Fruits of Calvanism

No, I deny your definition of "whole world." I do not believe that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world if, by that you mean that He died for the sins of every single person without exception, including those He knew would reject Him and go to hell (for that matter, those who already were in hell).

But I believe that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world if by that is meant people from every nation, tribe, and tongue without distinction.

 

So, you are assuming that "put eternity into our hearts" means "looks forward to eternal life?" That sure is quite a leap. All this verse means, in context, is that man wants something that will last. But they can't figure out God's time-table or His plan because He is eternal and they are not.

 

No, I deny your definition of "whole world." I do not believe that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world if, by that you mean that He died for the sins of every single person without exception, including those He knew would reject Him and go to hell (for that matter, those who already were in hell).

But I believe that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world if by that is meant people from every nation, tribe, and tongue without distinction. </font>[/QUOTE]Then you have to believe Jesus "DID" come to condem "SOME".

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Jesus came to redeem just as many as were made sinners,

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

There's no way you can exclude ANY from the "The Free gift" else God's will that not ANY should perish would be a lie.

 

You're just not getting it, no matter how many times people say it to you. World here means all peoples without distinction of heritage, nationality, etc. It doesn't mean every single person in the world who ever lived, lives or will live.

Jesus is returning to pour out His wrath on the Day of the Lord. At that time, Jesus will return to condemn the world. But when the above was written, it wasn't THAT time. Jesus came the first time so that the world (the elect from among all peoples without distinction) through Him might be saved. The next time He comes it won't be to save people, it will be to pour His wrath out upon them -- yes, THE WORLD. Yet we also know that 144,000 Jews will be protected during this time. So even then "the world" doesn't mean every single person without exception.

You should see a doctor about this obsession you have repeating an assumption that people have already debunked several times.

 

If I might "SPECULATE".

Jesus is the only name that will get anyone into heaven, OT people never heard the name Jesus, but Jesus preached to them "while in the tomb" as if they were living people, then took the believer to heaven when he ascended.

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (of sin)

1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

And I don't think it was just the Jews he preached to but also all the people who had lived/die up to that point in time.

But here's my point, If this was done for the people who never had the opportunity to hear the name Jesus, before he came, what about the people who lived/died after he came and still never had the opportunity to hear???

Ro 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Man isn't as depraved as calvin claims, in his heart/conscience he knows right from wrong, even if he's never heard of God or read a bible, and comitting one (wrong) sin makes him a sinner.

Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

With the law written on man's heart/conscience, none is without law except the "Lawless". (ignore the law/conscience)

Ge 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

Just a God searches our hearts to know the intents, and Judges, I'm sure he'll search their heart as well, I don't have any scripture that he'll give them an opportunity to hear the name Jesus and be saved after death, but it has been done before, and God isn't willing for any to perish.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give "EVERY MAN" according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

One thing for sure, "JUSTICE" will be served.

 

Me4Him quoted Romans 5:18

I'm not sure that passage can teach unlimited atonement. If by the righteousness of one (Jesus) the free gift came upon all men (by gift, we mean the gift of salvation), then we must explain why all are not saved. All Men must mean something else.

A similar passage in II Corinthians 5:18, 19:

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given us a ministry of reconciliation.
19 To with, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them....

Let's see, first, God, in Christ, reconciles us to Himself. That is us believers. Now, let's see: Reconciling the world. Not imputing their trespasses unto them. Now, there are two possible interpretations. One, universal salvation. Two, world means something besides all men without exception.

I really don't believe anybody here really believes "world" means universal atonement. Must be Number Two.

 

Based on your correct definition, God commands us to choose "life"...
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live,

Of course, the calvinist will say that God commands us to do things we cannot do.

When was the choosing? When God drew us and convicted us to Him, as He said He would in John 12:32 </font>[/QUOTE]for the 7th time...looking at the passage you brought up...ehp 1

who chooses us for salvation?

when was the choosing


BTW..your verse..the one you just posted...God does call all to him...yet no man seeks God..so no one comes...then we have election

this will be the last time i ask. for somereason you want to hide from this point </font>[/QUOTE]I answered your question. If it's not the answer you wanted or liked, tough, but don't accuse me of not answering it.

The "no one" who seeks God is referring to the "fool". In Romans 3:11, Paul is quoting from Psalm 53. Psalm 53 talks about the fool who says in his heart 'there is no God'. THESE are the people who are corrupt, whose ways are vile, who do not understand or seek God. These are the people who do no good at all and have become together corrupt. This is NOT talking about the average man! If it were, then the passages that urge people to seek God, to seek Him while He may be found, are all nonsense! And the Bible does not contain nonsense.
You calvinists love to rip that verse out of context. If nobody seeks God, what do you do with the numerous passages telling man to seek Him, ignore them?
Bible demands/commands people to seek Him:

Glory in his holy name;
let the hearts of those who seek the Lord rejoice.
Look to the Lord and his strength;
seek his face always.
1 Chron. 16:10-11

"And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the god of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever."
1 Chron. 28:9

Asa did what was good and right in the eyes of the Lord his God. He removed the foreign altars and the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He commanded Judah to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, and to obey his laws and commands.
2 Chron. 14:2-4

The Spirit of God came upon Azariah son of Obed. He went out to meet Asa and said to him, "Listen to me, Asa and all Judah and Benjamin. The Lord is with you when you are with him. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you."
2 Chron. 15:1-2

Josiah was eight yers old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem thirty-one yhears. He did what was right in the eyes of the Lord and walked in the ways of his father David, not turning aside to the right or to the left. In the eighth year of his reign, while he was still young, he began to seek the God of his father David.
2 Chron. 34:1-3a

Those who know your name will trust in you,
for you, Lord, have never forsaken those who seek you.
Psalm 9:10

Please pay attention here to the type of person who does NOT seek God:

In his arrogance the wicked man hunts down the weak,
who are caught in the schemes he devises.
He boasts of the cravings of his heart;
he blesses the greedy and reviles the Lord.
In his pride the wicked does not seek him;
in all this thoughts there is no room for God.
Psalm 10:2-4

The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the Lord wil praise him --
may your hearts live forever!
Psalm 22:26

The lions may grow weak and hungry, but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing.
Psalm 34:10

But may all who seek you rejoice and be glad in you;
may those who love your salvation always say, "The Lord be exalted!"
Psalm 40:16

May those who hope in you not be disgraced because of me,
O Lord, the Lord Almighty;
ma;y those who seek you not be put to shame because of me,
O God of Israel.

.../the poor will see and be glad --
you who seek God, may your hearts live!
The Lord hears the needy and does not despise his captive people.
Psalm 69:6, 32-33

Cover their [the enemies of God, v.2] faces with shame
so that men will seek your name, O Lord.
Psalm 83:16

Glory in his holy name;
let the hearts of those who seek the Lord rejoice.
Look to the Lord and his strength;
seek his face always.
Psalm 105:3-4

Blessed are they who keep his statutes
and seek him with all their heart.
Psalm 119:2

Evil men do not understand justice,
but those who seek the Lord understand it fully./i]
Proverbs 28:5

Seek the Lord while he may be found;
call on him while he is near.
Let the wicked forsake his way
and the evil man his thoughts.
Let him turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
Isaiah 55:6-7

"You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you," declares the Lord...
Jeremiah 29:13

"For I will be like a lion to Ephraim, like a great lion to Judah.
I will tear them to pieces and go away;
I will carry them off, with no one to rescue them.
Then I will go back to my place until they admit their guilt.
And they will seek my face;
in their misery, they will earnestly seek me."
Hosea 5:14-15

This is what the Lord says to the house of Israel:
"Seek me and live"...Seek the Lord and live, or he will sweep through the house of Joseph like a fire.
Amos 5:4, 6
Note: read the rest of chapter 5 to see who it is the Lord is so angry with. You will find it is not with the average man...

Seek the Lord, all you humble of the earth,
you who do what he commands.
Zephaniah 2:3a

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. for everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."
Matthew 7:7-8

"From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us."
That is PAUL speaking! Acts 17:26-27

Now, WHY would Paul contradict all of Scripture and himself if he was saying in Romans 3 that no one seeks God? He was not saying that. He was reminding them of the evil men who do not seek God by quoting from the Scriptures they had all known since they were children. Scriptures all too many Christians today are totally ignorant of.

 

**************

YEAH..sure.

Man...and i coldn't even tell you changed passages on us...wow...you're to slick for me. that is soooo straight up...very good.

Well...no need to waste any more of my time.

 

You guys are crazy. Just because Paul in Romans 3 quotes a phrase from Psalm 53, you want to ignore the Romans 3 context and insist that the context is Psalm 53. LOOK AT THE CONTEXT OF ROMANS 3!!!

Romans 3:9-11 - What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin; 10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God;

Now, pay attention. He says Jews and Gentiles are all (every Jew and Gentile) under sin. Then he uses the Old Testament to prove that point. "AS it is written." This is where Psalm 53 comes in. So, Paul pulls Psalm 53 in to prove his point, not that only atheist are under sin, but all Jews and Gentiles. This would be everyone. So, no one (not any Jew or Gentile) seeks after God.

What conclusion does he come to at the end of his quote?

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God:

All the world (all Jews and Gentiles) are brought under the judgement of God. This passage is not just about the atheists. It is about all Jews and Gentiles, which, in this context, would include every person without distinction because every person is in one of those two groups.

 

I'm not sure that passage can teach unlimited atonement. If by the righteousness of one (Jesus) the free gift came upon all men (by gift, we mean the gift of salvation), then we must explain why all are not saved. All Men must mean something else.

A similar passage in II Corinthians 5:18, 19:

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given us a ministry of reconciliation.
19 To with, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them....

Let's see, first, God, in Christ, reconciles us to Himself. That is us believers. Now, let's see: Reconciling the world. Not imputing their trespasses unto them. Now, there are two possible interpretations. One, universal salvation. Two, world means something besides all men without exception.

I really don't believe anybody here really believes "world" means universal atonement. Must be Number Two. </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus died for the sins of the whole world so the whole world MIGHT BE saved,

Why the "might be"???

Why not "would be"??

Jesus death doesn't "AUTOMATICALLY" cover all sin as you suggested, there's a"condition" attached, "FAITH".

"FAITH" in Jesus. Jesus is the "DOOR" through which a person must pass before they get to the "GRACE" of salvation from the Father.

You don't get saved, then believe, you believe first, then you get saved.

The wages of sin is death, and only death will pay those wages, Faith will not pay those wages to remit the sin.

The free gift of salvation to all men is Jesus dying for all sins, so they "MIGHT BE" saved if they believe, if they don't, the wages of their sin is still owed.


God only sees the "body of Christ" and sinners, sinners which "MIGHT BE" in the body of christ, even the whole world, "IF" they would believe in Jesus.


all men to condemnation
all men unto justification of life
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, also for the sins of the whole world.

The second "All" is just a many as the first
"ALL",..." "MIGHT BE" includes the whole world,

"unbelief" is the only "excluder" in the plan of salvation.

 

Webdog… you are sooo funny!! Lol…. You say

Yet, you can ALSO say to me…

Now, can you explain to me why it is that you can say that you think my ideas regarding the nature of God, salvation, etc are “not biblical”, that my entire post was a “simple” statement which is “twisted… to form stawmen (sic) argument”, yet, at the very same time you can tell me that you don’t like to be “labeled, or talked down to as having an inferior view of God”??? This is simple hypocrisy webdog.

Now I don’t care if you label me, if you think I have an inferior view of God, if you think my ideas are not backed up by Scripture, that’s part of the reason I come to these forums, to test my views against Scripture.

But when you label me (scripture twister, creator of strawman arguments, giving unbiblical definitions of biblical words), don’t complain about being “labeled”.

When you say that I “twist simple statements”, then don’t complain about the assertion that you are not using Scripture improperly.

When you say that my arguments are nothing but straw man arguments, don’t complain when your arguments are taken apart and when I point out that your assertion that my argument is a “straw man” proves exactly nothing in regard to the verity or falsity of my argument. In other words, your saying that my argument is a straw man does not, I repeat DOES NOT automatically make it so.

You have to put a little effort into this conversation and actually PROVE it is a straw man, otherwise, you aren’t doing anyone any favors. You have done a disservice to yourself by not taking the time to actually examine the arguments close enough to form an intelligent rebuttal, or to even &lt;GASP&gt; see that you may be mistaken, and you have done me a disservice my not showing me the error of my ways.

And do not think that my disagreement with you is equal to “talking down to you”. If that is the way you respond to people biblically critiquing your views, whether you agree with the critique actually being biblical or not, you are in the wrong place. You need to find a place that is an “atta boy” club, where everyone tells you that you are the profoundest expositor of Scripture they know of, and they accept every idea that you have. If you are threatened or insulted because someone disagrees with you, then by being here, you are setting yourself up for serious emotional problems.

Blessings,
Ken

 

**************

YEAH..sure.

Man...and i coldn't even tell you changed passages on us...wow...you're to slick for me. that is soooo straight up...very good.

Well...no need to waste any more of my time. </font>[/QUOTE]How was I being slick? I answered your question. Go back and read it...if it's not a waste of time.

 

You guys are crazy. Just because Paul in Romans 3 quotes a phrase from Psalm 53, you want to ignore the Romans 3 context and insist that the context is Psalm 53. LOOK AT THE CONTEXT OF ROMANS 3!!!

Romans 3:9-11 - What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin; 10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God;

Now, pay attention. He says Jews and Gentiles are all (every Jew and Gentile) under sin. Then he uses the Old Testament to prove that point. "AS it is written." This is where Psalm 53 comes in. So, Paul pulls Psalm 53 in to prove his point, not that only atheist are under sin, but all Jews and Gentiles. This would be everyone. So, no one (not any Jew or Gentile) seeks after God.

What conclusion does he come to at the end of his quote?

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God:

All the world (all Jews and Gentiles) are brought under the judgement of God. This passage is not just about the atheists. It is about all Jews and Gentiles, which, in this context, would include every person without distinction because every person is in one of those two groups. </font>[/QUOTE]Were crazy? We are not the ones who microscopically dissect a single verse, and TOTALLY IGNORE the numerous other passages that refute their theology, like the ones I posted.

 

So, you are assuming that "put eternity into our hearts" means "looks forward to eternal life?" That sure is quite a leap. All this verse means, in context, is that man wants something that will last. But they can't figure out God's time-table or His plan because He is eternal and they are not. </font>[/QUOTE]Then explain what the "non elect" (reprobate) want beyond this life that "will last"? What kind of "eternity" was put into their hearts? Different than the elect?

 

No, you're the ones that completely ignore the verses that say that God elects before He even creates so that you can elevate man's free-will. In so doing, you ignore passages that refute your theology. I know, I used to think as you do.

I mean, honestly, you guys love John 1:12 because it says "As many as received Him" but you ignore John 1:13 which says that those who received Him did so, not of their own effort or even of their own desire (will), but of God's will.

 

So, you are assuming that "put eternity into our hearts" means "looks forward to eternal life?" That sure is quite a leap. All this verse means, in context, is that man wants something that will last. But they can't figure out God's time-table or His plan because He is eternal and they are not. </font>[/QUOTE]Then explain what the "non elect" (reprobate) want beyond this life that "will last"? What kind of "eternity" was put into their hearts? Different than the elect? </font>[/QUOTE]Since I am not currently reprobate, I don't know for sure. Why don't you go ask them. They will tell you, probably, that they want their legacy to remain for future generations (which is all about them). They will tell you, probably, that they want to have eternal sex with 72 virgins in Allah's paradise (which is all about them). They will tell you, probably, that they want to be drawn up into eternal nirvana where they have no cares (which is all about them). They will tell you, probably, that they want to be worshipped as a family god by their descendents (which is all about them). They will tell you, probably, that they want to go to heaven and experience eternal peace and see all their friends and family (which is all about them). They will tell you, probably, that they want to just cease to exist (which is all about them). I doubt, seriously, that any will tell you that they want to spend all of eternity in worship of their creator and savior (which is all about God).

The context of Ecclesiastes 3:11 is talking about a man's work remaining after he is gone. It has nothing to do with a genuine desire to seek God as He demands to be sought and to worship God as He demands to be worshipped.

Ecclesiastes 3:9-13 What profit has the worker from that in which he labors? 10 I have seen the God-given task with which the sons of men are to be occupied. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end. 12 I know that nothing is better for them than to rejoice, and to do good in their lives, 13 and also that every man should eat and drink and enjoy the good of all his labor -- it is the gift of God.

I don't deny that people have a sense of something eternal. That is why religion is so popular. Every race under heaven has some form of religion because they recognize that they are not sovereign. But this is a classic case of Romans 1. People deny the true Creator and worship the creature.

No one seeks God. Everyone seeks a god of their own. You have to differentiate between what the Bible calls true worship and idolatry. All you people want to say that because people are worshipping something that they are seeking God and we just need to give them the road map to the real God. The Bible says that they are not seeking the real God, but rather seeking to elevate themselves through idolatry. They don't need a road map. They need a miracle of rebirth.

 

Ken, you are the profoundest expositor of Scripture I know of!

 

Webdog,

This has all become a game to you, it would seem. You 1st ask me about running for president…and make a statement about “Unconditional election is an oxymoron”

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/3643/15.html#000214

I took up the election statement and you said I needed to answer the president question.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/3643/15.html#000217

you then answer

“You mean I can't just call the White House and tell them that James is the new president?

God's requirements are similar, and not based on anything good within us, or good works, but what we do with His Son.

Ephesians 1:1-14 has the preposition "in Christ" or "in Him" ELEVEN TIMES connecting God's "elect" to Him.

This is election. The reqirements are put forth. Respond and live...reject and die. This is the whole Gospel message seen throughout the OT and NT. Denying this is denying the truth.”

****************


I say fine. You want to talk about Eph 1…lets do it. I post the whole passage and give my views.

And I follow by asking… based on the passage you picked

Who chooses who?

and..

when was the choosing?

Let me remind you…this was your passage you wanted to talk about.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/3643/16.html#000235

Webdog…this is how you reply

“Define "choose" or "choice", as many calvinists believe an option of one thing constitutes a "choice" (by definition not a true choice”

STILL PLAYING i see....

I ask you again..

James...
“If I may..i will take a line from your post.

"You did not anwser"”
*************

webdog plays on...
((If you can't define choose or choice, I can't answer.))

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/3643/17.html#000247
***************

even though it is up to you to define it…for you do on all other words…I play you game and define it.

And ask again

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/3643/17.html#000249
*************

NOW...this is when you answer…and you really DID NOT answer..did you?. You changed passages.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/3643/17.html#000250

A Game…this is all it is. What are you afraid of? The truth maybe?

If you want to talk about another verse fine. But I asked you about the passage you brought up. Do not play games. I have no time for sillyness.

Can you address the passage? if Not...you are showing your true colors.

 

&lt;blushing&gt;

)

 

James, your faulty play by play aside, dishonesty will get you nowhere. I answered your question, and I will do it again, since you have a hard time reading.

James asks: who did the choosing?

I answer: Based on your correct definition, God commands us to choose "life"...
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live,

I use another verse to stress the verse we were discussing. Rightly dividing Scripture means comparing Scripture TO Scripture.

James asks: when was the choosing?

I answer: When God drew us and convicted us to Him, as He said He would in John 12:32

I know you like to stay on one text, and act like that is the only text in the Bible, but the truth from Ephesians 1 is God chose us IN CHRIST...not "unconditionally", but conditionally, IN CHRIST. Those who have faith in Christ choose "life", those who do not by default choose "death".

If you don't like the answer, fine, but don't lie and claim that I did not answer "for the seventh time".