The Holy Roman Catholic Church...

Matt,

Just curious, what do you do with all of the huge disagreements, all of the splinter groups, and factions, and different "schools of thought" that exist in the Catholic Church?

Mike

 

Matt Black

I made a mistake in my longer of the 2 postes I have posted to you tonight.

I referred to the Popes kissing of the Qu'ran and calling all of those false religionists his "spiritual brothers", and you agreed that what he said and did was problematic.

I then said...

I meant to say...

You are the 1st Catholic I have encountered who agrees that the Pope was in error regarding the unimaginalbe actions and words of his at the Assisi prayer gatherings.

Thats why I "tipped my hat" to you.

Sorry about that.

Mike

 

If I attempted to post them all I would be here 2 hours from now still posting. That truth is thundered from the scriptures.</font>[/QUOTE]Matt, I wouldn't be holding your breath waiting on this one. He posted a bunch of Scriptures before (in this same thread in fact), but none of them said that we are justified by faith alone. There's only one place in Scripture that has the phrase "faith alone" and justification in the same passage, and we all know what it says.

Which brings us to....

The book of James does not contradict justification through faith alone in the least. </font>[/QUOTE]Which is pretty laughable, Matt, since at least you and I can read what the verse says quite clearly: "You see then that man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24)

Matt, what's truly mind boggling is that there are folks like Mike that can with (presumably straight face) claim that James 2:24 does not contradict justification by faith alone when it's quite clear that it does so. If anyone's mangling James 2:24 it's certainly not the Catholic and others who recognize what the passage (and indeed Scripture) is truly saying.

Matt, I think that some have been so indoctrinated into 16th century traditions of men to be reasoned with, either from Scripture or logic. (I know I was for most my life)

Selah

 

This is a very childish post, and something that Catholics resort to often. What is it? You don't believe in synonyms? Or you don't understand English grammar enough to discern what it is saying. I posted an exposition of Eph.2:8,9 that even Logan seemed to agree with. You can't get around that text.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It says that salvation is by faith alone, but only if you understand English and its various synonyms, and grammatical structures. Or is this beyond you? Do you have to have the exact words: "faith alone" in the KJV to satisfy you? A little childish, don't you think?

Study the first five verses of Romans 4. You will have to come to the same conclusion if you are honest with yourselves--that salvation is by faith alone.
DHK

 

I tell you what--why don't you study all of your proof texts in context of Paul's writings as a whole and in the context that would have made sense to first century Christians. Read and study the entire book of Romans and see what else Paul had to say about works (esp. works of the Law distinguished from works of love) and grace and faith, and indeed what the rest of apostles and even Christ Himself says. If you are honest with yourself, you'll agree that man is justified by works and not by faith alone (just as James says!); that faith without works is dead (James 2:17, 20); that we must add things to faith in order to ensure our entrance into the Kingdom (2 Peter 1:5-11); that those who work what is good get Eternal life and does who work what is evil condemnation (John 5:29; Romans 2:5-10); that what matters is not circumcision or uncircumcision but faith working through love (Gal 5:6); and that if we don't continue in the faith we too can be cut off (Romans 11:22). (That is, of course, unless you'd rather stick to your usual childish tactic of accusing those who disagree with your selective interpretations as "making Christ out to be a liar")

It is ironic that the Apostle Peter, who warned the recipients of his second letter not to twist Paul's writings to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:15-16) also had this to say in the same letter:

"But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perserverance, to perserverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:5, 10-11)

Also if Paul really meant his statements to be "synonyms" for "faith alone", he could have written so specifically. Instead, he did not see fit to do so, for that would contradict what else he taught on the matter:

"who 'will render to each one according to their deeds': eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor and immortality....but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good." Romans 2:6-7, 10

Selah

[ March 05, 2005, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Doubting Thomas ]

 

In one of my posts I refuted everyone of those of verses. They fall either into one of two categories. Most of them fall into the one category of verses that speak to Christians and the rewards that they will gain in Heaven. We are to run the race (as Christians). That has nothing whatsoever with salvation or losing salvation. Once we have salvation we cannot lose it. It would be a direct contradiction of the term "eternal" and would make Jesus Christ a liar. We do good works not for salvation, but for reward in heaven. Most of those verses speak to that end.

One of those passages deal directly with the nation of Israel and has no bearing on us whatsoever--talking about taking Scripture out of context.
Likewise with the Book of James--taking Scripture out of context--the context of the book.

The passage in 2Peter is speking to Christians very obviously to grow in grace. It has nothing to do with losing ones salvation which is impossible to do, and Peter doesn't even suggest that it is.

In 2Peter 3, he speaks of those that are already unsaved. This is the second group. An unsaved person can't lose that which he never had in the first place. He can't lose salvation if he never had it. He is speaking of false teachers. It would be good to read the context here wouldn't it.
DHK

 

You refuted them in your mind perhaps, but based on your statements in this paragraph you have interpreted these verses completely out of context! The Romans 2 passage clearly states that it's eternal life (not mere "rewards" in heaven) that is given to those who patiently continue to work what is good, and the 2 Peter 1 passage it's an entrance into Christ's kingdom (not "rewards") that is given to those who diligently add those things listed to their faith. You err in woefully misconstruing those passages (and many others) since you've assumed that salvation can't be lost and refuse to see the clear evidence to the contrary.

You have also yet to grasp the simple concept that life is eternal because that life is found in Christ. If one doesn't continue in faith in Christ, he will be cut off from the source of eternal life (Romans 11:22; John 15:6).

Yeah, the context is that faith without works is dead and a dead "faith" can't save. It's plain as day--man is justified by works and not by faith alone.(James 2:24)

No, he's clearly stating that those who do those things will make their election sure and have an entrance supplied to them into the kingdom. As far as is being "impossible" to lose one's salvation you are clearly begging the question and contradicting the true teaching of numerous other Scriptures.

Yes, it would be good to read the context since 2 Peter 2:20-22 teaches that the false teachers had salvation then lost it.

 

DHK,

It is, and they do resort to it regularly.

They simply dont have any choice. They are in the exceedingly difficult position of defending the indefensible.

What they believe is rooted in the devilish error that the "Teaching Majesterium" of the Catholic Church is supernaturally protected from error by God. Its the identical lie that the JW's, Mormons, Christian Science people, David Koresh and Jim Jones convince their victims of.

Have you ever heard Jehovahs Wittnesses attempt to explain away all the various failed dates of the "end of time" that the Watchtower has set? Listening to them attempt to explain them away would be funny if it werent so pathetically sad.

Same with the Catholics. They believe what they believe because Rome tells them to.

To the Catholic, the "Teaching Majesterium"...supposedly...interprets the scriptures inerrantly...and all Catholics are to submit.

So they must defend the indefensible.

We have literally hundreds of scriptures that make clear as the driven snow that we are justified through faith alone, and that God has cursed the satanic lie of works justification.

And so, these dear one have no choice. They must turn a blind eye to the truth and play "I see nothing! I hear nothing!" to truckloads of scriptures...literally hundreds...that proclaim justification through faith alone.

Then, they are forced to twist, torture, mangle and butcher the scriptures to force the book of James appear to teach justification through works.

Because Rome commands them to.

In spite of the fact that James supports beautifully justification through faith alone, and Almighty God has placed His CURSE on any "works justification" false gospel.

Its pitiful and saddening almost beyond comprehension.

They have been rendered unable to see these things do to the programming of Rome...and these dear ones willingness to submit themselves to it

But they do. They ignore it...or mangle, twist, and butcher the scriptures in order to maintain Romes role as their truth interpreter...even if what Rome propagates is a devilish lie.

Its nothing less then staggering.

Very sadly,

Mike

 

Here are several of the scriptures that support the truth that we are justified through faith alone.

If any Catholics feel like it, I present these scriptures to be mangled, twisted, and butchered...

"John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."

Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"

Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"

Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."

Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."

Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."

Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."

Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."

Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

How this can be missed is mind boggling...and so very sad.

But I understand why its happening.

Mike

 

And the beat goes on...

So tell me, Mike, how many of those passages you cited say that it's by "faith alone"? ZERO.

We've been through this before earlier in the thread and I pointed out several examples showing that:

(1)In no place does it say we are justified by faith alone
(2)You fail to mention what kind of faith "saves"--it's not a faith without works since that kind of faith is dead (James 2); it's only a faith that works through love that avails anything (Gal 5:6)
(3)You and DHK cannot grasp the obvious distinction that the apostles make between the works of the Law and the works of loving obedience, the latter by which we are to demonstrate and work out our faith. We're not saved by works (referring to the former sense), but we are certainly not saved without them either (referring to the latter sense).
(4) That they are plenty of positive Scriptural teaching to the contrary--that works of love are necessary. (Romans 2:5-10; 2 Peter 1:5-11). The only response I've got is a rather flippant dismisal based on a haphazard disregard for for the context of the passages I pointed out.

Instead of going through all this again, I'm not going to waste my time because it's clear that you can only interpret Scriptures based on certain a priori assumptions birthed in the 16th century and absent from the consensus of Church teaching during the first millenium. Your Romaphobia (and some of that is certainly justified) has blinded you to some very basic Scriptural truth. This I find very SAD.

By the way I'm not a RC nor under the authority of the Roman magisterium. I'm merely pointing out your errors as you selectively interpret Scripture and ignore and mangle other passages, perhaps to your own destruction.

 

#1. You can never "refute scripture verses".
#2. IF you find the "need" to do it - there could be something wrong.

#3. IF you prefer to think that the NT is only speaking of "the amount of money you get in heaven" -- (i.e. the size of the reward) then you need to be careful to "show" that IN the context of each of these "how much gold-do-I-get" suppositions. Show that the text clearly and yes even explicitly references it.

Failure to do so would be eisegesis at worst and (wishful thinking at best)and so it wont convince someone who objects to inserting the limit into the text. A limit that is of the form "this text is just about how much future gold will go in my pocket" - has to be based on context IN the text, the chapter, the author's words etc.

--------------------------------------
Having said that --


The Title of this thread is "The Holy Roman Catholic Church".

It is misdirection to turn this into a dicussion about whether OSAS is correct - since there are non-Catholic groups that reject OSAS and since the Arminian system itself is fundamentally opposed to the idea - though many Arminians try to hold on to both at once.

For the sake of the thread we should focus on those things that are "uniquely" Roman Catholic.

The Inquisition.
"Extermination" as stated in Lateran IV
Purgatory
Indulgences
The Worship of Mary
(Praying to "the dead in Christ". Those mentioned in 1Thess 4)
Infallible claims for the Pope
The claim to change/make God's Laws
...


The list is so long - and so blantantly and uniquely Catholic that it is truly the "low hanging fruit".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Just to hand DT a point.

Here is a clear reference to Gospel "Justification".

And here is a clear reference to the what a person does. (no escaping that).

In Matt 7 Christ makes the same argument before the Cross that Paul makes after the cross in Romans 2.

Shall we believe the Gospel account in Matt 7? Shall we trust in the text of Romans 2? ARe they "real" warnings?

Are they "valid" statements for us to heed as Christians today?

If not then how did these sections of scripture get deleted?

If so - then we are on shakey ground to focus on this point as the big difference between Catholics and non-Catholics.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,
Good posts.

 

DHK said...

And I then said...

And...

Doubting Thomas now says...

Point...set...match.

I rest my case.

It boggles the mind.

Mike

By the way, DT...

The answer is...all of them.

 

BobRyan,

The fruit...or evidence...that a born again person has in fact been regenerated will be inevitable...and will include what can be referred to as "good works"

It is impossible for that to not occur. But the fruit...in all its forms...is as a result of the justification that has occured through faith, and that is faith alone.

God feels strongly enough about this that He places His curse upon any justification theology that incudes works as being necesarry to attain justification.

The "curse" of the Catholic Church means absolutly nothing to anyone, ouside of those whose being cursed resulted in their being exterminated. Other than that, the Cathilc Churchs cursing mean nothing, except showing what they truly believe.

The curse of Almighty God is infinetly more important that we avoid.

Mike

 

Sirach,

I've had strong convictions regarding the Catholic Church ever since I was actually born of the Spirit at age 25 and left for evangelicalism. This was after having spent my 1st 24 years growing up in the Catholic Church. I finally had "eyes that see" and I saw the church for what it is...and organisation that preaches a false gospel, condemns the true gospel, teaches an incredible amount of false teaching, and engages in, and promotes, blatant idolatry in areas like the "sacrifice" of the mass and the worship of a devilish counterfiet Mary whom they have invented and are passing off as the Mary of the scriptures.

The interesting thig is that I had my understanding opened to these things immedietly after being born again, but some things were rather vague. It was when I took the time to dig into the Catholic sources themselvs that my convictions were greatly solidified. And now, with information so readilly available by way of the internet...the official Vatican web-site, the on-line Catechism, the Catholic Encyclopedia web-site, etc etc etc...my convictions have been solidified fully, and any *uncertainties* I might still have had have been resolved completly.

It has been very very beneficial for me to go "to the source", as they say.

It has been the proverbial final "nail in the coffin" regarding Catholicism.

Sadly,

Mike