The Gathering of the Church/the Rapture

That is where IMHO
the Tribulation Period Judgement belongs
in God's plan for the ages. This purpose of
God necessitates that the Christians be
taken out of the Earth before the Tribulation
Period Judgement starts.

I've talked to three or four Messianic Jews
who beleive this verse:

Luke 21:24 (NLT):

They will be brutally killed by the sword or sent away as captives to all the nations of the world. And Jerusalem will be conquered and trampled down by the Gentiles until the age of the Gentiles comes to an end.

The Messianic Jews (Jews who beleive that
Jesus is their Messiah) believe this verse and
others teach that when the last gentile that
is going to get saved is saved, then
The Lord will come get the Gentile Age
Christians in the pretibulation rapture/resurrection
and the time when Gentiles can be
saved will come to an end. Then God
can work on His Chosen People: Yisrael.

 

Eschatologist:
I appreciate your posts. And all the peoeple said Amen!

 

Rev 3
10 "Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Agreed. And even pre-Cross the John 14 promise is that Christ GOES and prepares a place in heaven - then COMEs to gather His saints (both the living and the dead) and take them to be WITH HIM where He now IS.

Correct again. This shows that Christ raptures the church up into the air - ALL the saints - both the living and the dead - and takes us all back to heaven - to the place He has prepared for us.

A number of post trib rapture views exist.

The one I hold to says that at the return of Christ - He appears in the heavens and takes the saints to heaven as the John 14 promise shows. (This is what we call the 2nd coming)

True enough! Only the saints, only those saved, only those who are dead in Christ ("Christ" is the Greek term for the the Hebrew - "Messiah")

It is true that the wicked are raised at the end of the 1000 years and that during that 1000 years Christ reigns with His saints.

But since the 1Thess 4 event is the resurrection of the righteous saints that we see in Rev 20:4-5, then there is 1000 years between that "Taking-us-home" event and the resurrection of the Wicked.

And that is where we differ.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I agree that Rev 3:10 was far in the future to John's day. My point was simply that keeping them "from the hour of temptation" is similar to the John 17 idea of the Father keeping the saints from the evil one.

Neither of these teachings on "keeping the saints" requires that they "be gone from the earth".

In Christ,

Bob

 

This appears to be a reference his view on 2Thess 2 - right?

Do you have a quote for that?

In Christ,

Bob

 

The great tribulation is fulfilled in the dark ages. (certainly nothing will surpass that extermination of millions of Christians in centuries long persecution in terms of time)

But that does not preclude an intense persecution at the end of time.

The trumpets and seals - are simply views in history from John's day to the second coming.

The vials are yet to come - they follow the last great tribulation (shorter than the dark ages).

True - He has not returned. But on His return he will appear as is described in Rev 19 and will take the saints as we see in 1Thess 4 and the resurrection of the saints is described both by Paul (in 1Thess 4) and by John (in Rev 20:4-5) --

Luther is essentially correct - however I believe that even he viewed the persecution of the saints at that time as constituting the great tribulation.

In Christ,

Bob

 

"I will be with you always, even unto the end of the age." -Jesus

Ray, with respect, you don't seem to believe Jesus' promise.

Also, are you saying an apostate Church selected the New Testament canon and created the Nicene Creed???

 

Sorry, but 60% of the Christian
martyrs were killed in the 20th Century
(mostly by Russian and Chineese communists).

Jesus says in Matthew 24:21-22 (ASV):

21 "For then there will be a great
tribulation, such as has not occurred since
the beginning of the world until now,
nor ever will.
22 "Unless those days had been cut
short, no life would have been saved;
but for the sake of the elect
those days will be cut short.

After 1965 even man can do worse tribulation
than ever the middle ages thought of.
We have the ability to purge the whole
surface of the earth of all life.

Is killing 6 million Jews in
the 1940s not bad? -- The Great Tribulation
will be worse. Is the plague in the 1300s
that killed 25 million (1/4 the population)
of Europe not bad? -- The Great Tribulation
will be worse.

I used to think that God needed to interfer
in the affairs of mankind to punish mankind.
I now see that God has to interfer in the affairs of mankind to save mankind from
himself.

 

Events in the 20th century have been "bad" but killing 50 million Christians over a period of 6+ centuries - and bringing down the "dark ages" on the civilized world for dark-century after dark-century -- is not easily "upstaged" -- 6 million Jews or not.

The other thing to consider is that if the church of John's day and Matthew's day were reading those texts about tribulation and ALSOL having the view that Christians would NOT go through the Tribulation - WOULD they REALLY translate "missing the tribulation" as

"Lets see - this means that the Christians will be slaughtered to the tune of 50 million over a period of 12+ centuries)

When you see what Pagan and Papal Rome did to Christians over that vast period of time - you can not possibly view that as "missing out on tribulation". Indeed false expectations would have been crushed early in those centuries of darkness and death for true Christians.

In Christ,

Bob

 

"I will be with you always, even unto the end of the age." -Jesus

Ray, with respect, you don't seem to believe Jesus' promise.

Also, are you saying an apostate Church selected the New Testament canon and created the Nicene Creed??? </font>[/QUOTE]#1. The NT was written and completed and read by the saints in the first century AD. That was BEFORE the errors that formed the Catholic Church came into being.

#2. The errors that infested the church "From within" were as Paul predicted in Acts 20.

#3. The apostacy in the church was as Paul predicted in 2Thess 2 - that falling away from the truth of a historic nature that was future to his day.

In Christ,

Bob

 

My source shows loss to martyrdom
of the Catholics 33AD-1990AD - 7 Million
My source shows loss to martyrdom
to the Catholics 33AD-1990AD - 4.5 Million

What was the approximate population of
the earth in 500AD?

 

Lets see 25 million lost in the plague alone. Yet others "suppose" that there were not enough people in Europe to kill in such a short period of time. ... and yet.

Notice the loss of life at the fall of Jerusalem "alone" near the end of the first century. That did not even take 40 years - and was confined to a very small area of land - and yet huge loss of life.

At the end of the 1700's the earth had already reached its first 1 billion population milestone.

Having centuries long "exterminations" by the RCC and by pagan Rome - was more than enough.

In Christ,

Bob

 

My figures show 8,286 million called "Christian"
total 33AD-1990AD.

You have said 50 Million in 600 years.
YOu have said 50 Million in 12 centuries.
My figures show about 42 million martyrs
in the years 33AD to 1990AD.

Anyway, 50 million out of 8,286 million
is 6/10 of 1%.