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In Christ and the Blessed Virgin

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Yelsew, Jun 2, 2003.

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  1. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Amazing that you demand Scripture, and yet your little account of Mary at the beginning of your last post is not told in the Bible. It is all assumed, from negative Scriptural evidence.

    God bless,

    Grant     </font>[/QUOTE]It is all assumed based upon what is common and normal among mankind. The evidence is all around us for those who will open their minds enough to see the evidence. Facts is facts! You have offered no facts, only fanciful romance!

    Shucks, it's OK that you cannot support your belief about Mary with scripture, I'm even willing to entertain your non-use of scripture to prove your point. Put it to us, give us the logic and rationale for your belief that Mary the mother of Jesus has what you say she has, or is what you say she is.

    Give us your heartfelt understanding of Mary's role after she birthed and wiened our Lord and savior, the Son of the Living God. Was she more than the mother of a boy child who was perfect in every way? Did she abstain from sexual intercourse with her human husband Joseph, which most assuredly would end her virginity?

    Give us the reasons to believe as you do!

    [ June 05, 2003, 03:28 AM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]
     
    #21 Yelsew, Jun 5, 2003
  2. Singer

    Singer New Member

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    Ah, Grant, you didn't like my revealing answer did you....it exposed your bad
    doctrine.

    Your question was:
    Why do you keep saying that we believe and/or practice that Mary intercedes/mediates between man and God the Father?

    I showed you where claims and appeals are made for Mary's intercession.
    As even more proof of that, the following shows Carson's answer
    to the comment in bold from the "Servants of Mary" thread:

    Mary is not sitting in Heaven at the Father's right hand interceding for
    our souls, nor is any saint.

    (Quote - Carson):
    " It is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively
    intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they
    offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical
    things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in
    heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they
    are interceding. "

    Your statemement was not concerning Mary bypassing Jesus as Carson
    is saying; It was about Mary intercedeing for us. To deny Carson's
    statement puts you in disagreement with him. He says the saints intercede;
    you say Mary doesn't. Is Mary not a saint then ? Your own Catholic prayers
    appeals to Mary: "Hail Mary full of Grace; Pray for us Sinners Now......etc"
    What's that if it's not intercession?

    Your responses are the A-typical Catholic interaction. (If we get caught,
    deny the evidence. If all else fails; attack the person and refuse to respond.)
    That's fine with me...I'm not offended in having the last word.

    [ June 05, 2003, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: Singer ]
     
    #22 Singer, Jun 5, 2003
  3. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    IS THERE SEX IN HEAVEN?

    Well, is there? Read the above article and come back to me with your response.

    Cordially in Christ and the Blessed Virgin,


    Brother Ed
     
    #23 CatholicConvert, Jun 5, 2003
  4. Singer

    Singer New Member

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    Help...!!!
    Someone tell me I didn't read this:

    The Blessed Virgin is the wife of God.

    (I didn't think I could lose any more respect for the RCC..
    I was wrong again).

    Cordially In Christ without the Blessed Ex-Virgin,

    Singer
     
    #24 Singer, Jun 5, 2003
  5. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    Oh, but you did read this. And that's why you better start being more respectful to Her!!

    God placed His life giving seed in Her and brought forth His Son. That is the prima facea definition of a father and husband, is it not? Or is God just a fornicator like mankind who goes around knockin' up women as He pleases (with deep apologies to the sensibilities of my more holy brethren on this forum).

    Or perhaps you, in your profound wisdom, the same wisdom which tells you that you do not have to accept the wisdom of anyone but singer, are an Arian monotheist and don't believe that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God by nature. Is that the case? Sure sounds like it, because you haven't put 2 and 2 together regarding the Blessed Virgin and all that God did with Her and through Her.

    St. Alphonso Ligouri wrote an excellent piece called "Mary - the wife of the Holy Spirit" It is well worth reading, especially for converts who need a good foundation in Marian teachings.

    Cordially in Christ and the ever virgin Mary,

    Brother Ed
     
    #25 CatholicConvert, Jun 5, 2003
  6. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Thanks for reminding me about that (I have some good books on Mary here at the apartment that I had totally forgotten about). But these days are killing me, lately. I went to sleep at 9:30 last night and got up at 5am. :( :(

    So tired...Probably gonna take a hiatus from here for a few days, and go out and do something. School + Work = Taking all my time.

    Anyway, I'm just ranting now. ;)

    God bless,

    Grant
     
    #26 GraceSaves, Jun 5, 2003
  7. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    "God placed his life giving seed in her and brought forth his son"? I read the Catholic version of the scriptures (translated of course) and do not find that God did such a thing. The Holy Scripture says that the power of the most High came over her and SHE CONCEIVED! The power of the most high came over the void of the earth and creation began. He Spoke the word and there was light, etc.

    God did not have coitus with Mary or she would not be a Virgin, giving birth to Jesus, the coitus would have ended her virginity. And your "blessed virgin" would have become a "former virgin" which she did in her marriage to Joseph!

    Planting seed is what a husband and Father does to his wife, but Mary was not and is not the Wife of God, but rather the vessel God chose to use to bring forth His only begotten Son, Jesus into the world.

    In the case of Mary, there was no "knocking up" in the human sense of the term. God did not need to "enter" her through her vagina to deposit his sperm. There was no sperm deposted, sperm is a male human product. The Conception in Mary's womb was not accomplished in the normal human manner, but rather in the manner that God created the Heavens and the earth, through divine power. In the manner that God used a mule to "talk" to one of his prophets.
     
    #27 Yelsew, Jun 5, 2003
  8. A_Christian

    A_Christian New Member

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    I believe that as a Fundamentalist, I have a
    tendency to overly devalue Mary. I believe
    that Jesus (the man) loved Mary as any son
    would love his mom. I also feel that Mary
    was a very righteous individual. With all that
    said, I still don't presume to exalt Mary as
    a queen of anything. GOD loved Noah,
    Abraham, Moses, David, Daniel, etc.... All
    these people played important roles in GOD's
    plan. It can also be said that they ALL shared
    a part in the coming of the Messiah. The birth
    of Isaac to Sarah was a miracle (though not
    as the birth of Christ). Mary was not perfect
    and was as sinful as any human and this is
    where I split away from Catholicism. Mary and I
    are Saints. Not because of what we did but
    because what GOD does through us and His saving
    grace.
     
    #28 A_Christian, Jun 5, 2003
  9. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Well CatholicConvert, Since I seem to be unable to post my point by point reply to your last long post (My reply may yet be forthcoming), I'll reply by stating that you have provided no information that is definitive or persuasive, or even researchable, except the personal, non cross referenced or sourced, opinion of Peter K. You expect me to blindly agree that he is right, which after reading his nine page opinion dissertation, I find it to be full of inaccuracies.

    We have to do better than that if you are to persuade me that your beliefs are the correct biblical beliefs that will save me from eternal hell if I believe them. Give me something solid to go on.

    [ June 05, 2003, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]
     
    #29 Yelsew, Jun 5, 2003
  10. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

     
    #30 Yelsew, Jun 5, 2003
  11. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    Yelsew --

    The point is that God placed His life in Her. Since He is not human, but spirit, the accomplishment of this did not involve normal human means. But the doing (placing of life) and the result (birth) are quite the same.

    As for the rest, you will not be convinced, so there is nothing I can do to convince you. Coming to Faith is the work of the Holy Spirit, and the last time I looked in the mirror, I did not see Him, but just another scruffy sinner who trusts in Christ as his Savior.

    Cordially in Christ,

    Brother Ed
     
    #31 CatholicConvert, Jun 5, 2003
  12. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    I came to faith in Jesus the Christ because of all the evidence that actually supports such faith.

    I do not find any evidence relating to Mary that would cause one to establish belief that she is more than mere human, and that she is unable to do more than is common among men.

    The fact that she bore the Son of God in her womb is testamony to God and not to Mary. Mary would not have been able to tell any difference between her pregnancy as a virgin and any subsequent pregnancies. She probably experienced the stopping of periods, the normal morning sickness brought on by chemistry changes, the normal movements of the child within her, and the normal pains of labor and child birth. No doubt she experienced the exhileration of seeing the fruit of her womb in her arms and experiencing the nursing of the child at her breast, etc. All of those are normal to humanity. The fact that Jesus is the Son of God may not have changed any of that scenario, however, I believe that God especially protected the womb in which His Son grew. But once the child is birthed and the womb restored as wombs do restore after the birth, Mary was no more and no less than any other human mother.
     
    #32 Yelsew, Jun 5, 2003
  13. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    I came to faith in Jesus the Christ because of all the evidence that actually supports such faith.

    I came to faith in Jesus Christ because I had a personal experience of the risen Lord.

    Our faith is reasonable, but it isn't the reasonableness of our faith that should bring us to faith. Faith is, ultimately, a grace-gift from the Blessed Trinity, that we can only accept humbly in our poverty.
     
    #33 Carson Weber, Jun 5, 2003
  14. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Carson,
    Though I am convinced that you believe this, your understanding of the essence of faith is wrong.

    Faith itself is not a gift. If it were a gift, you could give the faith your receive to another, but you cannot do that, because FAITH is something that you do and possess within your self. It is an attribute of the one having belief in something or someone.

    Neither is Salvation a gift. It is what someone else does for us...not of ourselves. We cannot even receive salvation, but we can experience it. God's grace is not a gift, it is how He behaves toward us. If any of these things were gifts, we could receive them and pass them on to someone else, but we cannot do that because we actually receive nothing that we can pass on.

    At the judgement where God determines our faith and either gives us eternal life or casts us into the lake of fire, we are individually judged. We who have faith in Jesus, cannot go before the Judge's bench arm in arm, holding on to one who has no faith, and expect to save that one. It don't work that way!

    Under God's grace, we are given the time and opportunity to develop faith in God. If we do not do so, we are lost for eternity.
     
    #34 Yelsew, Jun 6, 2003
  15. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    At the onset of Isaiah's prophecy he points to and pens a future time even to us which is called theologically, the Millennial Kingdom or the Kingdom Age. You and I do not see sinful human beings of the world, 'beating their swords into plowshares or their spears into pruninghooks . . . . we are still learning the art of war.' [Isaiah 2:4] But, there will come the long awaited day when men will ' . . . learn war no more.' This will be when Jesus sits enthroned in Jerusalem [Zechariah 14:2, 4a, 8b, 9, 14a, 16] for His thousand year reign on this earth. [Revelation 20:2e, 3e, 4j, 5a, 6e, 7a]

    The prophet in chapter 7:14 then makes reference to a virgin but without personalizing her name, but does emphasize the son of her birth Who God calls His Son, Immanuel, God with us.

    In a latter reference in chapter nine verse six, it is not the mother who is elevated for our attention, but the Son of God. There is perhaps a reference to the Divine Being of God in His three Persons. Father: He will be called ' . . . the everlasting Father; secondly there is a reference to the Son: 'A child is born and a son given . . . . the Prince of peace. And lastly, there may be a reference to the Holy Spirit because of the words that He will become our 'Counselor'. [John 14:23e {We will come to you} John 14:26]

    The Kingdom and church is Christ's [Matthew 16:18 'this Rock-{petra}, I Corinthians 3:11] Notice also that 'the government will be on His shoulder' {a single Person and gender will be male} This perhaps has a reference to His governmental reign that Zechariah speaks about in his writings, which the Revelator speaks of in greater detain and delineates the time span, of one thousand years.

    Apparently, the focus is on the God-Man because I find no personal reference to Mary in Zechariah or in the prophecy of Isaiah.

    Surely, Mary was a blessed woman because it is because of her that we inherit all of the spiritual blessings from Christ. In fact, Elizabeth said, 'Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.'

    Jesus never elevates His mother to the level of His co-redemptrix. On the contrary, Mary elevates her son as her only Savior. Luke 1:46 says, 'And Mary said, My soul magnifies the Lord; and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior. Please notice, ' . . . my Savior.'

    None of the references above even hints of Mary being integral in ministering grace to sinners or saints. We do, however, feel and believe that she was very blessed when you think of the billions of virgins who, hypothetically, could have birthed our Savior, Jesus.
     
    #35 Ray Berrian, Jun 6, 2003
  16. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Hi Yelsew,

    I'm beginning to think that you'll oppose just about anything a Catholic on this board says just because a Catholic said it, even if it means denying fundamental tenents of the orthodoxy found in the confines of mere Christianity.

    Yelsew: "Faith itself is not a gift ... Neither is Salvation a gift"

    Paul: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8)

    Yelsew: "God's grace is not a gift"

    Paul: "Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God's grace" (Ephesians 3:7)

    Of course, I won't continue to argue these points with you. God's word is quite sufficient to reprove and admonish you, my brother. I don't believe that you're at a point in which you will listen to what I am saying. But perhaps you'll listen to the Word of God, and if you won't listen to that, well, I'm not your judge.
     
    #36 Carson Weber, Jun 6, 2003
  17. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    I argue with wrong thinking about God, and the Catholic faith has so very much wrong thinking to "unlearn". Even in Paul's statement that you quoted, "it is the gift of God" The fact that one is saved is the gift of God. Grace is something that is true of God, and faith is something that is true of man. It is while God behaves in accordance with His grace, that we are saved through our faith. Salvation is the Gift, not grace not faith.

    However, God's Grace, a behavioral attribute of God, may be viewed as a Gift. He could behave toward us with Justice, and thereby destroy us at our first sin, but he chooses to behave in accordance with His grace, His Love for us, His Mercy toward us, (grace and mercy being the same thing in God, but perceived by us as two different things). He, gifts us of HIMSELF according to His Graciousness toward us, a behavioral characteristic. He does not however transfer something called grace from himself to us.

    God has no need of FAITH, the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It is impossible for Omniscient, All seeing God to have faith because he KNOWS ALL and SEES ALL. Nothing exists for which God must have faith!

    Therefore God has no faith to give out to us, and we cannot receive faith as one would receive a handout. Faith in humans is a LEARNED thing, and not a given or received thing. We learn to trust, we learn to believe, we learn Faith. No one can transfer one's own trust, belief or faith to another. It is impossible for the other to receive those things, they must be learned by the one who will possess them.

    So Yes, Carson, I will argue against all wrong thinking about God, regardless of the source of that wrong thinking! Without doubt, you possess much "learning", but you lack much wisdom.
    You have learned that faith is something one can receive as a gift from another. That is a lie!
    You have learned that Grace is something that God bestows upon you. That is a lie!
    You have learned that Peter is the rock upon which Jesus would build His church. That is a lie!

    If you believe that you are made in the image of God, then you too must have many of the attributes that God himself has. Most scholars consider Grace to be an attribute of God. Therefore man must also have grace. You have grace, or you would not be able to behave graciously towards others. Can you give even one iota of your grace to another so that other has some of 'your' grace? NO! It is not done that way. Each human made in the image of God has the same attributes that all other human's have. We all do not live according to our attributes from birth, but must learn to live and behave in accordance with them. We do not all start out 'Full of Grace', but we can become full of grace by yielding to it. We do not all start out 'loving unconditionally', in fact the opposite is true, but we can learn to love in accordance with the attribute of love we have built in by yielding to it. God's love toward us, nurtures our love toward God and of course, others.

    Challenge your learned doctrines, prove them to be true, but not in accordance with the way they are taught to you. Learn to think rightly about deity, for if you don't you'll fall for the counterfeit!
     
    #37 Yelsew, Jun 6, 2003
  18. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003 New Member

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    The title of this thread implies that Christ is still in Mary, which obviously isn't true - he's been born already! But, I guess the Catholics somehow didn't get the memo.
     
    #38 SolaScriptura in 2003, Jun 6, 2003
  19. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Nice joke. ;) Unfortunately, the title does not say "In Christ who is in the Blessed Virgin," but "In Christ and the Blessed Virgin." The AND dictates two exclusive parties, Jesus AND Mary. Nowhere does it say He is still IN her.

    [​IMG]

    God bless,

    Grant
     
    #39 GraceSaves, Jun 8, 2003
  20. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore New Member

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    Please rethink your statement. This teaching is contrary to the Athanasian Creed which, unless a man firmly believe, he can not be saved:

    To say Mary had a conjugal relation with God is confusion of the Substance. God took on human flesh purely of the substance of His mother. So Mary is properly called the Mother of God. Luke 1:35, 1 Tim 3:16.

    Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not without sin: "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23. The papish "immaculate conception" is based on the false premise that God would not humble Himself to be born of a sinful virgin. The Pope has elevated himself above scripture by inventing a sinless virgin.
     
    #40 John Gilmore, Jun 12, 2003
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