Foundered

Singer · Apr 18, 2003

Distraught or disillusioned might describe my experience on
message boards.

Debates/discussions theoretically should be good for a soul.
Possibly, that is a fallacy.

In just three or four threads, I noted the following one-liners
of which I contributed also.

________________________________________________

Again, your understanding of the idiom is flawed.
Your entire last post was nothing but your own opinion
Also your understanding of the Trinity is wrong
Your understanding of the expression "in the name of" is flawed.

What a wild imagination you have, and a complete disregard for Scripture
To make up a story like this is almost blasphemous.
If God says it, why don't you believe it?
Perhaps because the original topic is so totally irrelevant to
actually accomplishing anything fruitful.

I am sorry, but that is a silly explanation
You totally missed the point.
Your concept of the Christian life is wrong.
Forgive me for not believing you.

I think I could get ''reasoned '' to death
Well...I don't really understand your point here
What does it matter how you guys SHOULD view us; you aren't
going to change that view.
.......dodging the question "again" --
I think you got it backwards.
______________________________________________

Lack of unity among christians brought me to this board to seek
answers.

Lack of unity among christians is leading me away from ALL boards;
for this is no solution.

I'd never dreamed there could be so many topics to disagree on.

Reminds me of a cow of mine....
*She loved grain all her young life and ate heartily at every chance.
The trick is to not over feed an animal on grain or they will founder.
The result is diahrrea, stomach ache, lack of production, dejection,
discouragement and a staunch dislike for grain. She got in the grain
bin one day and foundered. Horses will even lose their hooves and
tail, fail to breed, become useless and a detriment to their constituents.

Just possibly I've gotten an overdose of biblical debate; but I had
set out to find a way to resolve my questions or to flood myself
on the word to the point of exhaustion.

At this point, I think I'm foundered because I've acquired symptoms
of the aforementioned cow and horse.

*Toenails are still intact however

BobRyan · Apr 18, 2003

#1. Debate boards are very hard place to "live".

Nuture, growth and encouragement must come from worship, devotion, fellowship groups outside of "debates" even debates on a good board like the Baptist Board.

There are other sections to this board that provide for that.

#2. Debate boards ARE good for digging into a question - checking your ego at the door and going searching for truth no matter how it "contradicts" your present tradition. "ouch that one will hurt".

#3 I have seldom ever seen a person "change doctrinal POV" on a debate board - but I believe that it happens. Hopefully for the good.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Apr 18, 2003

Something to think about.

When your doctrinal position is "weak" it often suffices to say "nanny-nanny-boo boo I don't listen to you" (or something close to that).

But at the end of the day - you have to live with your own views of God and His Word. The nanny-nanny-boo-boo defense does not "hold very well" when you are alone and you realize that there is little more to your reasoning on that point than "I don't think about the problems that people like you raise from scripture that show my doctrinal beliefs could be in error".

You see a lot of that on the boards - but...

In Christ,

Bob

Singer · Apr 18, 2003

Bob,

See...........that's part of the entanglement.

... checking your ego at the door and going searching for truth
no matter how it "contradicts" your present tradition. "ouch
that one will hurt".
]
Truth seems to only be in the eyes of the beholder (like beauty).

One man's truth is another mans foolishness.

Saw many of my old sect members today at a funeral and they are
so ''truthful'' that they even named their group "TRUTH".

(Look it up on the internet...it's also known as 2x2)

They are the original truthers, straight from Jesus and the rest of
us are the lost sheep; the blind leading the blind. They are the
narrow path that leads to life; if you don't believe me...ask them.

Now did you know that truth...?

BobRyan · Apr 19, 2003

I have to admit - 2x2 is new to me.

You are correct - everyone views themselves as "having the truth".

But this is healthy if you think about it. Imagine trying to reach the Christians who said "sure I belong to the wrong church and we don't teach as much truth as we should - but that is ok with me".

ON the other hand if you find a genuine Christian who says "I belong to this church because it has the truth - more accurate than any other I have found AND I would leave tomorrow IF I found one with even more truth" then you have a real starting point. And a very rare find. Few people say that - but some do and often they change churches.

Lets say you are a Baptist and someone goes from being JW to being Catholic to being Lutheran to being Baptist. There is an argument for saying that at each step they viewed themselves as "having the truth" but were always "open to more". Again - a rare find but that is exactly what the "Spirit of truh" in John 6 who leads INTO all truth is looking for.

The problem is we often "Settle" in one group - as if "The Holy Spirit is done".

In Christ,

Bob

AITB · Apr 19, 2003

Originally posted by Singer:
Distraught or disillusioned might describe my experience on
message boards.

Debates/discussions theoretically should be good for a soul.
Possibly, that is a fallacy.
Click to expand...

I think hugs and smiles do a lot more for the soul, overall

Lack of unity among christians brought me to this board to seek
answers.

Lack of unity among christians is leading me away from ALL boards;
for this is no solution.

I'd never dreamed there could be so many topics to disagree on.
Click to expand...

Yes, it's amazing isn't it?

On the one hand you could consider that there is value in bringing your unique God-given gifts to discussion boards. OTOH if posting on boards discourages you then it's probably best for you to stay away - I can't believe God wants you discouraged.

Maybe He has other places in mind for you to go love Him and other people

But of course, you're welcome to stay if you want to. I've enjoyed interacting with you here, Singer - I want you to know that but I won't try to keep you - whether you stay is between you and the Lord. If you decide to leave then may the LORD bless and keep you wherever you go
Helen

Singer · Apr 19, 2003

"And never is heard a discouraging word
and the skies are not cloudy all day"

Thanks Helen, your personality reminds me of that song,
"Home, Home on the Range".

Just maybe my mood has been altered by the past few days of
clouds and rain here. (Much needed I admit), but I seem to reflect
the weather for some reason.

Agreed....hugs and kisses are better than debates....maybe I'll
go visit my grandkids as they're always "up".

Bob, thanks for the input. Your response deserves mine which
will follow. Today's a busy one.

Smile Singer...Smile

AITB · Apr 19, 2003

Originally posted by Singer:

Thanks Helen, your personality reminds me of that song,
"Home, Home on the Range".
Click to expand...

Thanks - I do my best, as God enables me.

I do have times of discouragement too, though, in actuality.

Just maybe my mood has been altered by the past few days of
clouds and rain here. (Much needed I admit), but I seem to reflect
the weather for some reason.
Click to expand...

I think most of us do!

Agreed....hugs and kisses are better than debates....maybe I'll
go visit my grandkids as they're always "up".
Click to expand...

You have grandkids? Neat!

Enjoy them - you're right that children can brighten up a day!

love in Jesus
Helen

Singer · Apr 19, 2003

(Bob's Quote)

"ON the other hand if you find a genuine Christian who says "I belong
to this church because it has the truth - more accurate than any other
I have found AND I would leave tomorrow IF I found one with even more
truth" then you have a real starting point. And a very rare find. Few people
say that - but some do and often they change churches."

(Singer)

Actually I was finding fault with that approach. (If I may present the
opposite view here) That appears to me that one has not found
the peace that passeth all understanding with their first encounter
with the Holy Spirit. They are ''hopscotching'' around always in pursuit
of a better church with hopefully a better message when the message
of our Lord (The Gospel) is so obvious in the first place. To me.....the
goal is not to find the perfect church, but to find the Perfect Savior.

And of course, the savior is not to be found in that ''better church'' down
the street, He is to be found in our hearts. I do give credit to many
denominations that do a wonderful work of presenting that gospel and
in that sense they are important.

I've known a couple who have left the 2x2 Organization to join the Catholic
Church and it seems to me that they are vulnerable to yet another ''fad''
that might come along and lure them on. To do so seems to me to be a
thing of pride as the emphasis is put on finding that better church instead
of on Jesus, who isn't even necessarily found in a church.

Am I making sense, Bob . . . ?

Helen: One wife, 3 kids, 5 grandkids and a dog.

Singer

p.s. debt too !!

BobRyan · Apr 19, 2003

Singer,

I don't doubt that some people are looking in the wrong places for the wrong answer.

But my point is that "Christ is the Way the TRUTH and the LIFE".

Step one - the Mormon accepts Christ as their savior. They are "saved".

Step two - they become Catholic. and continue following in the paths set out for them by "the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE". They continue to have "a love of the truth" and continue to be willing sacrifice for it.

The John 16 Spirit of truth CONTINUES to "lead them into all truth" for as Christ said "I have many more things to tell you but you can not bear them now - but the Spirit of truth WILL GUIDE you into all truth".

Step three - they become Lutheran. And continue in that walk with Christ started while a Mormon - STILL walking with that SAME Christ - but learning every day.

Step four - they become a Baptist. As that walk has lead them into more and more light - more and more truth.

Each step came with a sacrifice - but at each point they are learning more about "the WAY the TRUTH and the Life - Jesus Christ" the one whom they accepted at the start - and Who has lead them each step of the way.

In Christ,

Bob

Singer · Apr 20, 2003

Bob:

Guess I have to accept that God can use his children in all
denominations. For one, I won't discount that there are some
spirit filled Catholics. Another, I won't condemn all Mormons for
not worshipping the right God and I can't even condemn the 2x2
(Cult?) that I was raised in as misleading people.

Along with that would arise the next deduction......

There is also no "Right" church.

It's all in the heart.

Singer

BobRyan · Apr 20, 2003

Singer,

You are missing the point.

#1. In my scenario I began with a spirit-filled born-again saved "Mormon" who recieves the full effect of "I have many MORE things to say to you but you can NOT bear them now... the Spirit of Truth WILL LEAD you into all truth" John 16.

#2. There are thousands of Christian groups in existence EACH with a slightly different POV on some point. By definition they can not all be correct on all points of doctrine to which they hold in CONTRAST to each other. At BEST one is completely correct on all of its stated doctrines .. at WORST they are all equally in error. This does not mean there is salvation in only ONE - since the scenario STARTS with salvation in the Mormon church and shows it progressing through each church in the sequence.

In my scenario I do NOT take the "WORST" case path above.

So given these simple and obvious facts that we can admit to - no matter what group/church/denomination we are in - I provide a "sample scenario" of a SAVED Christian going from one state of truth mixed with error - to less and less states of "error" mixed in.

As Christ said in Matt 16 - error mixed in with truth is "like leaven" and as Christians we are to work against mixing error in with Truth.

As Christ said in John 16 MANY MORE things are available to us in the realm of truth and the Holy Spirit - the Spirit of TRUTH has a primary role of guiding us down that path.

You seem to take all this as "offensive" to the PC view of the groups. Yet each point of the above is obvious to all. Even you have not found any flaw in any point other than you do not find it to flatter the groups because it does not allow all groups to be "equally correct" when by definition they DO in factt DIFFER on some point of doctrine.

I guess you will have to work out that connundrum in your own way. As it is - the example scenario illustrates the point well and it starts with the "saved" condition.

In Christ,

Bob

Singer · Apr 20, 2003

Bob:

Guess I find it surprising that you start your scenario with a spirit
filled and saved Mormon. Let's suppose that this Mormon never
leaves his church in his quest for learning. Church hopping isn't
necessarily the answer. If each step upwards leads to greater
learning and more wisdom, then I've finally arrived at the top with
my decision to not affiliate myself with any church.

And.....for each individual who might be leaving a certain church in
his search for a ''better'' one, he's leaving behind a friend who is
of the mindset that he has already FOUND that right church and
might question the one leaving as to his wisdom in doing so.

If you really support your scenario, you have to admit that the church
you are now in is only a stepping stone on to something greater. For
myself, I skipped over the SDA Segment due to reading up on their
doctrines and from information gained from Sunday worshippers.
That was a great time savings for me.

Constantly I question what I can DO to improve my standing with
God....only to deny that I can DO anything. I would have to go back to
the case of the spirit filled and saved Mormon who may as well stay
where he is and not pester himself with thinking that he is gaining
in righteousness by church-hopping !!

Singer

BobRyan · Apr 21, 2003

Singer - you either "LOVE the Way the TRUTH and the LIFE" and are "HUNGERING and THIRSTING for MORE" or you don't. This is true for all of us, no matter WHAT church you are in.

In Matt 16 When Peter gave his great statement affirming truth and faith in Christ - Jesus blessed him. When Jesus then lead Peter to the NEXT truth - and Peter baulked - Jesus addressed him as "SATAN".

Singer,
And.....for each individual who might be leaving a certain church in
his search for a ''better'' one, he's leaving behind a friend who is
of the mindset that he has already FOUND that right church and
might question the one leaving as to his wisdom in doing so.
Click to expand...

Each Mormon who left the Mormon church could say the same.

Each Jew that joined the Christian church could say the same.

Singer
If you really support your scenario, you have to admit that the church
you are now in is only a stepping stone on to something greater.
Click to expand...

Salvation is not IN a denomination but IN "The WAy the TRUTH and the LIFE". IN Christ alone. Loving the Truth is loving the WAY the TRUTH and the life. Once you do that - you are no longer "tied to your denomination" you are "tied to Christ" ALONE.

I would leave my present church in a heartbeat IF Christ showed me that HE had MORE truth, MORE light in another group and thus His SPIRIT of TRUTH lead me to that place. The SACRIFICE that is made for "truth" is not to stop us from accepting it.

In Christ,

Bob

Singer · Apr 21, 2003

(Bob - Quote)
Singer - you either "LOVE the Way the TRUTH and the LIFE" and are
"HUNGERING and THIRSTING for MORE" or you don't. This is true for all
of us, no matter WHAT church you are in.

(Singer)
My presence here should support that.

(Bob - Quote)
Salvation is not IN a denomination but IN "The WAy the TRUTH and
the LIFE". IN Christ alone. Loving the Truth is loving the WAY the
TRUTH and the life. Once you do that - you are no longer "tied to
your denomination" you are "tied to Christ" ALONE.

(Singer)
Christ IS my only tie because I don't have a church.

(Bob - Quote)
I would leave my present church in a heartbeat IF Christ showed
me that HE had MORE truth, MORE light in another group and thus
His SPIRIT of TRUTH lead me to that place. The SACRIFICE that is
made for "truth" is not to stop us from accepting it.

(Singer)
If you're really interested, there are plenty of groups to make the claim of
having more truth than the one you presently frequent. You might start by
typing in to your browser window words such as Methodist, Catholic, 2x2,
Cooneyite, Assembly of God, Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormon. They will even
tell you how and why they are better and will offer to connect you to local
participants who can usher you back into the fold.

BobRyan · Apr 21, 2003

Hence my presence on boards like this.

And Hence my "open door" to the JWs and Mormons that come knocking. I am more than happy to "compare notes" with them and dig into the Word of God to "see if those things are so" Acts 17:11.

My approach is strictly "open door". I have had Mormons continue their study with me for months. JWs have done a series with me for about a year. Weekly bible studies as we "discover" just exactly what is IN the Bible and what is not.

I have several Catholic books and have dialoged with a great many Catholic christians over the past years - however they "tend" not to have as much depth in God's word in general. Though some do.

In addition to attending my SDA local church - I attending a Sunday church each week as a member of the Sunday School class and hear really good sermons from the pastor who is a graduate of Moody Bible Institute and thinks of himself as a "Calvinist".

I have no "shortage" for opportunities to compare and "SEE IF those things are SO" Acts 17:11.

It all leads to deeper knowledge of Gods Word - a greater understanding of Him who IS the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE.

In Christ,

Bob

Singer · Apr 21, 2003

Well I can admire you in those practices, Bob, but can you imagine
the ridicule you open yourself up to if you only knew what your SDA
hardliners would think of you worshipping on a Sunday....

Or what your Calvinist preacher friend or the little blue haired lady in the
front row of that Protestant church would say to you if they knew you
were entertaining JWs......

Or what your Catholic "One wayers" would advise you about even
associating with Protestants and not adhering to their advice about the
RCC being the sole authorized agency to administer the gospel in the
world today......

Or what your Mormon friends must think about you not "understanding the
truths they have given you about the kingdom".

You must appear to be a Loser in the eyes of many.....As is true for myself.

Singer

BobRyan · Apr 24, 2003

Singer,

I am sure I have some camp of detractors in each group as you say. But more importantly - at the Sunday church I have a group that know me well, they know I am SDA and they hear me speak up in their Sunday School class. Their pastor knows me and hears my comments as well. And they know something about SDAs as a result that they never remotely suspected. (To be honest - I speak much more freely on these boards than in a group - when addressing points of difference).

The same is true in my own church. Those who know me well, know that this is going to be a good thing to share with people in other churches. I am very focused on a Bible-based informed basis of doctrine and enjoy sharing it when the time is right and people are not offended by the topic.

True, a lot of people with casual interest in these topics and in the beliefs of others probably don't give a negative summary a second thought regarding the mix of people I fellowship with. But I hardly notice that. They are to me - simply too knew to the idea of cross-denominational fellowship to understand what they are saying about it. I think I might have been like that at one time myself, so I try not to pick on them for it.

In Christ,

Bob

Singer · Apr 25, 2003

Re: Cross denominational fellowship

I like that term...maybe that describes me in a way.

Firstly, I rejected the exclusive claims of the 2x2Cult as the only
way to heaven and went searching for the truth. To my dismay,
other sects are out there making similar claims. It seems like
mankind is in total obsession of pursuing God.....when Jesus has
already pursued mankind.

I keep coming back to the claims of Jesus himself..........
"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life....etc."

Guess I'll never be able to discount His words in favor of those
churches who make the preposterous self-inflating claims of
superiority by appointment, habit or practice.

BobRyan · Apr 25, 2003

The Mormon that accepts Christ as their savior has already accepted "The Way the Truth and the Life" - as you say.

And you can be sure that "he is going to take them on a journey". At each step of the way they will have a chance (like Peter in Matt 16) to say "No Lord, may it never be". And Jesus may have to respond "NOW you are not setting your mind on God's interests but on man's interests". And if they persist - he may have to add "Get thee behind me Satan" just as he said to Peter in Matt 16.

It is a dynamic relationship. A fellowship that is in fact a "walk" - (Take up your cross and follow Me). Christ requires that we develop a "love of the truth" that means LEARNING more truth - not simply digging in our heels over what our tradition has labeled truth.

That is a challenge no matter what church you are in.

In Christ,

Bob

Foundered

Singer New Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

Singer New Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

AITB <img src="http://www.mildenhall.net/imagemsc/bb128

Singer New Member

AITB <img src="http://www.mildenhall.net/imagemsc/bb128

Singer New Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

Singer New Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

Singer New Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

Singer New Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

Singer New Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

Singer New Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

Useful Searches

Foundered

Singer New Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

Singer New Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

AITB <img src="http://www.mildenhall.net/imagemsc/bb128

Singer New Member

AITB <img src="http://www.mildenhall.net/imagemsc/bb128

Singer New Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

Singer New Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

Singer New Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

Singer New Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

Singer New Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

Singer New Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member