A Couple of Questions

1)Since Jesus completely suffered the full penalty for the sins of everyone, why didn't He experience eternal torment? He is not still suffering, is He?

2)Since Adam had the power to mess everything up for everyone else and get us kicked out of the Garden of Eden, then doesn't Jesus have the power to fix everything up for everyone else? Who has more power - Adam or Jesus?

[ June 07, 2003, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: KenH ]

1)Since Jesus completely suffered the full penalty for the sins of everyone, why didn't He experience eternal torment? He is not still suffering, is He?

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Eternal torment is not the result of Sin because Jesus paid the penalty for sin which is death. Eternal torment is the result of unbelief. Jesus is the object of one's belief that saves one from eternal torment. Belief or Believing is the ONLY thing man has the God given ability to do that can save man from eternal torment. Belief and or believing is a learned thing, not a given thing. Thus FAITH is not a gift but is that which is learned. Walking upright is not a given human thing, but is learned. That is why it takes up to a year or so for a human child to walk instead of "walking out of the womb" Faith is the same process, we must learn to have faith. We are not born with faith, and that is why we must be reborn in faith. God did not leave us alone to learn to walk, he gave us parents and other caregivers. The same with faith, we are not left alone to learn faith, we have His Holy Word, parents, and "other caregivers" such as Sunday School teachers, Pastors, and faithful acquaintences and friends who nurture us along in our learning to have faith.

Don't forget, Jesus Conquered the Penalty for sin, so NO, he is not still suffering!

2)Since Adam had the power to mess everything up for everyone else and get us kicked out of the Garden of Eden, then doesn't Jesus have the power to fix everything up for everyone else? Who has more power - Adam or Jesus?

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So, you think Adam the only one with power to mess things up? What if it had been Ralph or Marvin, or George? That's it, George did it!

Originally posted by KenH:
2)Since Adam had the power to mess everything up for everyone else and get us kicked out of the Garden of Eden, then doesn't Jesus have the power to fix everything up for everyone else? Who has more power - Adam or Jesus?

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You presume to know the mind of God? It is not a matter of power. Is not God powerful enough to have us all in Heaven this very instant? Or stop Adam and Eve from eating of the tree? Yes, He is that powerful. Has He done these things? No. Does that mean that He lacks power? No. It means that you are human and do not understand the Wisdom and Justice of God. I suggest a thorough reading of Job.

God bless,

Grant

Adam did not "have the power" of sending us to hell. Adam had "the power to choose" good or evil for himself.

Once that choice was made - God had the Power to determine whether Adam lived for one more second, and to determine whether Adam had any children at all.

God still has the power to save and God still chooses to maintain a system of "free will" so that JUST as Adam was called to CHOOSE - so are all mankind today "IF anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the Door - I will come in". Rev 3.

The "drawing of Christ" is to "ALL mankind" John 12:32 - the SAME group affected by Adam's fall.

In Christ,

Bob

1)Since Jesus completely suffered the full penalty for the sins of everyone, why didn't He experience eternal torment? He is not still suffering, is He?

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This is a false notion about how Jesus saves from sin. It is not that Jesus had to take the exact punishment for sin. Under the Law, some sins require death by stoning and other sins require death by fire. Did Jesus die by stoning? No! Did Jesus die by fire? No! Jesus' death was not a vicarius execution but a vicarius sacrifice. There's a big difference between the two, which Protestantism, especially Calvinism misses. Calvinists try to say that Jesus was punished in their place, so they can never be punished and explain it like "If the state executes one person for a crime they can't then execute another for the same crime." That's the worst analogy ever! Salvation is not "boom! Jesus took my execution for me so I can never be lost no matter what I do!" Rather, salvation is cleansing by the blood of Christ. AND continual cleansing is necessary (there is no Once Saved Always Saved) as seen in 1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." Hebrews 10:26 explains what John said again (only from the negative perspective) "For if we persist in wilfull sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," -- As long as a Christian repents and confess his sins and tries to live up to God's word, the blood of Christ continually cleanses him, but if he says "I am going to sin even though I know I shouldn't" and thus persists in willfull sin, Jesus' blood stops cleansing him, and since there is no other sacrifice for sin, he goes to hell.

2)Since Adam had the power to mess everything up for everyone else and get us kicked out of the Garden of Eden, then doesn't Jesus have the power to fix everything up for everyone else? Who has more power - Adam or Jesus?

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Adam brought physical death to all men, and Jesus brought the resurrection to all men, "for since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead." (1 Cor 15:21) So, Jesus fixed everything that Adam messed up. Even so, we have the power to bring spiritual death upon ourselves: Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." -- All men, after death, are raised back to life. But then, some of those who are raised go to hell and others to heaven. Those who go to hell do not go because Adam sinned but because they sinned - the son does not bear the iniquity of the father, but the soul that sinneth dies! Of course, all souls sin; therefore, all souls would die [go to hell], if it weren't for Christ! Because of Christ's sacrifice, however, sin can be cleansed and removed, thus the soul that sinned is viewed as if it didn't, because the very sin it committed is washed away by His blood. This, of course, is only true of those that accept Christ on Christ's terms. Peter stated Christ's terms quite well in Acts 2:38 "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." And, Paul explained baptism quite well when he said (in Colossians 2:11) In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, {12} buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. {13} And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, - Those who were dead in sin were made alive where??? In baptism!

[ June 08, 2003, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]

Solascriptura,
The wage paid for sin is Death. Jesus did not sin, yet he died to pay the penalty for our sins, so that we would not be judged and sentenced in accordance with the law. Under the law, sins atoned are sins that did not happen. If they did not happen because of atonement, they cannot be charged against the one who sins, therefore, sins cannot be the reason for judgment! Yet, scriptures reveal that it is appointed once for man to die and then the judgement. So what is the judgment for if sins are atoned by Jesus?

In the scriptures, there are three things that man must be concerned with; sin, works, and Faith. Jesus' atonement eliminates sin as a factor in the judgment leaving works and faith. The Apostle Paul clearly states that salvation is a gift of God in "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, and not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast." What is the gift of God? Salvation is the Gift of God, and Salvation is the result of faith which cometh by hearing... It is not of works, lest any man should boast. Surely Billy Graham and Paul the Apostle and John the Baptist would have much to boast about, don't you agree?

So, we now have sins and works eliminated as factors in salvation. That leaves Faith alone as the only factor that is charged against man for Salvation judgment purposes. You either have Faith in God, or you have no Faith in God. Faith in God in its minutest measurement is sufficient unto salvation (faith even on His name). Jesus tells us that with faith the size of the tiniest mustard seed, we are able to "move mountains into the sea", well with faith that small, we are able to be recognized by the Judge as having faith in God.

There are many who do not have such faith, either because they have not heard, or because they have heard and rejected the gospel message.

The purpose of this post is to dispell any myth regarding the powers of atonement. Atonement does not save, but it does enable one to be saved, in the same manner that Grace enables one to be saved, while not doing the saving. If our sins were not paid for, we would most definitely receive the wage paid for sin which is death. That is because the penalty under the law, is death for sin (Romans 6:23). Jesus did not come to do away with the Law, but to make it complete. He died for our sins under the law!

Matt 5:17-19. `Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete them. In truth I tell you, till heaven and earth disappear, not one dot, not one little stroke, is to disappear from the Law until all its purpose is achieved. Therefore, anyone who infringes even one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be considered the least in the kingdom of Heaven; but the person who keeps them and teaches them will be considered great in the kingdom of Heaven.

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Therefore, because our legal obligation is settled, it is in accordance with OUR faith, the faith of "whosoever believeth in Him", that we can live! John 3:16-18.

The wage paid for sin is Death. Jesus did not sin, yet he died to pay the penalty for our sins, so that we would not be judged and sentenced in accordance with the law.

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True, but in a stricter sense salvation is by the cleansing of His blood, by which I mean that His death does not save anyone until they accept Him (on HIS terms) - it is only when we accept Him that our sins are washed away - AND it is also true that He did not take the exact punishment required by the Law: The Law required stoning of adulterers, but Christ did not take their stoning. The Law required burning for fornicating priests' daughters, but Jesus did not burn at the stake! Jesus died on a cross. Thus, we must not assume it was necessary for Jesus to take our exact punishment. It also must not be assumed that He only saved us from the punishment of the Law (physical death) because He saves from hell also!

You say that faith is the only basis of judgement. What is lack of faith? Sin, "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin." If what is done without faith is sin, then what is done in faith is righteousness! Thus sin or the lack thereof is still the basis of judgement! 1 John 1:7 and Hebrews 10:26 show that all my sins were not removed the moment that Jesus died on the cross, but are continually cleansed while I walk with Jesus. If I stop walking with Him in the light, however, he stops cleansing them and I go to hell according to Hebrews 10:26-7. Thus, it is sin and the abscence thereof that is the basis of judgement. Of course, sin can only be abscent when Christ's blood has cleansed it - 1 John 1:7

Judgement Day is not about physical death (the penalty of the law) but eternal-hell (not the penalty of the law), therefore, our standing with the Law is not in question as far as Judgement Day is concerned, but sin is still in the question!

[ June 08, 2003, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]

A better explanation (I've been thinking about this a lot):

A huge problem is the double speak where a theologian speaks of Jesus taking the penalty of the Law for us and then tries to act as if Jesus taking the penalty of the Law saves a person from hell. The penalty of the Law was never hell, but rather was physical death. It is not the fact that Jesus took the penalty of the Law that saves us from hell - the fact that He took the penalty of the Law saves us from the penalty of the Law, but the cleansing of His blood which we only have as we walk with Him saves us from hell. HOW? Those who have sin go to hell; those who are clean do not. Those who walk with Christ are being cleansed by His blood; those who do not walk with Him are becoming ever more filthy.

Questions on this matter should be settled by a study of 1 John 1:7 and Hebrews 10:26-27 together. John states in the positive light what Hebrews states in the negative; thus, if they are studied together they provide the entire picture.