In Christ and the Blessed Virgin

Hi Ray,

You wrote, "Was the seat of David in Heaven with glorified saints and angels or did King/Prophet/David sit in Jerusalem as the second king of Israel?"

Ray, no longer is the Davidic Kingdom an earthly theocratic kingdom. Jesus incorporates, transforms, and elevates the Davidic Covenant in the New Covenant. No longer do we have an earthly king but a heavenly king. David prefigures Jesus, who is the real deal, the true heavenly king who was enthroned upon the Davidic throne at his resurrection as clearly stated by Peter.

This is what Peter teaches, and this is the constant faith of the Church. There is to be no further earthly kingdom. To continue to seek such a worldly kingdom is to fall back to Judaism and to essentially reject a central aspect of the Gospel (that the kingdom of heaven is at hand).

 

Hi Neal,

Thank-you for sharing how you interpret this book of the Bible.

Also, I don't want for you to get me wrong and somehow now think that I discount those parts of Revelation that speak of the end of the world. I said, "much of revelation", not "all of revelation".

 

Brother Carson,

I will try to give you a dialogue that you can work with and hopefully will agree with me as to its content. You wanted to discuss Acts 2:29-36.

You will agree with me that Jesus died, arose, ascended and is enthroned at the Father's right hand in Heaven. Approximately, 2,003 years ago Peter is preaching about why all of the above in this paragraph is most vitally important.

In verse 29 Peter states that David is in an earthly tomb and is going no where until the resurrection of the just. Is David in Heaven now? Yes.

In verse 30 Peter is saying that David was a prophet and he knew that God made an oath to him. Jesus had no human posterity meaning that Jesus had no children from any human being by way of copulation, or any other way. So when God promises 'fruit of his loins' he is referring to the prophet David. It was from David's lineage one thousand years later that Jesus was born to the virgin Mary, thanks be to God.

In Matthew chapter one we know that Jesus was born in a perfect lineage from King David as noted in verse six. We do know that Jesus was born of the tribe of Judah as we read in Revelation 5:5. David's dying words were a prophecy of the fact that One would be born of his lineage that would insure the everlasting covenant leading to the Messianic Kingdom. David said, 'He shall be as the light of the morning . . . ' The king admits that his reign was not one of tranquility and peace like the one that will appear on the distant horizon in the 1,000 year reign of Christ. [from Revelation chapter 20]

The Prophet Micah in chapter five verse two speaks of when Christ will ' . . . be Ruler in Israel.' To this point in time Jesus has never ruled in Israel, so we know that he is pointing to a future time, probably beyond our lives.

So in Acts 2:30 Peter is saying that from David's lineage a Prodigy will come, namely the royal seed from Mary that has produced our Savior, Jesus Christ. Peter goes not to say in verse thirty that Christ would come and sit on David's throne, which has been confirmed as a future event in Zechariah chapter fourteen. King David in verse 25 knows that this Messiah will take his throne through lawful progression through human lineage.

Verse thirty one of Acts chapter two is saying that if Jesus was not raised from the tomb and if He did not ascend into Heaven, He surely would never be able to fulfil His eternal promise to sit on the throne of His father David. What Peter is saying is that it was from the lineage of David having been a father, would come the promised Son.

Peter warns the hearers, who were 'the house of Israel,' [vs. 26] that Jesus one day would sit in authority over the whole world. [Zechariah 14:9] The listening Jews wanted to be included in the scheme of things; after all, they were circumcised Jews and worthy of being included in things. So they say, 'Men and brethren, what shall we do?'

They did what all of us have done. [Vs. 38] We have repented, been baptized and have received the Holy Spirit, by receiving His Son. We as well as those gathered Jews are now prepared in our hearts for when He activates in His Providence His Personal Messianic Kingdom in Jerusalem, Israel. [Zechariah 14:17]

 

Hi Ray,

Approximately, 2,003 years ago Peter is preaching

Actually, about 2,003 years ago, Jesus Christ was born. Peter didn't make this proclamation until approximately 33 years after this time.

Peter goes not to say in verse thirty that Christ would come and sit on David's throne

Yes, he does, and there's no getting around it.

"Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants upon his throne, [David] foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses" (Acts 2:30ff).

Peter tells us that (1) David prophesied that one of his descendants would ascend his throne, (2) David, in Psalm 16, is speaking of Christ's resurrection, (3) Christ has risen from the dead, and this has been witnessed.

Conclusion? JESUS CHRIST IS CURRENTLY REIGNING UPON THE THRONE OF DAVID. It doesn't get much clearer than that, Ray.

Verse thirty one of Acts chapter two is saying that if Jesus was not raised from the tomb and if He did not ascend into Heaven, He surely would never be able to fulfil His eternal promise to sit on the throne of His father David.

No, Ray, that is not what the passage says! How can you, in all good conscience, twist what Peter is saying in such a way?

Peter does not say that the resurrection somehow assures us of some future enthronement. Peter does say that Jesus' resurrection is that very enthronement!

Peter warns the hearers, who were 'the house of Israel,' [vs. 26] that Jesus one day would sit in authority over the whole world.

It's verse 36, not 26, and Peter does not say "one day Jesus will sit in authority over the whole world". Peter does say, "Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified".

Jesus is Lord and Christ because God has made him so in the resurrection. To miss this is to miss the Gospel, brother! And what is the Gospel? Jesus' Christ's Lordship!

 

Carson, I get ya.

Neal

 

Acts 2 does not say that Jesus is now sitting on David's throne. No point in making that up.

God's Throne in heaven = Christ's throne today - is never called "The Throne of David" or "David's Throne" in all of scripture. We probably don't want to make anything up to the contrary in that regard either.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Ezekiel chapters thirty-seven to forty-eight speaks of the national and spiritual resurrection of the Israelites and re-establishment of their land, Israel. [Ezekiel 37:14]

In chapter thirty-seven verse twenty-two there is the promise of God that the nation of Israel would became a nation; this happened in 1948.

In chapter forty I am told that the measurements of this Millennial Temple are different than Solomon's, Zerubbabel's or even Herod's Temple.

In the vision of the Temple one thing is singly missing and it is the Ark of the Covenant and the mercy seat. Why? This feature of the Temple was always the center of the worship furnishings because God was resident there. Why is there not mention by the Prophet Ezekiel as to this Ark of the Covenant? The answer is because just after the Second Coming of Christ He will set up His world wide theocracy [Zechariah 14:9], headquartered, if you will in Jerusalem. [Zechariah 14:17]

There will be no need of the Ark of the Covenant where the Presence of God would be spearheaded from, but during this age Christ will be in the Millennial Temple and there will be no need for this holy furnishing.

The fact is that the Lord will be among His people in His glorified, spiritual body. He will be Sovereign of the world. In Ezekiel 38:20 the prophet says, ' . . . all men who are on the face of the earth will shake at His Presence.' In Ezekiel 43:7 God says that ' . . . the place of My throne is the place where the soles of My feet will tread; I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever.' These are not words of poetic license, but are going to be proven to be His exacting truth as to His throne in Jerusalem after His Second Coming down to earth. [Revelation 19:11]

The solemn feasts will be revisited; [Ezekiel 46:9] and the special day of Divine worship will be as under the old covenant, on the sabbath day. [Ezekiel 46:12d]

The land of greater Israel will be apportioned to the saved people of the twelve tribes of Israel. [Ezekiel 47:21 & 48:2-7 & 22-27]

I am not trying to interpret Roman Catholic theology but I think you partially have the host elevated in the church in the 'Monstrace' and return the sacrament to the Tabernacle is in part because your ' . . . remembrance of Him, [I Cor. 11:24 & 26] until He comes again.' We believe that we remember our Lord until He comes for His church and that we gain spiritually by receiving the elements of His Body and blood.

Just as we look back on the Cross and remember Him until He comes, so too in the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth, we will keep the Old Testament solemn feasts as a memory of the forshadowing shedding of the lamb's blood for our sins under the Old Testament, and yet always keeping in mind that it was, in fact, the blood of Jesus on the Cross that atoned for our sins [I John 2:2] that made possible our journey to and through the Millennial reign of Christ on earth [Revelation 20:2,3,4,5,6,7] and to and into 'the new Heaven.' [Revelation 21:1]

As God ends the vision of Ezekiel he does not say the 'Ark of the Covenant' was there, but rather the 'Lord' is there. [48:35]

This view is also corroborated and strengthened by Messianic Christian Jews.

 

Hi Bob,

You wrote, "Acts 2 does not say that Jesus is now sitting on David's throne. No point in making that up."

You say that Acts 2 doesn't say this, but that's exactly what Acts 2 says, as I've shown above:

"Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants UPON HIS THRONE, [David] foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses" (Acts 2:30ff).

Peter tells us that (1) David prophesied that one of his descendants would ascend his throne, (2) David, in Psalm 16, is speaking of Christ's resurrection, (3) Christ has risen from the dead, and this has been witnessed.

You can say that Peter isn't saying something, but with Scripture, we can verify whether he actually said it, and he did.

 

Bob wrote, "Acts 2 does not say that Jesus is now sitting on David's throne. No point in making that up."

Hmmm Acts 2 says "Jesus is NOW sitting on DAVID's Throne" you say?

I did not see it in your quote above -

lets see it from NASB --

Acts 2
27 BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
28 "YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.'
29 "" Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30 ""And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE,
31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
32 ""This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
33 ""Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God,[/i] and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
34 ""For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: " THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, ""SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
35 UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.'''
36 ""Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ this Jesus whom you crucified.''


#1. Peter is claiming that the promise that the Messiah would not undergo decay - is fulfilled when God raised Him from the dead.

#2. It still does not say "Christ is NOW" sitting on David's throne NOR does it call the Throne of David - the Throne of God in Heaven.

#3. Fulfillment of the David throne is possible by the post-Rev 20 "Throne on Earth" that we see in Rev 21 alone.

This is evident even from Heb 11 because we have Enoch in heaven without "Receiving what was promised" since (as we are told in Romans 4) the "promise" was that the saints would inherit the EARTH. Just as we see in Daniel 7 when the final victory is complete over the beast - the saints finally are given the Earth and all persecution ends.

So there is no "Christ is NOW sitting on David's throne" verbage in Acts 2 - though I can see how your view "needs it".

Peter tells us [1] that David's descendant - the Messiah would not undergo decay.

[2] Christ has RISEN from the DEAD

Peter places the resurrection as a necessary step to one day occupying the earthly throne of David.

What Peter did not say "is that Christ is now sitting on DAVID's throne" - He says He is sitting on "GOD's throne".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hi Bob,

You wrote, "What Peter did not say 'is that Christ is now sitting on DAVID's throne' - He says He is sitting on 'GOD's throne'."

Well, let's look at the passage and see if this is true.

"Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants UPON HIS THRONE, he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses" (Acts 2:30ff).

What does "his throne" refer to? God's throne or David's throne? Who does "his" refer to? God or David?

 

The problem is that I keep forgetting that "the Blessed Virgin" topic is Carsons way of talking about God seated on His Throne - and that throne belonging to David.

In 2 Sam 7:12-13 (which Peter might be referencig) God "is already seated on HIS (God's) throne"[] and He is speaking to David.

God the Son is already on the throne of the Universe as He speaks to David.

He is not "predicting" that one day God the Son will finally make it to the throne of the Universe - David's throne.

Also David had many generations of descendants that were seated on his throne after that time.

The "New" throne - that would truly be David's - is not God handing over HIS throne to David - it is the New Heaven and the New Earth - where the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and Christ seated on that throne On Earth - (after the Real 1000 years which happens after Christ REALLY comes again) - is that throne of David. God literally enthroned in Christ as King on Earth -

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan,

Your summary was excellent and well within Biblical perimeters.

Ask Carson Weber if Jesus to this point in time has ever been Ruler in Israel? As I read the Bible He refused being King of the Jews on His Palm Sunday entrance into the Beloved City. But one day, future, Jesus will become Ruler in Israel [Micah 5:2d] and His government and theocracy [Isaiah 9:6c] will extend around the world. [Zechariah 14:9 & 16]

I have noticed that Amillennialists will never stay with the Biblical statements like the above references and explanations; watch!

 

Hi Bob,

I sincerely apologize, but I could not follow your previous post. I read it about three times and couldn't understand your answer. Call me stupid, but I just couldn't put together the pieces of the puzzle.

Would you, in all simplicity, answer with a (1) or with a (2)?

You originally wrote, "What Peter did not say 'is that Christ is now sitting on DAVID's throne' - He says He is sitting on 'GOD's throne'."

I then replied, Well, let's look at the passage and see if this is true.

"Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants UPON HIS THRONE, he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses" (Acts 2:30ff).

What does "his throne" refer to? (1) God's throne or (2) David's throne?

Thanks!

 

Seated on God's Throne in vs 34 "The LORD said to my LORD (YHWH) SIT at My Right HAND"

Vs 33 "Exaulted to the Right Hand of the Father" -
God's Throne - not David's.

Christ was ALREADY seated on God's Throne at the time He was speaking to David. ALL agree.

And David had ALREADY had many of his own descendants seated on his throne by the time Peter makes his statement in Acts 2. ALL agree.

(That is not the hard part Carson, I am just stating the obvious that ALL agree to so far).


But in vs 30 we see commentary about a promise made historically to David by God. "He PROMISED to seat one of his descendants on his throne".

That is a promise of a future event made to David. All Agree. Peter KEEPS it in that future tense.

But as we note it is NOT a change in the heavenly throne - as though it were handed over to David or that it ever WAS David's.

The event referenced in vs 30 was future to David's time - and is STILL future to our own time.

It is fulfilled in Rev 21 when (after the 1000 years) Christ is seated on an Earthly Throne - the one we see in Rev 21 "ON Earth".

This is David's Earthly Throne - that will THEN be established again ON EARTH and (actually then in Rev 21) occupied by Christ.

It is a prediction. Just as 1Cor 15 makes it clear that Christ is seated on the Heavenly throne waiting for events to be worked out - and that Rev 21 fullfillment to occur.

IN Christ,

Bob

 

Hi Bob,

You answered, "God's Throne - not David's.".

Thank you for your answer.

Here is what Peter says about David: "Being therefore a prophet and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that [God] would set one of [David's] descendants upon [God's] throne, [David] foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses" (Acts 2:30ff).

I've placed your answer in the above passage. In place of "his", I placed "God's".

Is this your interpretation? Am I correctly representing what you believe?

 

But David's throne was NOT the throne in heaven - it was on Earth when Christ spoke to him AND it is a future throne on EARTH that is referenced - since obviously at the time Christ spoke this promise to David - Christ was ALREADY God and was ALREADY seated on His heavenly throne.

The NEW thing would be for Him to be seated ON EARTH - on a throne on Earth. And we see that in Rev 22:1-4.

 

Hi Bob,

If I'm interpreting you correctly (you don't have a very good track record at answering my questions directly and you can be a bit enigmatic, so it's hard to know whether I am interpreting you correctly), you are saying that in the following passage..

"Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants upon his throne, he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses" (Acts 2:30ff).

..Peter is not saying that the resurrection is the fulfillment of the promise: "he would set one of his descendants upon his throne",

and that Peter is saying that the promise "he would set one of his descendants upon his throne" is merely upheld and allowed for in the still-yet-to-come-future by the fact of Jesus' resurrection.

The problem I see with your interpretation is that it doesn't flow. Peter says that David actually foresaw and spoke of Christ's resurrection when David made this prophecy. This would indicate fulfillment in the action of the resurrection, and any further putting off of the fulfillment - in my eyes - is a faulty and odd juxtaposition upon the text.

Peter says:
1. David makes a prophecy of Christ's enthronement
2. In this prophecy, David foresaw & spoke of the resurrection

The obvious conclusion is that Christ's resurrection is the fulfillment of the prophecy. It just doesn't follow to say that Peter is saying that Christ's resurrection allows for the prophecy to be fulfilled at some point in the future.

Nowhere does Peter say what you are asserting.

[ June 28, 2003, 01:20 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]