The Son of God is God the Son?

I love those Old Testament references to Christ.....

Psalms 2:12 kiss the son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Just a couple...

 

Kelly,

Did you see my last questions?

 

Hi Kelly,

You wrote, "The Bible does not provide that Jesus was created by God"

Then Jesus is God.

He proceeded out of God.

Then he is created. Anything that is produced [proceeded, begotten, etc.] within time is termed "creation", even if it isn't composed of matter; that's what the spirits called "angels".

The difference with God the Son is that he is eternally begotten; the first procession within the Trinity, like the second (that of the Holy Spirit), is eternal.

There was a time when He was still IN God.

If Jesus was in God before he came out of God, then there are multiple persons within God. Someone who isn't extant can't be extant within another being, else such is extant.

NOW, He is Yeshua

You can say "Jesus"; it's okay.

It is impossible that God could exist and not have a beginning.

OOoooookaaaaayyyy.... Then who or what caused God to come into existence?

By the way, since you are a wee bit philosophy-deficient, may I remind you that in God, his existence and his essence are identical, unlike creation, whose essence is created and held into existence by God as contingent beings. That is, contingent upon the power of God to hold such beings in existence.

If God said that Jesus was born of Him, then THAT is what happened.

I'm not denying that the Son of God is generated by the Father; I'm denying that this generation occurred once in time, and I am affirming that it is an eternal generation.

Time is relative.

And in God, there is no change, thus relativity is impossible for God; creation is relative only in relation to God, the unmoved mover and infinite being.

Kelly, you're presenting irrational contradictions (like Mormons are susceptible to quite often). The Christian faith isn't irrational; revelation is above reason and elevates it, but it doesn't run contrary to reason; in your words, there is an inherent irrationality, which is what you are demanding from both yourself and your audience.

[ July 07, 2003, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

3AM,

Funny that this discussion is going on. To the first century Jews, there was no discussion. They knew exactly what Jesus was claiming. You say that the Bible nowhere says that Jesus is equal to God. However, the implication of what Jesus claimed is clear, even to the Jews.

"So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to the very day, and I , too, am working." For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling god his own Father, making himself equal with God." John 5:16-18, NIV

The Jews knew what He was claiming. Why don't you acknowledge it?

And how do you explain John 10:30? In what way are Christ and the Father one?

In the Glorious Lord Jesus Christ,
Neal

 

How did Jesus come into being if not as a creation of God?</font>[/QUOTE]I believe He proceeded forth, or came out of, or was born of God. Adam was created out of dirt, and the breath of life. Jesus came out of God. Adam is created, Jesus came out of.

I am certain that I have not said that.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

Is this a literal birth? Who do you believe God mated with? Himself? </font>[/QUOTE]Am I supposed to take this seriously?

 

I think we've found one thing where almost all Christians universally, Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans, heck almost all of us, except the Jews of course (but they aren't saved), agree that Jesus Christ is God. And that the Trinity is a valid doctrine.

 

Is this a literal birth? Who do you believe God mated with? Himself? </font>[/QUOTE]Am I supposed to take this seriously? </font>[/QUOTE]Yes

 

Not necessarily. Jesus is not a creation of God, becuase He proceeded forth and came from God. He is NOT the Most High God, because there is only ONE Most High God. I've already said that I do believe Jesus to be diety, but He is NOT equal to God, and the level of diety He has was given to Him by God.

Ok, the BIBLE says He proceeded out of God, and YOU say that makes Him created? Sorry, but, uh, NO.

It is impossible that God can lie. Do you agree? If what YOU just said is true, then GOD is lying.

HUH? Ok, Carson, I know you think you know everything, but could you just briefly explain for the class what YOU think extant means? Based on my knowledge of that word you didn't make a lick of sense just now.

Actually I am trying to remove that word from my vocabulary. Do you know the historic origins of the word 'jesus'? You know, His name is NOT 'jesus' it IS Yeshua? I'll call Him Yeshua, thanks.

Okay? You don't honestly think I was saying that seriously, do you? YOU SAID, it is impossible...blah blah... so my response is that EVERYTHING we believe about God, is IMPOSSIBLE, according to man. Get a grip.

I'm glad I am not well versed in the philosophy of man. I praise God that my mind is not tainted by the deceit of man. God is not the subject here, Yeshua is. God is not being questioned. I am quite aware that mankinds existence is contingent upon God sustaining life. That life, which is Christ, is sustained by God. Christ is the life of all men. He is the Light that lights man. That LIGHT that came from God. FROM God. Which makes Christ FROM God.

hmmmm.

Carson, do you honestly think that the Son of God, who proceeded forth and CAME from God, is forever proceeding forth and coming from God? You know, that IS NOT what the Bible says! The Bible is pretty clear on this one, and the Greek tense of that word is in a PAST tense. Which means that He, at some point in time (oohhhh) came out of God. There isn't a constant stream of Christ flowing out of God! There is GOD, Yahweh, and ever since He came out of God, there is Yeshua, His Son. There is STILL, as there was BEFORE He came out, ONLY ONE GOD.

You should make your handle the Riddler. Again, I am going to have to ask you to tell us all what YOU think 'relative' means. With the current definition, I am certain, most of us know, you didn't make any sense, again.

And Catholics NEVER do that.

I can't help but point out, that you just don't make any sense. God GAVE us reason, so that we would judge to see if the things we are taught are of God, by studying His Word. If we believe that our beliefs are ABOVE the scrutiny of reason, then we are leaving ourselves open to all sorts of false doctrines and LIES. What you just said, is a HUGE contradiction of terms.

Ok, first you tell me that I must believe the trinity based on my FAITH, and that it is because of my REASON that I deny it! NOW you are telling me that my statements are irrational??? Do you know what that word means?

You remind me of my 8 year old, who hears adults use words, and because he knows adults know more than kids, he starts using them, having NO IDEA what they mean, so he will 'appear' intellegent.

Get yourself a dictionary.

 

Actually there are some Jews who are saved and they don't believe that God is a trinity. They also don't believe that Jesus is God. (Messianic)

There is an ENTIRE denomination, of protestant Christians that don't profess a trinity.

They believe just as I do, that there is One God, and One Lord Jesus Christ, His Son, who he (the ONE GOD) sent.

Are they all going to hell too?

God Bless,
Kelly

 

Is it a literal birth?
Literal, meaning an opening of the Matrix? NO. He is Spirit, just as God is Spirit. He came out of God's mouth. He is the Word of God.
Who do I believe God mated with? No one.
Himself? No, He didn't need a mate.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

So Jesus was not born at all. You should have just said:

"Jesus came out of God's mouth" and just left it at that.

Although you may not want to admit this, you are saying that Jesus was created by God. Jesus was the result of God speaking, therefore according to what you are describing, God created Jesus by speaking.

 

This is VERY similar to how Zeus "birthed" his children gods, like Athena.

Do you have any scripture for any of this, by chance? Where did you come up with this stuff?

 

So Jesus was not born at all. You should have just said:

"Jesus came out of God's mouth" and just left it at that.</font>[/QUOTE]Well, no, the word in John 8:24 which is translated 'proceeded forth' is 'exerchomai' which means 'to come out of, either literally or figuratively, to proceed out, or be born of'. Are we LITERLLY born again, when we are Born of God? NO!

You are right that I won't admit it, because that is not what I am saying, nor do I believe it.

No. God spoke into existence all things THROUGH Christ. It was through Christ, the VERY Word of God, that, GOD created the worlds. At some point before the time that God created the heavens and the earth, His Son, Jesus, the Word of God, CAME OUT of His mouth, literally, the Words of His mouth, speaking, and for the first time, Christ existed.

When is the first time God spoke?

"Let there be LIGHT"

Who is the Light of the world?

hmmmm

 

Genesis 1:1-3 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was without form and empty. And darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved on the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light. And there was light.


Are you trying to say that Jesus was created after the heavens and earth?

 

Thus when God created light, He created Jesus Christ. Your theology dictates that Christ, of a necessity must be a created being, whether you like it or not.
DHK

 

This is VERY similar to how Zeus "birthed" his children gods, like Athena.

Do you have any scripture for any of this, by chance? Where did you come up with this stuff? </font>[/QUOTE]Actually you have it the wrong way around. Paganism immitates true religion.

The TRUTH about God, and the Word was known by man from Adam. It got tainted, and twisted and that is where paganism arose from.

Scripture? Of course. Do you believe that Jesus was the Word of God, incarnated into a human body?

What is the 'Word of God'? Is it not the VERY Words that proceed out of the mouth of God?

If Jesus is the Word, then He came out of God's mouth.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

No. I just said, in that very post, that God created the heavens and the earth THROUGH Jesus.

NOW, how could He have done that if He didn't exist until God said 'let there be light'?

He was commanding The Word, to SHINE out of the darkness.

He didn't 'create' light.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

This might just make it more confusing, but here are some Scriptures that I didn't see mentioned at the top of this thread:

ICor. 8:
[6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Deut. 6:
[4] Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
-------------------------------
Matt. 28:
[18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 2: (Peter)
[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:12 (Philip)
[12] But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 19: (Paul)

[5] When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:
[48] And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Rom.6
[3] Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Notice that in Matthew, Jesus told them to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost? Look at the other verses below that. In whose name did they baptize?

 

But we are new creations.

Do you mind telling me how Jesus and the Father are one, as you understand it?

Also, will you at least acknowledge what was going on in John 5, that the Jews knew that Jesus claimed that He was equal to God?

And what of John 1:1? The Word was Who? God. Seems to equate the Word to God, at least to me. Here is something else to show you that the Jews knew exactly what Jesus was claiming:

"'We are not stoning you for any of these,' replied the Jews, 'but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God (lit. "make yourself God").'" John 10:33, NIV

May the Lord Jesus Christ Bless You,
Neal