The Gathering of the Church/the Rapture

Eric B: ""Endure" means to not fall away from the faith,
or renounce Christ under pressure."

I agree.

Matthew 24:13 (TMB = Third Millinnium Bible)

But he that shall endure unto the end,
the same shall be saved.

What happens to the "he" who does not?
Jesus does not answer this in Matthew 24.
I'm not sure my question ever gets answered
in the Bible.

I do know logicaly the truth of:
But he that shall endure unto the end,
the same shall be saved.
does NOT imply:
But he that shallNOT endure unto the end,
the same shall NOT be saved.

 

Amen, Brother Ray -- PReach it!


Why would Jesus invite us to
a judgement? The Great Tribulation is
a Judgemet. I like to call it "the Great
Tribulation Period Judgement".

Why would Jesus appoint us for the wrath
that is the Great Tribulation Period Judgement?

 

Well, I believe that some sort of protection will be given to most. That is the significance of "watch and pray that ye be counted worthy to escape". This can't be referring to the "rapture", because that is tied in with our being "in Christ", and is by faith, not the works of watching.
In the 7 Churches of Rev. we see at least one Chrch that is offered protection, while another is told they will go through the tribulation.

Once again, to us, already in comfort, the idea of going through the tribulation (even if protected) is no "comfort", but the God never said it would always be like this. But to other Christians, already in tribulation-like situations, the official "tribulation would signify the end of this age ("your redemoption draws near"), and would be a comfort to them.
It starts out as mostly man's "judgments" on other men, as they begin fighting and the antichrist tries to enforce his rule. The trumpets are a mixture of human, natural, and divine causes. The vials are the "complete" divine wrath, and yes, the Church is removed before this.
I also answered what "appointed to wrath" means. (Not referring to any eartly "tribulation", but contrasts "salvation".)

 

1Thess 4 is addressing the fact of those who had already died - it is not predicting that saints will not die during the tribulation. In fact - the tribulation is not the subject of 1Thess 4.

The church does not "become the bride" only 2000 years after the book of Revelation - rather - Paul argues that the church is already the bride of Christ and Christ already loves the Church - in the days of John.

That means your argument above - is too late. The Dark Ages already happened. 50 million + Christians already slaughtered.

You can not make the argument that the church can't be persecuted because God won't allow it - see Rev 12. See the Dark Ages.

1Thess 4 does tell us that at the return of Christ - the resurrection of the saints will take place. John says the "First Resurrection" is that of the Righteous in Rev 20.

At that time - we will be raptured up in the air to meet Christ and will return with Him to heaven - to the place He is preparing for us.

As Christ said in John 17 before the Dark ages "Keep them from the evil one" - but not by "taking them out of the world".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Ok then we agree that the rapture of 1Thess 4 is also the event of 1Cor 15 and is also the event promised in John 14.

I also think John sees it - and identifies the righteous as taking part in the "First Resurrection".

We also agree that the church went through historic - massive - persecution in the dark ages. A time that followed the acension of Christ and the start of the NT church age - as Rev 12 describes. Notice that the historic - world event in Rev 12 are "the OT church anticipating the Messiah, the arrival of the Messiah, the persecution of the NT church".

Basically that is history in a nutshell.

We also seem to agree that John 17 provides protection all through that time - but not in the form of "no persecution".

We also agree that the dark ages is not the final Rev 15-16 tribulation period. But I would note that it IS the Rev 12 historic period of time that follows the start of the NT church.

In Christ,

Bob

 

In my view, the tribulations that occured in the past and present are types of the final "tribulation" that do partly fulfil the 5th seal.
But even if you insist they are totally separate, still, the way people argue "God wouldn't do that to us", you would think God would not have let the Church go through the trials it has already.

 

AMen on what you said, Brother Ray!

One of the differences between 'tribulation' that has happened throughout time and the Great Tribulation is this.

Matthew 24:21-22 (RSV):

21 For then there will be great tribulation,
such as has not been from the beginning of
the world until now, no, and never will be.
22 And if those days had not been shortened,
no human being would be saved;
but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

The tribulations of the true church in the middle ages,
even the invasions of the scourgue of the earth: the Hun,
did not threaten to kill everybody.
The Great Tribulation Judgement Period will, according
to Jesus who spake Matthe 24:21-22, be the worse
thing that ever happens on earth.
I'm thankful for this.
Since about 1963 the people of this world have
had the capability to kill everyone in the world.
(after 1992 the US and Russia agreed to only hold
enough Nuclear weapons each to kill everybody in
the world twice. This was a big improvment over
when either could kill everybody on earth 24 times.)

Hello! Jesus is Lord. I believe He will interfeer
in the affairs of Mankind to save some human lives.

Some say the phrase: "for the sake of the elect
those days will be shortened"
Means there will be Christians on the ground during the
Great Tribulation. I rather think not. There will be
Jewish elect on the earth during this time protected
by the very hand of God (Revelation 12).
These in heaven see their loved ones about to die and
petition the Father for their lives.

 

I know most people will refuse to believe the Lord's words concerning the timing and fulfillment of the 24th chapter of Matthew, but here it is:

"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened"(Matt.24:34; NIV).

The words "truth" and "certainly" give you some very good understanding just how sure the Lord was concerning the fulfillment of His words. We, on the other hand, attempt with the utmost of labor to twist, side-step, deny and re-write our Lord's own words so as to squeeze them into our box of understanding. I believe the Lord meant what He said and said what He meant. Now I know this above statement is sure to invoke controversy and the same old arguments, yet I must continue to drive them home.

 

Rev 7:9 does not describe the "great multitude" as "those slain" rather they are 14 ... the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. .

These are those who survive the great tribulation and do not die.

No doubt that the "god of this world" 2Cor 4 that blinds the eyes of men today - will be doing a lot of damabe in the future tribulation and as we see in Rev 13 it is world wide.

But in Rev 12 - the 1260 years of persecution of the saints that followed the ascension of Christ
is not what we see in Rev 13, 14 and 16.

One deals with the "Ages long" persecution during the dark ages - while the other deals with a very short - but pervasive persecution in our future.

(Of course both of these were in John's future).

IN Christ,

Bob

 

BobRyan: //Rev 7:9 does not describe the "great multitude" as "those slain" rather they are 14 ... the ones who come out of the great tribulation and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the
Lamb.//

THe number 200 Million is noted in Revelation.
That these cannot be numbered preculdes them being
Tribulation Period saints.

There have been 8 Billion persons born since 33AD
(to 1990) called Christians, 2 Billion of them
still live.

If the pretribulation rapture occurred today and only
40% are REAL Christians, then that means 800 Million
Christians will be raptured. If only 40% of the
6 Billion dead are REAL CHristians, then 2,400 Million
will be resurrected. That is a harvest of
3,200 Million souls at the pretribulatin rapture/resurrection.
IMHO these are the ones seend at the foot of the
throne in Chapter 7 of Revelation.
Chapter 7 of Revelation starts out with the 144,000
raptured/ressurrected Jews who are selected for special
service to Jesus in the Tribulation Period. Seems to me
then this unnumbered crowd of the Saved
of the Church could be the about 3 Billion i've mentioned
above. (I obviously can't count them, if they are uncountable).
These people have come out of the Tribulation Period by
1) dying before the Tribulation Period (and being resurrected)
2) by being raptured before the start of the Tribulation PEriod

I see no way that the postribulation model can create an uncountable
number of saints around the throne at the beginning of the
tribulation period. Sorry, but if 200 million are numbered
then there has to be a LOT more collected around the throne
than 200 Million for it to be called "unnumbered".

 

200 Million is not mentioned in Rev 7.

The unnumbered multitude are those that come out of great tribulation and are not said to have been slain.

However in Rev 12 we see a 1260 year span of persecution beginning some time after Chrisdt ascends to heaven.

That "long ages" of persecution in the dark ages is well documented as having happened.

But the future tribulation of Rev 14 and 16 has not yet happened.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Good for you.
I see 1260 days divided by 30 days per
month equals 3½-years.
This is half of the ONE SEVEN (seven years)
mentioned in Daniel 9:27.

 

The 1260 days are synonomous with the 42 months and 3 and a half years used throughout the book of Revelation. Most historical view people want to make the 1260 days here refer to a 1260 year time span. If you want to embrace this one day = 1 year interpretation then it would only be natural that the 1000 years in Revelation 20 must also represent 365,000 years! Now that would really be some kind of reign!!! But we know that this would be rediculous. The 1260 days does in fact equal 42 months and 3 and a half years, not the time of the early Catholic church.

 

Yep. The
"best" explanation is made by taking
the year of the Birth of the recent Nation
of Israel, 1948. Subtract 1260 from 1948
and you get 688AD. About that time
(it takes 20-30 years to build such a
building) the Dome of the Rock was deidcated.

So AMEN on 1260 days = 423 months
= time, times, and half a time = 3½-years