The Gathering of the Church/the Rapture

To "the Harvest" you left out Rev.14:1416, showing the actual "reaping". (And this to me, claerly placwes the rapture between the trumpets and bowls). Rev.7:14 was just a preview of this event. (the seals are just the revelation of events, not necessarly placing the time of the actual fulfillment of them). 20:4 is just showing these saints now actually receiving their rewards.
Neither are separate "raptures".

The tares (add to this Rev.14:17-20) are also not a "rapture", but are simply left on earth to suffer the wrath. This is pictured figurativly as them being "reaped" as "the clusters of the vine" and thrown into the "winepress". It can even be argued that those "taken" in Matt.24 are the wicked who are destroyed, while the saints are at that point protected.

Matt.27 is a special case obviously, and afterwards, the scriptures speak towards those of us in the Church age, not the saints from before, so to us, there is one rapture (the just), two resurrections (the just, and the unjust 1000 years later).

 

This means that those who do not like the FUTURE view of John as he sees the Rev 19 return of Christ and the Rev 20 resurrection of the saints seen as the "FIRST RESURRECTION" in the future -- must ask themselves "How many future resurrections are they injecting BEFORE the FIRST resurrection?" You know - BEFORE the one in Rev 20 that begins AFTER the events of Rev 19?


Still no answer?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Then try another question ---

In that first event - of 1Thess 4 when the "Dead in Christ are raised" - at that "First Resurrection" of the saints future to John described in Rev 20:4-5, what happens to the REST that are not raised at that point in time according to your view?

Are the REST raise in "more future resurrections" that all get lumped in as "The FIRST" or are the "REST" not coming to life until AFTER the 1000 years are completed in your view?

Seems like you have a problem houston.

In Christ,

Bob

 

It isn't Rocket Surgery,
Bro Bob. The people who are not
resurrected/raptured at the FIRST resurrection
(phase one) contine to be dead or alive.
Some of the alive will die before the
FIRST resurrection (phase two). At the
FIRST resurrection (phase two) there
will also be a resurrection of the
just only.

Some conceptionally feel better if there
is one FIRST resurrection with two parts
seven years apart.

BTW, nobody ever has (and i've been asking
for like 40 years now) shown me a meaning
of FIRST that requires one and only one.

 

You make it sound like i made
this up on my own. In fact it was mentioned
to me 52 years ago when i was saved.
The multiple FIRST RESURRECTION is scriptural.
I even showed how it is strongly suggested
in Revelation 20:4 by showing two groups
of people. The two groups of people are from
two seperate resurrections delineated in
the Holy Scripture.

Here is a comparision of two
events, each including a resurrection
that is part of the FIRST RESURRECTION.

Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

1R. Jesus comes for His own
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (Rev 19:14)

2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
(1 Thess 4:16-17)
3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
(Rev 19:6-14)

4R. end of the Gentile Age
(Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
(Revelation 19)

5R. Tribulation period begins
5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
(1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
(Rev 6:12-17)

7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

8R. Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
(Romans 11)

9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
judgement.

11R. Time of joy.
11SC. Time of sorrow.

 

So you're saying that when we look at the "details" of the events of Rev 19 and 20 and see the 2nd coming in Rev 19, then the resurection of the righteous occuring at the event - in Rev 20 called "The First resurrection"... you actually want to say that the "REST" that are NOT raised at the FIRST resurrection - come to life BEFORE the 1000 years are completed? In direct contradiction to the text?

Really Ed?

Your claim is that instead of the REST being raised AFTER the 1000 years are complete -- you argue that the REST are "raised in MORE first resurrections".

So here we see you have more resurrections - not mentioned in the text - and these deal with the "REST" of the dead who were not raised in FIRST resurrection as the event occurs right at the Rev 19-20 coming of Christ.

I like your double-speak "one first resurrection - a first and a second first resurrection"...

I see - so "The first one to cross the finish line" means "all the players on the field as they come in whatever order they arrive" to you?

And you find such double-speak "compelling" Ed?

Clearly Rev 19 describes the 2nd coming - way to late for the "first of your first resurrections" correct Ed?

You are stuck with the fact that the First Resurrection (Rev 20) is an event that happens AFTER the visible 2nd coming described in Rev 19.

That is way too late for you to have "a bunch of first resurrections to follow" correct Ed?


In Christ,

Bob

 

Wait! wait! Revealtion 19
and 20 do not mention God is the Creator.
So therefore we conclude that God is not
the creator. Cut yourself some slack dude.
John is talking about the events after
the pretribulation rapture, not about
the pretribulation rapture. About the Tribulation]
period, not the Church age.

I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to
come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations
are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
many for one week; But in the middle
of the week He shall bring an end
to sacrifice and offering. And on
the wing of abominations shall be
one who makes desolate, Even until
the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
to the "prince that shall come".
Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
are divided in the middle by the abomination
of desolation, dividing the 7-year period into
to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

But I would not have you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of
the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
unto the coming of the Lord shall
not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so cometh as
a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say,
Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
cometh upon them, as travail upon
a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light,
and the children of the day: we are
not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
and they that be drunken are drunken
in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day,
be sober, putting on the breastplate
of faith and love; and for an helmet,
the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether
we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled, neither by spirit,
nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except
there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;

I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

 

Wait! wait! Revealtion 19
and 20 do not mention God is the Creator.
So therefore we conclude that God is not
the creator. Cut yourself some slack dude.
John is talking about the events after
the pretribulation rapture, not about
the pretribulation rapture.
</font>[/QUOTE]That is an assumption since John does not says "Now after the pretribulation rapture Christ shall appear with the armies of heaven" though you seem to "need" that in the text.

So we must "determine" where the 1Thess 4 resurrection of the righteous "is" in the book.

John tells us that the "FIRST" resurrection in his future is the one AFTER the Rev 19 events.

And by your own admission this is way too LATE for a FIRST resurrection in your model.

And this is our "clue" that your model is flawed.

The second clue is that the Rev 20 "FIRST resurrection" that is way too late for your needs - is ALSO said to be the resurrection of the "Holy blessed and righteous" - the saints.

So the "dead in Christ" raised in 1Thess 4 are those in the FIRST resurrection.

The righteous.

The saints,

Those over whom the 2nd death has no power.

And that Rev 20 event -- is wayyyyy to late for a "FIRST resurrection" in your model isn't it Ed?

Get it?

In Christ,

Bob

 

As for your views of Daniel 9 -- you need to make the case that prophetic timelines are not contiguous but rather they have inserted gaps of undefined time in the middle of them.

So far I have yet to see a compelling case made for such an approach to timelines.

Insertion of undefined gaps of time into timelines is not supportable in all of scripture. In fact no timeline could function with undefined gaps of time "inserted" as you seem to "need it".

In Christ,

Bob

 

BobRyan: //John tells us that the "FIRST" resurrection
in his future is the one AFTER the Rev 19 events.//

John says no such thing.
Here is a quick outline of Revelation:

Introduction: Chapt 1
Church age (now) - Chapter 2-3
Pretribulation rapture/resurrection - Verse 4:1 by type
Tribualtion period - Revelation 4:2-11:10
Second Advent - Revelation 19:11-21
Millinnial Kingdom of Jesus - Revelation 20:1-10
The great white throne judgement of the damned: - Revelation 20:11-15
(Revelation 21-22 concern the new heavens and the
new earth and what we should do now about them)

The FIRST RESURRECTION, the resurrection of the just
ends at the Second Advent just prior to the
Millinnial Kingdom of Jesus.
It really started with the resurrection of Jesus
which enables all the other resurrections.
Revelation 11:12 tells about the resurrection of
the two witnesses.

BobRyan: "So the "dead in Christ" raised in 1Thess 4
are those in the FIRST resurrection.//

Amen, Brother BobRyan - Preach it!
They are the ones shown on thrones in Revelation 20:4.
They are the ones raised up prior to the Tribulation
Period at the pretrbulation rapture/resurrection.

And BTW, you don't have enough information to tell me about
my pretribulation rapture/resurrection theories.
Save yourself the embaressment of trying. Recommend
you support your own theory instead of trying to dis mine.
Thank you.

BobRyan: "As for your views of Daniel 9 -- you need to make the case that prophetic timelines are not contiguous but rather they have inserted gaps of undefined time in the middle of them.

So far I have yet to see a compelling case made for
such an approach to timelines.//

Romans 11 seems like a pretty compelling case.
If the Jews of the times of Jesus had in the majority
accepted Jesus as their Messiah the Millennial Kingdom
of Jesus would have begun right then. They didn't
(else you and i would have never been saved) so the
non-contiguity is due to the age of the gentiles
(AKA: church age).

Luke 21:24 (KJV1679):

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall
be led away captive into all nations:
and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles,
until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Which BTW explains why a gentile "Dome of the Rock"
sets atop temple mount today.
(isn't it amasing how the scriptures
hang together )

 

No, it's more like:

Introduction: Chapt 1
Church age (now) - Chapter 2-3
Heavenly visions - Verse 4:1
Preparation of Revelation -- Ch.5
7 seals --revelation of issues that occur in gadating stages to the end, NOT one time only events - Ch. 6-8:6
Tribulation period - begins in foretype with 5th seal; antetype to occur later
Seven trumpets - 8:7-11:19,
Step back to review activities of Dragon, Beast and False Prophet - 12, 13
Mid-wrath rapture - 14:14-16 --fulfillment of Matt.13:38-43
7 last plagues - ch.15, 16
Later picture of beast and Baylon - ch.17
judgement of Babylon - ch.18
Second Advent - Revelation 19:11-21
Millennial Kingdom of Jesus - Revelation 20:1-10
The great white throne judgement of the damned: - Revelation 20:11-15
Revelation 21-22 - new heavens and the
new earth

 

Three parallel passages:
Jesus, Paul, John:


Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The timeline according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The timeline according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 &lt;== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The timeline according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

 

John says no such thing.
</font>[/QUOTE]Here is a quick outline.

Rev 19 - the 2nd coming of Christ.

Rev 20:4-5 the "FIRST resurrection" where the dead in Christ - come to life and REIGN with Him for 1000 years.

It is pretty obvious. Though I understand your need to work around that huge problem for your model.

Notice what "you said"

Which is your problem in a nutshell. You have admitted that Rev 19 is the 2nd coming and that Rev 20 is the start of the millenial kingdom that begins AT the second coming.... and obviously Rev 20:4-5 fits right in - the FIRST resurrection. This is the resurrection of the "blessed and holy" as John calls them.

The "Dead in Christ" as Paul referrs to them in 1Thess 4.

These are raised in the FIRST resurrection.

The FIRST resurrection is described in Rev 20.

That is AFTER the Rev 19 "Second Coming" (or more precisely - it is AT the second coming but AFTER the initial events of the 2nd coming get into gear... same day probably).

Your problem is that when John looks into the future and sees the "FIRST resurrection" you declare that this is "way too late" - because it is in Rev 20 AFTER the 2nd coming description in Rev 19.

However it is very clear Rev 20 describes the resurrection of the righteous as does 1Thess4 and this is AFTER the Rev 19 event as begun.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob: //However it is very clear Rev 20 describes
the resurrection of the righteous as does 1Thess4
and this is AFTER the Rev 19 event as begun.//

You are confusing the period at the end of the sentence
with the sentence. The Revelation 19 event is the
grand finale of Second Coming week (7 year).

 

Oh, really? Take another look at Matt.24:4-15, and especially compare it with Rev.6. These are the 7 Seals!!!. The seals are revelations that have been occurring in typical form throughout the Church age. And yes, they are before the rapture.
V.21-28 is simply the antetypical final "tribulation" (which had begun typically in v.9).

As for Thessalonians; I'm sorry, but that does not add up to a Pre-trib rapture. Paul saying "Now we beseech you...by our gathering together unto Him" does not place this event in the timeline he gives us beginning v.3. After all, you try to place the Coming of Christ as event #3, but it is right there in v. 1, right along with the "gathering".
In fact, Paul there says "For that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed...". "that day" clearly refers to the Coming of Christ (and thus the gathering as well), and is clearly shown to be after the man of sin. This is perhaps the most clear proof of that.

 

The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Tribulation period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Zion north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture.

 

It is obvious that Rev 19 is a graphic description of the singular event - the 2nd coming - the "return" of Christ promised in John 14.

After that event takes place just as described in Rev 19 - then the Rev 20:4-5 event takes place ... the FIRST resurrection.

And as John says this is the resurrection of the "Blessed and Holy ones" - these are what Paul calls "the dead in Christ" in 1Thess 4.

Certainly Paul is not pointing to those raised in the 2nd resurrection "The REST of the dead" that "did NOT come to life until AFTER the 1000 years are complete".

In Christ,

Bob

 

As John looks forward into the history - he tells us clearly of the "FIRST resurrection" in our future.

That description given in Rev 20:4-5 - fits perfectly with Paul's description of the saints being raised to life at the return of Christ.

Indeed - the First resurrection - not the second.

In Christ,

Bob

 

"endure unto the end" doesn't mean "remain alive" until the end. "Endure" means to not fall away from the faith, or renounce Christ under pressure. If someone dies in faith before "the end" (whether from sickness or persecution), they did "endure" for the time they were alotted.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 by itself does not tell us whether the "catching up" is before or after the other prophetic events.

People always use this to try to prove pretribuationism, but "wrath" is contrasted with "salvation", and refers to our being saved from eternal wrath. A Christian being persecuted is still "not appointed to wrath". (Anyway, the tribulation is partly man's wrath anyway, while the later wrath of both the plagues and eternal judgment is what is God's wrath, and what is referred to there).
And to those Christians being persecuted; knowing their final redemption draws near, would be a "comfort" to them, that they could comfort each other with. None of this is promising us transitioning from this age of relative ease for us in this culture directly to glory.

OK, well most people don't make that interpretation. "falling away" is generally taken to mean the great apostasy foretold in many other scriptures, and notice it is what leads to the man of sin. Even most pre-trib hold this view, if I am correct. That is the most natural interpretation, and to plug "the rapture" in there is not really supported except if you already read it into the other places.

Well, v.4-6 speak of watchfulness. There has to be things going on leading up to it, if we can watch for anything.