The Holy Roman Catholic Church...

God Bless you for allowing the Scriptures to be your final Authority.

God Bless!

 

Living4Him...

Its absolutly staggering the degree to which the Catholic Hierarchial false teachers will butcher, mangle, twist, and distort these wonderful passages of scripture, in order to decieve people into buying into their false gospel of faith + works.

No. God Himself will see to it that the fruit of our justification through faith alone will be there.

And theres that hilarious line once again. I'm not sure whether it more grieves God, or whether it more ANGERS Him to see His precious ones being placed in the very same identical situation that He warns of in Galaciens...

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty by wich Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled in the yoke of bondage"

And even more interesting, also from Galaciens...

"Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic.

For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar--for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children-- but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written:

"Rejoice, O barren, You who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband."

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.

Theres nothing new under the sun. People have been butchering the scriptures...distorting the true gospel into a false one...for 2000 years now.

Heartbreaking.

Mike

 

Sirach,

No they do not. If they did then they would not be propagating the devilish lie that justification through faith alone if false, and we must add our works to it.

Its absolulty amazing. You make that statement in reference to a passage of scripture that you must not have even read. If you had read it, you would have seen what God actually said, and why that passage of scripture destroys the Catholics false justification theology.

Read it again...

"And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, then grace would no longer be grace." - Romans 11:6

According to God, the 2 are contradictory. Its grace...or its works.

But it CAN....NOT...BE...BOTH.

The catholic church is talking out of both sides of their mouth, (or "speaking with forked tongue") when they say they believe that our justification is by grace, but that we must add our works to it to be saved.

That is complete nonsense.

God bless,

Mike

 

Sirach,

The reason the church is the pillar and foundation of truth is because...

1) We offer to the world, and have alive in us and working through us, Jesus Christ. And He is "the Way the Truth, and the Life."

2) We are empowered by the Holy Spirit, who is referred to as the "Spirit of Truth."

3) We have, and offer to the world, the scriptures of God. Jesus said "Thy word is truth.

That passage of scripture has nothing in the world to do with that utterly ridiculous claim that the Catholic Church uses it for.

Sadly,

Mike

 

I'll tell you what Sirach. You show me where I am wrong in the Scriptures and I will change my beliefs. But if I show you where you are wrong, then you must change yours. Is that fair enough?
DHK

 

When is this thread going to end?

I am really tired of seeing the title on the board.

The word holy connected with ANY church just somehow sticks in my craw.

Tam

 

The entire Bible teaches us God's plan of Salvation. We need to look at the Bible in it's entirity and not just the Romans Road to draw a conclusion.

It begins in Genesis and teaches that God has always been and that He created everything from nothing. Next we learn how God created Adam and Eve free from sin, but He also gave them a free will. They could choose to Love God and follow His rules, or they could reject Him.

Because of their sin, man could do nothing to repair the fellowship with God. God loves us so much and by His Grace He reached out to humans and provided a way for us to be restored to Him.

His Grace is free because we could do nothing to restore the lost fellowship.

He freely gave His Son as a redemption for us.

But we must take action. To say that no action is required on our part is false. If we didn't need to take some action, then everyone would automatically be saved by Christ redeeming sacrifice.

The action that is required on our part is to accept God's Grace and by faith follow God's Laws for our lives. We cannot say that we trust in Jesus and then live our lives anyway that we want to. If we do, we are making light of what Jesus did for us.

Genesis - Revelation contains all the truths that we need to grow in holiness and share eternity with God.

But the Bible also shows that we cannot merely say we have faith in Jesus without putting actions into our word.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 25:32-46 that we are required to go the works of mercy.

25:32
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

25:33
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

25:34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

25:35
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

25:36
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

25:37
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

25:38
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

25:39
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

25:40
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

25:42
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

25:43
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

25:44
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

25:45
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Romans 2:6-10
2:6
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

2:8
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

2:10
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Jesus also tells us that action is required on our part. Luke 6:46-49
6:46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

6:47
Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

6:48
He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

6:49
But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

Revelation 2 states that everyone shall receive according to their works. As a Christian, we know that our works are only righteous if they are done through the Grace of God and done for His glory rather than our own.

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.


We are created to know, love, and serve God in this life so that we may enjoy eternal life with Him. How can you serve God if you do nothing?

 

A person is born again in Baptism

Romans 6:3-18
6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

6:5
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

6:7
For he that is dead is freed from sin.

6:8
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

6:9
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

6:10
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

6:15
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

6:17
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

6:18
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


I Peter 3:20-21
3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Gal 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

 

Sirach Two simple steps will answer your post.

#1 read Mark 7 "carefully" it pertains to the RCC and its abuse of God's Word on behalf of its man-made traditions and man-made doctrines.

#2. Take a hard look at your post above - that is easily the response of the Jews in Mark 7 to Christ and also to anyone that would quote Christ to them on that same topic is it not?!!

The Jews today can NOT rationally use the ploy that since baptists differ with each other on "Some things" then Jesus is not the Messiah.

The Jews today can NOT rationally use the ploy that since the RCC is the host of many of the major religious schisms (even to the point of Catholics slaughtering fellow Catholics in God's name when multiple popes ruled Catholicism) as a valid argument against Jesus as the Messiah.

Your attempt to do the same to get out of problem Bible texts is not working any better.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Excellent post L4H! Great verses!

Now these are concerning Holy Spirit baptism and not water baptism, correct? There are two declared in Scripture.....

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost , and with fire:" (Matt 3:11)

1 Cor 12:13 clearly indicates that ALL believers are baptized by the Spirit into one body....

"For by the Spirit are we all baptized into one body..."

That is "by the Spirit" and not "by the water", correct?

God Bless!

 

Then how do you explain away 2 Thess. 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.?

Mark is speaking of the traditions from the Old Covenant, not those brought by the New Covenant. The Sacred Scriptures did not include the NT for the first Christians. Therefore the traditions in 2 Thess. 2:15 were passed down orally.

One must realize that Thess. was written before the Gospels. So, if you want to completely do away with tradition, then you must do away with the Gospels because before they were written, the teachings were handed down orally.

 

Score: Salvation by works--10(out of context)
Salvation by grace--10(thus saith The Lord)

Tiebreaker scripture: Eph. 2: 8-10,"For by grace are you saved through faith; that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works lest any man should boast; for we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works; which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them".

Selah,

Bro. James

 

These passages are just the tip of the iceberg concerning the "born again" believer. Again, great post L4H!

Passages like these explain over and over, very thoroughly, just what it means to be born of God.

It is "cause and effect". Because one is born of God they become all of these things we are told in Scripture.

It is not that "now I am born of God so now I must do my part" (or else).

But rather, "now I am born of God therefore I am led by the Spirit to do my part".

The works, deeds, repentence, never ending faith is the "effect" of the rebirth. It is an act of God that transforms us into a new creature. Because of my baptism by the Spirit I now die daily and follow Jesus Christ. It is not somewthing I need to muster up from within, but rather the power is ever in me and is ever transforming me into the person God would have me to be. Some mature slower than others but rest assurred by the Word of God that all of those baptized into Christ through the Spirit will be brought into the perfectness which God desires for us in Christ.

It is quite simple how many confuse or mix up what they read.

Works are indeed part of God's plan of salvation. However not as you believe. God is the Author of the works that He would have His children perform. These works can in no way nullify God's Grace and free Gift of Eternal Life. They are indeed a part of the true believers life but out of the effect produced by the cause .

Failure to do those works which God has fore ordained that we should do does not alter the Gift. All will have some good works to their credit. Even a cold cup of water, Jesus said, will not be forgotten.

Scripture interprets Scripture. Scripture is the final Authority on these matters. Some believe that James 2 teaches that without works added to faith, one will not be saved. Scripture settles this matter unconditionally ......

"If any man's works shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved ; yet so as by fire." (1 Cor 4:15)

This Scripture is part of interpreting James 2. Others will as well, but it is perfectly clear that works will not play any part in one's final judgment of salvation .

So if you go on citing James 2 as refference to works being required for salvation, you are blantently preaching a false private interpretation of this passage.

It all comes from God, we only share in the works which He gives us to undertake. we cannot do them without His power which He has placed in us through the Spirit. If our works are found lacking, we will suffer loss, but we will still be saved.

So go on preaching that James 2 is telling us that works must accompany us into the judgment lest we not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven and you will be baring false witness of God's Word, for God said, works can be burned, but the man himself shall be saved! Praise Him!

Abandon this notion that James 2 is requiring works added to faith for salvation and see what it really is saying, that is, True Faith is seen by works! Isn't that what he said?

"...show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works." (vs 18)

STAY IN CONTEXT PEOPLE!!

God Bless!

 

Good post Steaver.
With that this thread should end, for it is well over 20 pages now. Feel free to start another on the same topic.
DHK