Fruits of Calvanism

You didn't answer my question. </font>[/QUOTE]lets see..you must be born in the USA.
You must be above the age of 35.
No jail time. maybe a few other things....not sure.

 

One thing I have come to notice here on the BB, simple statements are twisted by calvinists to form strawmen arguments. This entire post is a good exammple.

God hates...it's biblical, but the definition of "hate" used by calvinists are not always biblical. Simple, truthful statement. Will you submit YOUR mind and soul to this simple truth, and rightly divide the Word?

epistemaniac, if you want to believe I think of God as only "the man upstairs" or "Santa Claus" because I defend the TRUE sovereignty and love of God, we have nothing further to discuss. I don't like to be labeled, or talked down to as having an inferior view of God as you do.

 

Forget looking at anything frontwards or backwards. Let me lay out what you said and let's look at the logical conclusions.

Jesus died to pay for everyone's sins, yet some still go to hell because of unbelief.

LOGICAL CONCLUSIONS
1) Some still have to pay the penalty for their sins in hell.
2) Jesus is a failure since He did not accomplish what He set out to do.

OR

3) Jesus' death was never intended to pay for the sins of those who end up in hell.

You cannot have Jesus dying for sins that end up being paid for by the same people He supposedly died for. Either His death accomplished something or it didn't. Your view is not only unbiblical, it is illogical.

 

Absolutely. Why?

God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child...
Luke 19:
41When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,
42saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.
43“For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”

Christ lamented over Jerusalem...

Matt 23
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away...

Gen 6:
5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.

Isaiah 63:So He became their Savior.
9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them,
And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled
And grieved His Holy Spirit;
Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,
He fought against them.

ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over those finally lost...

Hosea 11
:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.
Though they call them to the One on high,
None at all exalts Him.
8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
How can I surrender you, O Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
My heart is turned over within Me,
All My compassions are kindled.

Ezek 18:20“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22“All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
26“When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.
27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29“But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"

 

No...unless you are GOD!!

Romans 9

I (God) will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.

It's His Choice </font>[/QUOTE]Partial posting of half texts taken out of context do not support a doctrine.

You are right, though, it is His choice. So what is it to you if God attaches requirements, and gives man the ability to respond?

 

Boy, I sure am glad that you non-Calvinists never twist statements to make strawmen arguments out of Calvinism. You sure are godly. I wish we could all be like you....

 

Thanks for the links. I've only read some of Packer's intro, and it's excellent. I can't wait to get to the book.

 

You didn't answer my question. </font>[/QUOTE]lets see..you must be born in the USA.
You must be above the age of 35.
No jail time. maybe a few other things....not sure. </font>[/QUOTE]You mean I can't just call the White House and tell them that James is the new president? God's requirements are similar, and not based on anything good within us, or good works, but what we do with His Son. Ephesians 1:1-14 has the preposition "in Christ" or "in Him" ELEVEN TIMES connecting God's "elect" to Him. This is election. The reqirements are put forth. Respond and live...reject and die. This is the whole Gospel message seen throughout the OT and NT. Denying this is denying the truth.

 

Boy, I sure am glad that you non-Calvinists never twist statements to make strawmen arguments out of Calvinism. You sure are godly. I wish we could all be like you.... </font>[/QUOTE]If you are a believer, you can, unless God predestined you not to!

1Co 2:16 For: who has known the Lord's mind, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Why would God predestine two believers who both have "the mind of Christ" to believe two totally opposite things? Hmmm....

 

No...unless you are GOD!!

Romans 9

I (God) will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.

It's His Choice </font>[/QUOTE]Partial posting of half texts taken out of context do not support a doctrine.

You are right, though, it is His choice. So what is it to you if God attaches requirements, and gives man the ability to respond? </font>[/QUOTE]?

This is yet another silly statement. It matters not if I or you or any one...wants to "attach requirements". God..can he make requirements? yes...if he wanted to. He kinda did this in the OT..under the law. And guess what..no one could live up to the Law. Grace is in the NT and Its what the Bible says that counts not me or you. AGAIN,,,,This is called grace...no works..no requirements needed. Nothing at all in us...but only the grace of God. I remember not to long ago you (webdog) held to the grace of God. You have been around Bob to long, and now you are taking up works.

 

I'm glad the truth amuses you!

 

No...unless you are GOD!!

Romans 9

I (God) will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.

It's His Choice </font>[/QUOTE]Partial posting of half texts taken out of context do not support a doctrine.

You are right, though, it is His choice. So what is it to you if God attaches requirements, and gives man the ability to respond? </font>[/QUOTE]?

This is yet another silly statement. It matters not if I or you or any one...wants to "attach requirements". God..can he make requirements? yes...if he wanted to. He kinda did this in the OT..under the law. And guess what..no one could live up to the Law. Grace is in the NT and Its what the Bible says that counts not me or you. AGAIN,,,,This is called grace...no works..no requirements needed. Nothing at all in us...but only the grace of God. I remember not to long ago you (webdog) held to the grace of God. You have been around Bob to long, and now you are taking up works. </font>[/QUOTE]Don't falsely accuse me nor attack me. I still hold to God's grace, and have not taken up works. What your view as God's grace does not match up with what the Bible says.

Eureka! You know what? He does!
Romans 10:13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

 

Yes, the truth amuses me, but I can't find it anywhere in your posts.

When it comes to your posts, you're the one who amuses me.

 

Yes, the truth amuses me, but I can't find it anywhere in your posts.

When it comes to your posts, you're the one who amuses me. </font>[/QUOTE]Well I'm glad we amuse each other, but I wouldn't admit so freely that Scipture I post is not truthful...

 

You mean I can't just call the White House and tell them that James is the new president?

God's requirements are similar, and not based on anything good within us, or good works, but what we do with His Son.

Ephesians 1:1-14 has the preposition "in Christ" or "in Him" ELEVEN TIMES connecting God's "elect" to Him.

This is election. The reqirements are put forth. Respond and live...reject and die. This is the whole Gospel message seen throughout the OT and NT. Denying this is denying the truth.


************************************

Again we see a very silly statement.

Lets look at the passage and maybe you will see for the 1st time

1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the (((will of God))), To the saints who are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2Grace be to you and peace from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.


We...The elect...are Blessed

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ, even as

We are Blessed..for we are choosen
4He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

We are Blessed..for we are predestined according to HIS good pleasure.
5having predestined us to be His own adopted children by Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will,

We are Blessed..for we are accepted
6to the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in His Beloved:

We are Blessed..because of redemption
7in Whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace,

We are Blessed..for with Godly wisdom
8wherein He hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence.

We are Blessed..with understanding
9He hath made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself,

We are Blessed..in ONENESS
10that in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth, even in Him.

We are Blessed..with inheritance
11In Christ also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will,


12that we, who first trusted in Christ, should be to the praise of His glory.

We are Blessed..for we are sealed in Him
13In Christ ye also trusted after ye heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation, in Whom also after ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

We are Blessed..with a pledge from God
14which is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.


let me ask for the 4th time...

Who chooses who?

and..

when was the choosing?

It is very simple to understand once you give up your will

 

This only states that Paul was made an apostle by the will of God.

Your exegesis of Ephesians focuses on being blesseed...not being "in Christ", as the point Paul was stressing.

Define "choose" or "choice", as many calvinists believe an option of one thing constitutes a "choice" (by definition not a true choice)

Giving up free will means salvation has been forced upon us...God raped man into loving Him and having faith in Him.

 

I didn't think I had to qualify this, but I will. It's not the scripture itself but what you write about it that I find to be devoid of truth. Of course, if I say "all of what you've written", I should clarify that I'm using "all" hyperbolically. I'm sure if I sifted through every post you've ever made I might find a nugget or two of truth somewhere in something you've written. I don't have enough time to engage in such an exercise, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

Then you have to "DENY" that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.


1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


By being "backwards", you have to deny what the scriptures "Plainly" say.

I don't think I need to point out that when your doctine denies what is plainly stated by the scripture, there is something wrong with your doctrine.

The "intentions/Mission" of God/Jesus are clearly spelled out in the scriptures.

God's love emcompassed the "Whole world" of sinners, Jesus didn't come to condemn but to save and died for the sins of the whole world, that the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved because God wasn't willing for any to perish.

And any doctrine that has God condemning any to hell by his "Sovereign will" clearly contradict God's stated intentions/mission to the earth.

and "no understanding" of the plan of salvation or the Judgment of man based on God requiring the sinner to have "FAith" in Jesus before he will save, and the condemnation of those who refuse to believe.

Jesus's death for all sins, "JUSTIFIES" God to save believers and to condemn the unbelievers, because they had an "equal opportunity" to be part of the "body of Christ", and refused.

Sovereign will/Predestination completely destroys the plan of salvation through the individuals "belief/unbelief" and the Judgment for their belief/unbelief, since it wouldn't be their beliefs being judged, but God's will.

How can you reconcile condemnation by sovereign will/predestination with God's will that not should perish, it can't be done???

 

Oh, yeah, free willers never resort to straw man arguments.