. James says quite clearly: "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone". None of the passages you cited state we are justified by "faith alone". Therefore, you seem to be the one misinterpreting what God has actually "THUNDERED FORTH" from Scripture.

It doesnt make an once of difference what the "professing" organised "church" taught for all that time. The professing organised church was in full blown apostacy. </font>[/QUOTE]Again, you're begging the question. There is no documentation of anyone sharing this novel belief (Sola Sciptura) for the first 1500 years of the Church, and yet its' the Church that's "apostate"?

It is thundered from the scriptures just as overwhelmingly as justification through faith alone is. </font>[/QUOTE]Ummm....nope.

1st of all...their is only one body of Christ on earth. Only one "church". That church is everyone who is born again. Period. Nothing more...nothing less. The "oneness" of Christs body has nothing to do with everyone being a part of the same hieachial organised religious group.</font>[/QUOTE]The problem is your notion of what the church--some invisible entity of those for are "actually" born again (however you think that may happen) was foreign to the early Christians. The world can't see some invisible entity, but Christ said the world may believe the Father has sent Him when the Church is one (John17:21). This means a visible organized unity.

I believe this had more to do with eating meat than foundational Christian beliefs.

The scriptures make them clear to us.</font>[/QUOTE]Yet Christians looking at the same Scriptures disagree with what exactly these foundational doctrines are.

It isnt.</font>[/QUOTE]Well, that's good to know.

 

I guess as long as D28Guy does not threaten to "exterminate all who differ" in that area above - he will be one step ahead of the RCC in Lateran IV.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Doubting Thomas,

Regarding non-essentials? We have freedom. The Holy Spirit is probably working in the hearts of both parties who disagree, in bringing fruitful truth to both. We "let our brother be fully convinced in his own mind", as the scriptures admonish us to do. We love our brother, discuss, listen, argue...but let him have his convictions. "iron sharpens iron".

Because many have been gifted in that way by the Holy Spirit.That is one of the "Gifts of the Spirit" and one of the ways God teaches us. Sometimes through good teachers, sometimes through the word of God alone. Sometimes through good reputable written teaching. Lots of ways. I thought I made that clear when I spoke of the different radio broadcasts and different magazines and literature I spend time with. Nothing wrong with any of that. But we are to never go "cultic" and unquestioningly let one group or teacher be the supposedly innerant "mouthpiece of God" for us.

We enter cultland at that point. We consider what good bible believing teachers have to offer, but no further. God is ultimetly our teacher

Regarding non-essentials? It might not be all the time. I've been a born again person for 23 years this month, and I have done a lot of *adjusting* and *fine tuning* regarding my understanding of truth. Thats 100% normal for a child of God. For the rest of our time down here we are all "seeing through a glass dimly", while looking forward to the time we "see as we are seen"

The word of God.

And the way the Catholic Church savagely butchers that passage of scripture for their own gain is as much a crime as how they butcher the passage in James...which does not in the least contradict justification through faith alone.

God bless,

Mike

 

jcf,

The scriptures clearly proclaim that there is one God. The scriptures clearly proclaim the Father as being God. The scriptures clearly proclaim Jesus Christ is God. The scriptures clearly proclaim the Holy Spirit is God. The scriptures also proclaim that Jesus Christ was a human being.

The scriptures also make abundantly clear that these 3 beings who make up the one God interact with one another, respond to one another, and communicate with one another, indicating that they are in one sense seperate, yet still being one God, not 3.

These are simply proclaimations of truth regarding who God is.

God Bless,

Mike

 

jcf,

You know what I meant...and its what the scriptures proclaim.

Mike

 

Because its only those 3 who are identified as being God.

Jesus Christ, the Father, and the Holy Spirit.

Moses is not identified as being God. Neither are people who proclaim the word or angels.

This is not rocket science.

Mike

 

jcf,

Here is an excerpt that might be of benefit to you. A link to the whole thing will follow...

"1. There is only one God:

Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are known as the big three monotheistic religions. You won’t find many arguments among Muslims, Jews, and Christians that there is more than one God, except perhaps among some aberrant sects. Nevertheless, let us establish this Scripturally before we move on to areas where disagreements will arise.

A. There is only one God:

“You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.” – Deuteronomy 4:35
"This is what the LORD says- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.” – Isaiah 44:6
Other Old Testament Verses: Deut. 4:39; 32:39; 2 Sam. 22:32; Isa. 37:20; 43:10; 44:6-8; 45:5, 14, 21-22; 46:9.
“How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?” – John 5:44
“…since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.” Romans 3:30
Other New Testament Verses: Rom. 16:27; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Gal. 3:20; Eph. 4:6, 1 Tim. 1:17; 2:5; James 2:19; Jude 25.

B. There is only one true God:

“But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath.” – Jeremiah 10:10
“We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true--even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.” – 1 John 5:20.
Other verses: 2 Chron. 15:3; John 17:3; 1 Thess. 1:9.

C. All other so-called “gods” are false gods.
“For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the LORD made the heavens.” – Psalm 96:5
“So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one.” – 1 Corinthians 8:4
Other verses: Deut. 32:21; 1 Sam. 12:21; Isa. 37:19; 41:23-24, 29; Jer. 2:11; 5:7; 16:20; 1 Cor. 10:19-20.

The verses above are clear evidence that there is only one God. This is known as monotheism. Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are known as the three great monotheistic religions. However, Islam and Judaism will fall off as we continue our support of the Trinity.

2. There is a plurality to God.

The Hebrew word for God is el in its singular form. The most common form used for God is elohim, which is plural in form. How can there be plural form used for only one God? Some suggest that the answer is found in the three persons of the Trinity. Others contend that the plural construct denotes a fullness of deity as opposed to plurality. I submit that both interpretations are correct. I’m getting ahead of myself now though. Rather than look at all the verses that use the plural elohim, let’s look at other verses that point to a plurality within the one God.
“Let us make man in our image” – Genesis 1:26, emphasis added.
“God said, ‘Behold, the man has become like one of us…’” – Genesis 3:22, emphasis added.
Some would say that God could be speaking to the angels in these verses, but that's simply not correct. God was speaking to co-creator(s) in these verses (“Let us make man…”). Who could be a co-creator? Not the angels. The answer is found later in this article.

3. The Father is God.

This isn’t really an item that is in question. While God the Father is only known as the Father in the New Testament, Christians, Jews, Muslims, and pseudo-Christian cults understand that the Father in the New Testament is the Yahweh of the Old Testament, though some disagree with the characterization of “Father”. However, it is important to establish that the Father of the New Testament is the true God referred to in the Old Testament, known often as Yahweh, or “Jehovah”.[3]

A. The Father is God.

“Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,” – 2 Corinthians 1:3
“Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.” – Ephesians 1:3
Other verses: John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 1 Peter 1:3; (Note: Some verses seem to indicate that Jesus is not God at first glance. These will be explained later).

B. The God of the Old Testament is known as Yahweh/Jehovah (“The LORD”).

“You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other…. Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.” – Deuteronomy 4:35, 39.[4]
“Know that the LORD is God. It is he who made us, and we are his; we are his people, the sheep of his pasture.” – Psalm 100:3
Other verses: Gen. 9:26; 24; Exo. 3:14-18; 4:5; 2 Sam. 7:22, 25.

From the verses above, it is clear that Yahweh/Jehovah in the Old Testament is the one God. It is also clear that the Father in the New Testament is that one God. Now, let’s look at whether Jesus Christ is God. Remember, there is only one God. There is also a mysterious plurality to this one God. We have established that the Father is Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament. We now explore the plurality in the one true God.

4. Jesus is God.

There is a great deal of Scriptural evidence that Jesus Christ is God. The evidence is comprised not only of specific statements, but also in prophecy fulfillment and his attributes. Let’s first look at some of explicit Scriptural evidence. In this section, we won’t limit ourselves to only giving the text of two verses.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.” – John 1:1
“Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’” – John 20:28

I want to pause just a moment to discuss the verses above. The Greek word for God is theos. In John 1:1, we read that the Word (Jesus) was with theos and was indeed theos. Jesus was (and is) God! This is a very powerful statement! The word theos is used not only in John 1:1, but also in verse 18 and in John 20:28. Theos is used in the New Testament in reference to Jehovah/Yahweh God. Theos is also used in reference to Jesus. We’re beginning to see the plurality found within the one God.
"You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being." – Revelation 4:11 (the words of the 24 elders to Jesus).
“…Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” – Acts 20:28
Once again, in the verses above Jesus is referred to as theos. In Acts 20:28, we know that Jesus shed His blood for the church, and as one person of the triune God, this action is the action of God. Now let’s look at some common compound references to Jesus:
“…the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” – Titus 2:13
“…To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours” – 2 Peter 1:1
In the passages above, both “God” and “Savior” are used in reference to Jesus Christ. There is no division of the clause. Scholar Robert Reymond writes, “The two nouns [‘God’ and ‘Savior’] both stand under the regimen of the single definitive article preceding ‘God,’ indicating…that they are to be construed corporately, not separately, or that they have a single referent.”[5] In other words, attempts to divide this clause into a reference to God and a separate reference to Jesus as Savior flies against the Greek grammatical construct. These verses provide additional powerful and clear evidence that Jesus is Jehovah/Yahweh God. Let’s now turn our attention to more verses that reveal Jesus to be Jehovah/Yahweh.
“That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved…. for, ‘Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’” – Romans 10:9,13. Note: Paul reveals Jesus to be the same “Lord” referred to in Joel 2:32, which he quotes. In Joel 2:32, “LORD” is Jehovah/Yahweh.
“…that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” – Philippians 2:10-11. Note: “Lord” = Jehovah/Yahweh.
“…now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.” – 1 Peter 2:3. This verse is taken almost identically from Psalms 34:8, where “Lord” is Jehovah/Yahweh. From the verses that follow verse 3, it is clear this is a reference to Jesus.
Another way we know that Jesus is Jehovah/Yahweh comes from the fulfillment of an Old Testament prophecy. Zechariah 12:10 says, “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.” This verse is part of an oracle given by Jehovah/Yahweh. This passage starts off in verse 1, “This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares…” Jehovah/Yahweh prophesies that He will be pierced. It is widely accepted among scholarly circles that this was fulfilled in the crucifixion and spearing of Jesus Christ. This is confirmed in Revelation 1:7 wherein we read concerning Jesus, “Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.” This is important enough to go over again. In Zechariah 12:10, Jehovah/Yahweh prophesies that He (Jehovah/Yahweh) will be pierced, and people will mourn for Him. Jesus Christ is pierced through his hands and feet at his crucifixion, and pierced through the side with a spear while on the cross. Revelation 1:7 confirms this fulfillment of prophecy. Conclusion? Jesus Christ is Jehovah/Yahweh!
Another evidence that Jesus is Jehovah/Yahweh comes from His role as Savior. Isaiah 43:11 says, “I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.” Yet Jesus is referred to many times in the New Testament as our Savior (Luke 2:11; John 4:42; Acts 13:23; Eph. 5:23; Phi. 3:20; 1 Tim. 1:1; 2 Tim. 1:10; Tit 1:4; 2:13; 3:6; 2 Pet. 1:1,11; 2:20; 3:2,18; 1 John 4:14).

Jesus caused no small uproar among the Jews of the day because He accepted praise and worship – blasphemous if He were not God! As we have seen, only God is the savior of men. Matthew 21:1-11 describes Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem. He came riding in on a donkey, in fulfillment of an Old Testament messianic prophecy (Zec. 9:9). As Jesus rode in, we find the crowds that surrounded him shouting “Hosanna to the Son of David!” “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!” “Hosanna in the highest!” Webster’s 1913 dictionary defined Hosanna as “A Hebrew exclamation of praise to the Lord.” The word is derived from a Hebrew word that meant “Save us,” in a prayer directed to God. This shows that the crowd viewed Jesus as God and Savior. It is important to note that Jesus did not rebuke the crowd for this praise. In verse 15, we find that the chief priests and Pharisees were outraged and indignant at this (because, as we said, this would be blasphemy for a mere man). Children had followed Jesus in to the temple are and were still shouting, “Hosanna to the Son of David!” In verse 16, they asked Jesus if He could hear what the children were saying. No doubt they were shocked that he would not have straightened out the blasphemy of these little urchins. But Jesus did not rebuke the children. Instead, He answered, “Yes. Have you never read, ‘From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise’?” Additionally, in John 9:35-39 we read the following exchange:
35Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?"
36"Who is he, sir?" the man asked. "Tell me so that I may believe in him."
37Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you."
38Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him. [emphasis added]
39Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."
Jesus accepted worship. This is not adoration of a mere prophet, but praise and worship due only to God. Jesus was either God or He was crazy, and there is ample evidence against the latter and in support of the former. Further evidence comes from the fact that Jesus has many of the attributes of God:
Creator (John 1:3, 1 Cor. 8:6; Col 1:16-17; Heb. 1:2; Rev. 3:14)
Unchanging (Heb. 1:10-12; 13:8)
Eternal (John 1:1; 8:58; 17:5; Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:2)
Omniscient (John 16:30)
Omnipresent (Matt. 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; Eph. 1:23; 4:10; Col. 3:11)
It is clear from the Scriptural evidence above that Jesus is God. He is the LORD (Jehovah/Yahweh) of the Old Testament, and therefore is the one true elohim or theos. He shares this role as God with the Father. As we are about to see, He also shares this role with the Holy Spirit.

5. The Holy Spirit is God

Less Scripture is dedicated to the Holy Spirit, but there is enough to conclude that He too is God. In Acts 5:3-4, we see the Holy Spirit being equated with God:
“Then Peter said, ‘Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.’” [emphasis added]
Paul clearly and explicitly equated the Holy Spirit with God:
“Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.” – 2 Corinthians 3:17-18
Additional evidence of the deity of the Holy Spirit comes from the shared attributes of the deity. The Holy Spirit is:
Eternal (Heb. 9:14)
Omniscient (1 Cor. 2:10-11)
Omnipresent (Psa. 139:7)
Savior (Rom. 8:1-27)
In addition to the attributes above, we find the Holy Spirit was involved in creation (Gen. 1:2; Psa. 104:30), the incarnation (Matt. 1:18,20; Luke 1:35), and the resurrection (Rom. 1:4; 8:11). This is ample evidence to show that the Holy Spirit is God. We have now proven Scripturally that there is only one God. We have also proven that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit can each lay claim to being God. However, one can believe in all this, and still subscribe to the erroneous belief of modalism.
Modalists believe that there is only one God, but believe God to be comprised of one Person who simply manifests Himself at different times through Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. In other words, modalists believe that God is one in substance as well as essence – the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not distinct persons. As we shall see, modalism fails because the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are indeed three distinct persons.

6. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons.

A. Jesus is not the Father: First, let’s turn our attention to Matthew 28:19, “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”. The grammatical construction of this verse is very revealing with regards to Trinitarian doctrine. First, each person of the Trinity is identified individually with use of the definite article preceding each (the Father…the Son…the Holy Spirit). The use of the definite article for each person of the Trinity identifies each as unique and distinct from the others. Yet at the same time, this verse groups each into a singular entity by use of the singular form “the name of”. What is this name? The singular name of God is Yahweh/Jehovah, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit share that name. Other verses identify the Father and the Son as two separate persons (John 3:17, 35; 5:22-23, 31-32; 8:16-18; 11:41-42; 12:28; 14:31; 17:1-26; Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:3; 15:24-28; 2 Cor. 1:2; Gal. 1:3; 4:4; Eph. 1:2; 6:23; Phil. 1:2; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:1-2; 1 Tim. 1:1-2; 2 Tim. 1:2; Tit. 1:4; Phm. 3; James 1:1; 2 Pet. 1:2; 1 John 4:10; 2 John 3).

Hope that helps,

Mike

 

Ooops, I forgot the link...

http://www.contenderministries.org/biblestudy/trinity.php

Mike

 

jcf,

Thats not what I said. I said that angels, Moses, and people who proclaim the gospel have not been identified in the scriptures as being God.

The Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit have been identified in the scriptures as being God.

I hope you will spend some time with the post after the one you quoted from. It is flooded with scriptures.

Mike

 

Regarding non-essentials? We have freedom. </font>[/QUOTE]But you have yet to prove that these conflicts are only regarding the "non-essentials." We have freedom regarding non-essentials such as eating meat or drinking wine, not doctrines that proclaim essential truth about God, Christ, and salvation. Yet it's in these latter areas (particularly the last one) that Christians disagree.

Because many have been gifted in that way by the Holy Spirit.That is one of the "Gifts of the Spirit" and one of the ways God teaches us.</font>[/QUOTE]So there is not a dichotomy between being "taught by God" and being taught by the men He ordains.

Even if that group is the Church which is "the ground and pillar of the truth"?(I Timothy 3:15) Remember, one who refuses the hear the Church is to be regarded as a heathen or a tax collector" (Matt 18:18)

But how do you determine who the "good bible believing teachers" are other than your subjective interpretation of the Bible? Again claiming "Holy Spirit" guidance won't do since folks who disagree with you--even on what you consider to be "essential"--also claim Holy Spirit guidance in their interpretations.

The word of God. </font>[/QUOTE]Yet other Christians using the same word of God consider some your particular views heretical, including your belief in justification by faith alone. (And it's risky to relegate this to one of the "non-essentials"

And the way the Catholic Church savagely butchers that passage of scripture for their own gain is as much a crime as how they butcher the passage in James...which does not in the least contradict justification through faith alone.</font>[/QUOTE]Which is an incredible statement since James 2:24 says verbatim: "Man is justified by works and not by faith alone." The only place in the Bible which has phrase "faith alone" specifically denies that we are justified in this way. Conversely, none of the passages you cited earlier prove Sola Fide.

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The bottom line is with only your subjective interpretation how can you definitively tell the modern day Arians, Sabellians, and Ebionites that theirs is the wrong interpretation? An example is the discussion you are having with "jcf" (whose views on Christ resemble the old Ebionite heresy) in which you are arguing from Scripture to support the Trinity and he is arguing otherwise from the same Scriptures. (Are not the nature of God and deity of Christ "essentials?" )
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Well, time to go spend time with the family. God bless.

 

In the list you gave - you include Satan and the evil Pharoah. Is THIS the "kind of god" you claim Mary to be??

Aside from the title given to Satan (as an ACTUAL title in the form "god of this world") - Did you find any place else where a TITLE is given of the form "Mother of GOD" - specifically to MARY??

No?

Hmm. How "instructive".

In Christ,

Bob