In Christ and the Blessed Virgin

I think you will find that Almighty God shares His grace with us, [Ephesians 2:8] but not necessarily His glory. God does not give us His glory but rather His grace and that through a faith/trust in Him as our only Savior. When the offered gift is received we welcome grace, His unmerited favor toward human sinners. And verse nine reminds us that we can never boast in our salvation because it was only a received gift from God.

Although church rules at times are good and prove to be a guide for us, yet keeping these rules do not keep us in grace or in the faith. This is the meaning of justification by faith as duly noted by the Apostle Paul in Romans 5:1.

'Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.'

Moses tired to see God face to face, but he was not able to endure the brightness of His resplendent and other world glory. He hid in the cleft of the rock. If Moses could not endure the glory of God, we might begin to get the picture that we are not capable in a human body to receive glory. When Saul and the Apostle John got too close to God ' . . . he fell at His feet as dead.'

 

Carson,

As for the rest of your post, if you don't have anything to say, then don't
say anything at all.

Yes, Carson, that's exactly how your descriptin of the metaphorical, ontological
and metaphysical connection between Mary and God impressed me.

Try to run that by a group of Junior Sunday Schoolers to get some
Blank Looks . This must be the Mystical Catholic Confusionism at its best !!


In Christ and the Blessed Woman at the Well,
Singer

 

Singer --

Kindly go somewhere and

STICK IT IN YER EAR!!!




I am getting real tired of such character assassinations around here!!!

(Remember, Bishop Athanasius SLAPPED heretic Arius at the Nicene Council. There is a time for irenic conversation and time to roll up yer sleeves and git at it!!)

 

At Ease, Brother !
It amazes me how much we look alike; beard and all; especially if you'd
put on a Stetson Hat and some Wrangler jeans and take off that dress.

Singer

P.S.
Dont' forget the woman at the well, you've gotta contend with
her in Heaven; Oh....and Me Too. Are YOU saved?

"The trying of your faith worketh patience" James 1:3
At Ease, Brother !

 

I have a question directed to those who believe in the diety of Mary.

it is said that Mary is sinless, then why is she offering a sin offering after her days of puificatin

Luke 2:22

"And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accompished they went to Jerusalem, to present Him to the Lord"
vs 24
"And to offer a sacrifice for according to that which is said in the law of the Lord , a pair of turtle doves, or two young pigeons"
This represents a sacrific for sin found in Leviticus 12:6
"And when the days of her purification are fulfilled,...she shall bring a lamb of the first year, for a burn offering, and a young pigeon turtle dove for a sin offering "
vs 8
"and if she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtle doves or two young pigeons , the one for a burnt offering; the other for a sin offering and the priest shall make an attonement for her, and she shall be clean "

also notice what Mary herself says about the Lord

Luke 1:46
"and Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,"
vs 47
"And my spirit hath rejoyced in God my Savior"
only those who sin are in need of a Savior

Mary wasn't even filled with the Holy Spirit until after the ressurection of Jesus

Acts 1:13
"And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode Peter, and James, and John,..."
vs 14
"These all continued in one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus and His brethren "
----notice that not only Mary was in the room but also the brothers of Jesus.

Acts 2vs1

"And when the day of pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place."
---these are the same they in Acts 1:13-14
vs 4
"and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit...."

see what revelation says of the one who is the "queen of heaven" Rev 16:4-8 do you really want to partake with the so called "queen of heaven" which by the way is not Mary for Mary is numbered amonst the believers. also read Jerimiah chapter 7 and chapter 44 as a starter to see how God feels about worshipping the "queen of heaven"

This type of worship is not new it is as old as the days of nimrod which thrugh the years was incorporated into the Roman church which eventually incorporated into "The Roman Catholic" church. My whole family is Roman Catholic and so was I until God revealed to me the truth.

I am not saying that those who worship in the catholioc church are unsaved, but those who don't worship Jesus and approach the throne on the merits of what Christ and only on what Crist has done had better study the word of God and see what it says. not some great author or what our priest and pastors or rabbi's etc. say, but what does God's word say?

thats all I Have to say for now and please don't read into this that I am bashing catholics, if I am bashing any thing it is the politics of the religion.

One thing one must ask themselves and that is ,"Is Jesus being lifted up and glorified or am I sharing that glory with someone else"

by the way why doesnt John when he is takin to the third heaven even make mention of seeing Mary there? after all it is mentioned in this debate that she has a throne beside God, well I see Gods throne but where's Mary's? or even the mention of her name?

 

You will not get an answer because nobody here believes in the diety of Mary.

God Bless you

John

 

You will not get an answer because nobody here believes in the diety of Mary.

God Bless you

John </font>[/QUOTE]Let me rephrase that then, how about the divinity or the "queenship" or as one that one day we are to bow down to or in other words one that has any kind of authority (that belongs to God alone) at all. or is worthy of our worship. I was once a catholic and am familiar with the teachings of thier faith.

I am really not sure of the word I am looking for but what I am getting at is what makes any one think that Mary was anything more than a sinner saved by grace.

I thank you for pointing that out there John by why didn't you respond to her so called sinlessness question? and too the rest of the text?

In Christ

[ July 02, 2003, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: JesusisGod2 ]

 

When you use language like this it tells me that you do not understand what the Catholic Church teaches about Mary. I myself am not articulate enough to give you a proper explanation to your questions. Here is a Web site that can better explain the Catholic teachings regarding Mary. I hope that you read it and at least understand what we believe. You do not have to agree.

Some Catholic thoughts of Mary

God Bless You

John

 

Hey John, I went to the sight and started reading it and will return when time permits.

My whole point is that I read a lot of the responses on this post and all the catholic response seem to be that Mary is something other than a sinner saved by grace.

But the catholic church lifts her up like she is God I will read stuff on the sight that you have sent me, but let me ask you this

do I need to read the Koran to know that the muslim teaching is contrary to scripture?

Do I need to read confusious to know that buddism is wrong?

The scripture tell us to honor God and Him only, but by praying to Mary who is a sinner like the rest of us, honors Mary.

Jesus is the only name given to man for salvation
Acts 4:12
"... for there is no other name under heaven given among men , whereby we must be saved.

And from my experiences in the past there is no winning this debate. and by the way the reason I used the word diety in the first place is because that is how the catholics look at Mary, whether you want to admit that or not. early on in this post someone has said that she is Gods wife?

That statement right there imply's diety or divinity and definatly authority for how can one be married to a King and not be a Queen. and that in being Queen has authority over Jesus after all God says to obey your father and your mother and would not put a burden on us that He would not follow Himself.

Unless this person is saying that Mary is the bride or wife of Christ, but would'nt this be incest after all she is His earthly mother. which most catholics seem to think that she is His heavely mother as well.

it also implies that Mary is of the Godhead! otherwise how could she be married to God? God wouldn't marry someone He created, would He?

I know that the catholics say that thier doctrine hasn't changed in at least 1,700 years, but I can
give you one thing that they have just changed recently and that is the statement that the pope made that there is no hell!

and when I was involved in the church years ago they taught more or less that Mary was devine and held a place of deity, now they may have changed that stance, I dont know.

but anyway God bless and I will look at that sight and try to understand what they teach today. I just dont understand the worship of a created being when God says it is wrong. and when you pray to Mary that is worship! no matter how one justifies it.

God bless you John

[ July 02, 2003, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: JesusisGod2 ]

 

J-I-G

I will answer your question, but you will not accept it. You will not accept it because it is quite obvious that despite being raised in the Catholic Church, you are clueless as to what the Faith teaches.

The Blessed Virgin offered the appropriate sacrifices for the same reason that our Lord submitted to baptism for the remission of sins in the Jordon at the hands of John the Baptizer:

they were children of the Old Covenant and as faithful, covenant keeping children, they kept all the ordinances which they had to in order to be "lawkeepers" and "obedient to the covenant of God".

As for the sharing of authority with the Blessed Virgin, don't you realize that this is not only the very thing that the Father did with Adam and Eve in the Garden, but also that he does with all believers, for we shall "rule and reign" with Him in eternity. What is THAT if it is not the sharing of the authority which proceeds from God alone?

I remember a Fundamentalist pastor I used to listen to who used to almost gloat over those passages which show that believers share in Christ's authority. He used to say that all he wanted was to be the boss over Hummelstown Pennsylvania and he'd be happy for all eternity.

Why does this same man, or any Fundamentalist "Bible believer" have no problem with themselves having authority from God, but they do have massive problems with the Blessed Virgin having authority.

Strikes me as hypocritical in the least.

Cordially in Christ through the Blessed Virgin,

Brother Ed

 

Hi JesusisGod2,

You wrote, "all the catholic response seem to be that Mary is something other than a sinner saved by grace."

Mary was saved by grace but she was not a sinner. She was saved by the grace of Jesus Christ at her conception, which can be comparable to the original state of Adam and Eve, except for the fact that she didn't have the preternatural gifts of immortality, impassibility, and integrity. While she was given the gift of supernatural grace at the moment of her conception, she was not given the original preternatural gifts.

But the catholic church lifts her up like she is God

It depends on what you mean by that statement. All of us are becoming like God as we grow in holiness. As Christians, we actually come to participate in the divine nature (See 2 Peter 1:4), and since Mary is fully clothed with the sanctification of the Holy Spirit, she is very much "like God", as we will be - to one degree or another - some day (and are already).

The scripture tell us to honor God and Him only

You are incorrect. The fourth commandment is to "Kabad your father and your mother". This Hebrew word means both "to honor" and "to glorify". Jesus, who followed the moral Law perfectly, honored and glorified Mary more perfectly than any of us ever could; he beat us to the chase.

but by praying to Mary who is a sinner like the rest of us, honors Mary.

You are incorrect. Mary is not a sinner in your own book, even if you believe that she was a sinner while on earth, for no one in heaven is able to sin.

Jesus is the only name given to man for salvation

Amen, brother.

Paragraph 432 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:

"The name 'Jesus' signifies that the very name of God is present in the person of his Son, made man for the universal and definitive redemption from sins. It is the divine name that alone brings salvation, and henceforth all can invoke his name, for Jesus united himself to all men through his Incarnation,[Cf. Jn 3:18 ; Acts 2:21 ; Acts 5:41 ; 3Jn 7 ; Rom 10:6-13 .] so that 'there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.'[Acts 4:12 ; cf. Acts 9:14 ; Jam 2:7 .]"

it also implies that Mary is of the Godhead! otherwise how could she be married to God? God wouldn't marry someone He created

There are two problems with the above statement. First, Mary's title as "spouse of the Holy Spirit" is only analagous due to the high degree of friendship she shared (and still shares in heaven) with the Holy Spirit.

Secondly, I wholly agree that God didn't marry anyone he created, but the premise of your argument is faulty for God also wouldn't, rationally speaking, adopt someone He created as his son or daughter. The just relationship between a Creator and a creature is a Master/Slave relationship. To be called one's "son", one must share the nature of the "Father"; the nature of Fatherhood is to share one's life, and no creature shares the divine nature. That would be blasphemous. However, in Christianity, we believe that God has indeed shared his divine nature with creation, thus truly making us participants of his very nature, adopting us as his sons in the only Son of God.

the statement that the pope made that there is no hell!

Would you please give the actual quote and a source citation? Pope John Paul II is adamently clear that there is a hell.

If you click on the following link: http://smithbrad.nventure.com/pope.htm you will discover this:

"In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him."

The above link includes the actual texts of what Pope John Paul II said, for clarification.

I just dont understand the worship of a created being when God says it is wrong.

I do not understand either; this is probably why I do not worship any created being, including Mary.

when you pray to Mary that is worship

You are incorrect. "To pray" means "to ask". If this equates with worship, then whenever I ask you to pray for me, I am, in essence, worshipping you - according to your logic.

 

Hi JesusisGod2,

You wrote, "As far as Mary having no sin, then why was she offering a sin sacrifice and a burnt offering (see Luke 2:22-24) according to the law of Moses in Lev 12 see especially verse 6).

First of all, I think it is amazing how people think something like the Catholic Church that has been around for two thousand years will not have encountered such basic objections before. In fact, St. Thomas Aquinas has a nice section in the Summa Theologiae (III:37:4) on precisely this topic, which is interesting in that in his day the question was academic as everyone already believed that Mary was entirely sinless by a miracle of God's grace (just as we will all be entirely sinless one day).

The basic answer is that Mary submitted to the childbirth purification ritual - with its mandatory sin offering - for the same reasons that Jesus submitted to circumcision (a purification ritual symbolizing being made spiritually clean; cf. Deut. 10:16, 30:6, Jer. 4:4, Rom. 2:29), celebrated the Passover (which was also a sin offering so that God's wrath would pass over the household), and baptism (another purification ritual; Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21).

In fact, if there were any difficulty in explaining Mary's submission to the purification ritual, it would be ten times harder to explain Christ's submission to these rituals since he was instrinsically and infinitely holy, while Mary was merely rendered entirely sinless by God's grace, as we shall be.

The first reason Christ submitted to circumcision and Passover was that the Mosaic Law required it, and he (like Mary) was "born under the Law" (Gal. 4:4).

The second reason is that to remove any cause for criticism and slander on the part of others, Christ submitted to things in the Mosaic Law of which he had no personal need or requirement (cf. Matt. 17:24-27).

The third reason is that Christ did these things in order to provide an example for others - an example of obedience to the Mosaic Law with regard to circumcision and Passover, and an example of obedience to the Christian Law in the case of baptism.

There were other reasons as well (such as the fact that these rituals pointed toward Christ), but the three that have been given are a more than adequate explanation of why Mary submitted to the Mosaic Law ritual of purification after childbirth (including its sin offering). She was born under the Law, she wished to give no occasion for slander in her conduct, and she wished to give an example to others.

Here is the most important part of what the Angelic Doctor has to say on the matter:

Objection 1. It would seem that it was unfitting for the Mother of God to go to the Temple to be purified. For purification presupposes uncleanness. But there was no uncleanness in the Blessed Virgin, as stated above (III:27-28). Therefore she should not have gone to the Temple to be purified.

I answer that, As the fulness of grace flowed from Christ on to His Mother, so it was becoming that the mother should be like her Son in humility: for "God giveth grace to the humble," as is written James 4:6. And therefore, just as Christ, though not subject to the Law, wished, nevertheless, to submit to circumcision and the other burdens of the Law, in order to give an example of humility and obedience; and in order to show His approval of the Law; and, again, in order to take away from the Jews an excuse for calumniating Him: for the same reasons He wished His Mother also to fulfil the prescriptions of the Law, to which, nevertheless, she was not subject.

Reply to Objection 1. Although the Blessed Virgin had no uncleanness, yet she wished to fulfil the observance of purification, not because she needed it, but on account of the precept of the Law. Thus the Evangelist says pointedly that the days of her purification "according to the Law" were accomplished; for she needed no purification in herself.

I am not trying to bash catholics

I understand. If I were in your shoes, I would be asking the same questions.

I was cathoilic as a child up to about 23 years (I'm 45 now) old and i have to admit I was not a heavy practicing one either.

The door is always open for your return, brother. Here are two websites for you:

http://www.chnetwork.org
http://www.catholicoutlook.com

God bless you.

 

Yelsew, you ignored Jesus' submission to Passover and baptism, which he did have a choice in.

 

Hi Yelsew,

You wrote, "Yes, I guess I did at that. There was nothing highly unusual about a jew celebrating Passover or being Baptized."

Of course not.. because Jews are sinners, which leaves my argument wide open and unanswered on your part.