Fruits of Calvanism

But, Webdog, you want to say that God chose us IN CHRIST because we believed and that put us in Christ. The problem with that view is that Ephesians 1 says that He chose us in Him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. This is not a verse that is temporal depending on your choosing Christ. It is a verse that goes back before you were even born. You're interpretation falls apart when you read the next phrase.

 

Yet, you can ALSO say to me…

Now, can you explain to me why it is that you can say that you think my ideas regarding the nature of God, salvation, etc are “not biblical”, that my entire post was a “simple” statement which is “twisted… to form stawmen (sic) argument”, yet, at the very same time you can tell me that you don’t like to be “labeled, or talked down to as having an inferior view of God”??? This is simple hypocrisy webdog.

Now I don’t care if you label me, if you think I have an inferior view of God, if you think my ideas are not backed up by Scripture, that’s part of the reason I come to these forums, to test my views against Scripture.

But when you label me (scripture twister, creator of strawman arguments, giving unbiblical definitions of biblical words), don’t complain about being “labeled”.

When you say that I “twist simple statements”, then don’t complain about the assertion that you are not using Scripture improperly.

When you say that my arguments are nothing but straw man arguments, don’t complain when your arguments are taken apart and when I point out that your assertion that my argument is a “straw man” proves exactly nothing in regard to the verity or falsity of my argument. In other words, your saying that my argument is a straw man does not, I repeat DOES NOT automatically make it so.

You have to put a little effort into this conversation and actually PROVE it is a straw man, otherwise, you aren’t doing anyone any favors. You have done a disservice to yourself by not taking the time to actually examine the arguments close enough to form an intelligent rebuttal, or to even <GASP> see that you may be mistaken, and you have done me a disservice my not showing me the error of my ways.

And do not think that my disagreement with you is equal to “talking down to you”. If that is the way you respond to people biblically critiquing your views, whether you agree with the critique actually being biblical or not, you are in the wrong place. You need to find a place that is an “atta boy” club, where everyone tells you that you are the profoundest expositor of Scripture they know of, and they accept every idea that you have. If you are threatened or insulted because someone disagrees with you, then by being here, you are setting yourself up for serious emotional problems.

Blessings,
Ken </font>[/QUOTE]I really can care less if you agree with me or not. I do not feel "threatened or insulted" because you don't agree with me, as I have prayed about this subject a lot. I do have a problem with your "old man" and "santa claus" statement, and how you implied it towards me. You said...

To which I responded..."epistemaniac, if you want to believe I think of God as only "the man upstairs" or "Santa Claus" because I defend the TRUE sovereignty and love of God, we have nothing further to discuss. I don't like to be labeled, or talked down to as having an inferior view of God as you do."

This has nothing to do with people responding or "critiquing" my view.

 

How could we be chosen IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world? Because Christ was chosen before the foundation of the world, and those IN CHRIST are joint heirs with Him, hence WE were chosen IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world!

1Pe 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without defect or blemish.
1Pe 1:20 He was destined before the foundation of the world, but was revealed at the end of the times for you

 

It does not say that God chose Christ before the foundation of the world. It says that God chose US in Him before the foundation of the world. The direct object of the verb chose is "us." Sure there are other verses that talk about God choosing Christ. You forgot about the servant songs in Isaiah. They say the same thing.

But Ephesians 1 says He chose us. Did He also predestine Christ to be adopted as sons? Did He bless Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places? That would be ludicrous.

 

What is "it" that you keep referring to? The Bible is clear that Christ was to be the atonement for sin, and that HE was chosen for this purpose before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1 says He chose us..."in Christ". This is the link, and the reason we are chosen. All of the blessings, including being chosen are because we as believers are "in Christ".

You're twisting the text. He predestined us to be adopted as sons, because we are "in Christ", His only begotten Son, making us "sons of God".

He blessed us "in Christ" with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places. Why is "election" and being "chosen" so simple for calvinists to understand, but simple concepts of being linked to God "in Christ" so hard to understand?

 

ok..good....that was part one.

now again we need one more part

...same passage...when did God choose us in Christ?

part one...It was Gods choice

part two...when did this happen?

 

Webdog..

i...and any one can take one verse here...one there...out of context...and make in doctrine we want. but if we stick to context...we stick with the bible

***************
ok..lets do it this way...and this should work.

you post the top 5 passages that shows your views on election and man choosing God.

no notes needed

then..i'll post what i feel are the top 5 passages on election showing God choosing the elect.

i'll have no notes.

we will then compare each one...and see if we can agree.


deal?

 

"It" is the passage we have been dealing with in the last three pages of posts. Ephesians 1:4. You keep bringing in other passages and have yet to deal with the fact that the direct object of the verb "chose" in Ephesians 1:4 is not Christ. It is us.

No argument with this...

Yes. BUT, we don't receive those blessings because the Father chose Christ. Only Christ would receive those blessings if it was just that the Father chose Christ. We receive those blessings because the Father chose US. Again, the direct object is us, not Christ.

I'm am simply taking your view of Ephesians 1:4 and extending it to Ephesians 1:3 and Ephesians 1:5. You says that 1:4 says He chose Christ. Therefore, 1:3 must also say He blessed Christ. And Ephesians 1:5 must also say He predestined Christ. All of this is based on how you destroy the natural rendering of verse 4.

Yes, all of the blessings of Ephesians 1 come to us because we are in Christ. But verse 4 traces that back, not to our faith, but to His choosing us in eternity past. Why is it that you non-calvinists can understand all about being linked to God in Christ but find the truth of election so hard to understand?

In time and space, we become linked to the Father "in Christ" by grace through faith. But that is in Ephesians 2. Ephesians 1 traces it back to God's choosing and predestinating us. That is the plain reading of the verses.

 

You're just not getting it, no matter how many times people say it to you. World here means all peoples without distinction of heritage, nationality, etc. It doesn't mean every single person in the world who ever lived, lives or will live.

You should see a doctor about this obsession you have repeating an assumption that people have already debunked several times. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm still waiting on a "calvinist", any "calvinist, to explain how the God who said "HE" wasn't wiling for any to die would still "predestinate" some to hell.

"Still waiting".

 

You're just not getting it, no matter how many times people say it to you. World here means all peoples without distinction of heritage, nationality, etc. It doesn't mean every single person in the world who ever lived, lives or will live.

You should see a doctor about this obsession you have repeating an assumption that people have already debunked several times. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm still waiting on a "calvinist", any "calvinist, to explain how the God who said "HE" wasn't wiling for any to die would still "predestinate" some to hell.

"Still waiting". </font>[/QUOTE]And you will continue to wait. The reason? You do not accept the method of interpretation used my those who hold to Reformed soteriology. Look at it this way ME, you're speaking Dutch and we're speaking Greek. Neither one of us understand the other's language. Theologically that is excatly where you are with Reformed believers. I see a particular passage one way and you see it another. Add to that all the sarcasm and entrenched positions and you get "zero" agreement. That is why this debate has continued through various threads and always sounds the same. Have any of y ou ever noticed that the same verses are used almost all the time to defend or refute?

There is only one way (imho) that this debate can ever lead to a change of mind. Fervent prayer, study and a humble spirit willing to learn. This comment goes to both Reformers and Free Willers. Often time we never pray and what does pass for prayer is watered down. Study? Generally speaking it is a lost discipline in America. Humility? No "generally speaking" here. This is a nation of proud and arrogant Christians. No wonder few of us really listen. We're too busy wanting to be heard.

ME, in retrospect these comments were not directed at you but to the board as a whole.

 

Hi Me4Him,


Have you ever read..”Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” by Jonathan Edwards?

My guess is not. Let me say, it would be worth your time to read. Let me share with you my thoughts of predestination. For this we must start in the beginning.

What happened in the garden?

God made man…and it was good.

Yes Man was made upright and good. God blessed man with many things and man had need of nothing. God gave man a Freewill in that he could choose as he pleased. God set one tree in the garden and told man, “do not eat of this tree. Why was eating from the tree a sin? Lets go back before this time.


What is sin?

Sin is a transgression unto God.

What is evil?

Evil or the “sin principle” is to be viewed as a path. God did not make sin, nor evil. This could never happen for sin is going in the other way of Gods will. If something is Gods will, it is not sin so in making that “something”, it would not be sin. So…God can not make sin.

Satan was made with a will to choose whether or not he would follow God or not. Satan said…I WILL…I WILL…I WILL become as God. Meaning it was Satan’s “will” and Not Gods will that Satan chose. This was the start of evil, or the sin principle. Any one that followed Satan’s path away from God, followed an evil path away from God. Satan was then “the other choice” of those that were given a will. Other angels followed Satan, and was dammed forever. The choice was given to them, they said no to Gods will, and judgment was passed. They can NEVER return to God.

Lets move back to the garden.

God gave man a choice. God placed a tree in the garden and said, Adam;

“do not eat from this tree”.

God was saying…
Now Adam, if you eat from this tree, you are telling me..I want my own will over Gods will. Adam…do anything you want…but do not eat from the tree.

Adam eats from the tree..and followed Satan away from God. In doing so, Man was saying..i do not want your will God…I want my own will. This was a path away from God…or evil..or mans 1st sin…or the fall of man

All sins are like this. Sin is not the act of murder only. It is hating someone….thinking of ways to hurt that person…planning to kill that person….and the act of murder itself. All sins start in the heart…and takes a path away from Gods will.

Man in a sin nature is dammed. Man is on his way to hell. MAN is predestined to go to hell because of sin. ALL of mankind. You are born in sin..and need not sin…to go to hell.

Below is a clip from the book I talked about in the beginning of this post…


They are already under a sentence of condemnation to hell. They do not only justly deserve to be cast down thither, but the sentence of the law of God, that eternal and immutable rule of righteousness that God has fixed between him and mankind, is gone out against them, and stands against them; so that they are bound over already to hell. John 3:18. "He that believeth not is condemned already." So that every unconverted man properly belongs to hell; that is his place; from thence he is, John 8:23. "Ye are from beneath:" And thither he is bound; it is the place that justice, and God's word, and the sentence of his unchangeable law assign to him.

They are now the objects of that very same anger and wrath of God, that is expressed in the torments of hell. And the reason why they do not go down to hell at each moment, is not because God, in whose power they are, is not then very angry with them; as he is with many miserable creatures now tormented in hell, who there feel and bear the fierceness of his wrath. Yea, God is a great deal more angry with great numbers that are now on earth: yea, doubtless, with many that are now in this congregation, who it may be are at ease, than he is with many of those who are now in the flames of hell.

So that it is not because God is unmindful of their wickedness, and does not resent it, that he does not let loose his hand and cut them off. God is not altogether such an one as themselves, though they may imagine him to be so. The wrath of God bums against them, their damnation does not slumber; the pit is prepared, the fire is made ready, the fumace is now hot, ready to receive them; the flames do now rage and glow. The glittering sword is whet, and held over them, and the pit hath opened its mouth under them.

God has laid himself under no obligation, by any promise to keep any natural man out of hell one moment. God certainly has made no promises either of eternal life, or of any deliverance or preservation from eternal death, but what are contained in the covenant of grace, the promises that are given in Christ, in whom all the promises are yea and amen. But surely they have no interest in the promises of the covenant of grace who are not the children of the covenant, who do not believe in any of the promises, and have no interest in the Mediator of the covenant.
*****************************

It is in this setting that God sent his Son.

Know this…Mans will is in place still today. Man CAN choose

God says….Behold the Lamb of God.
Christ says…Whosoever will may come.

Yet..there are somethings that have change because of the fall. Man still having a will to choose is blind for mans will is no long free to choose God. The Bible calls him DEAD. The reason,…Satan, who is now sinful mans father, has bound mans will in evil so that Man no longer knows the truth. Man can learn of God, but will never see a need of God. Man says…no thanks to God.

Man is still in the same boat as before. Man is dammed and on his way to hell.

God reaches out…in grace and chooses some to be saved. Not because of what they did. Not because he is obligated. He did not save all that were dammed. You may ask, “why not save all”? I say, why did he save any?

So…sin the evil path man took, predestines us to hell.

Grace… predestines the elect of God to salvation.

All in all..Salvation is by God.

When did this all happen? From mans point of view, it was before the world was formed. With God there is no foreknowing. God simple KNOWS. God does not work with a time frame. To God one day is the same as 100 years.

I hope this helps..

I'll post verses if you need them.

In Christ...James

 

If you would read my answer to this statement (which I've posted repeatedly) instead of being so haughty with your smilies, you would have stopped waiting long ago. For the umpteenth time, even the local context of 2 Peter 3:9 says "toward us", which tells you who the "any" are.

So the verse is "God is not willing that any [of us, the elect] perish".

You insist on interpreting "any" to mean "every person who ever lived, lives or will live". As long as you interpret it that way, you will have a problem with this verse whether you are a Calvinist or a free willer. Either way, according to YOUR interpretation, God's will is not done. Either God is incompetent (He wants to save everyone but can't) or, as you say, a liar (He says He wants to save everyone but won't).

But you don't encounter this problem when you simply interpret the verse in context, which tells you that God is not willing that ANY OF HIS ELECT should perish. AND NONE OF HIS ELECT WILL PERISH. Therefore the will of the sovereign God is done.

Naturally, you'll pose this idiotic "puzzler" again and again, along with all your silly haughty smilies, anyway, as if nobody had ever explained to you where you've gone wrong.

 

You're just not getting it, no matter how many times people say it to you. World here means all peoples without distinction of heritage, nationality, etc. It doesn't mean every single person in the world who ever lived, lives or will live.

You should see a doctor about this obsession you have repeating an assumption that people have already debunked several times. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm still waiting on a "calvinist", any "calvinist, to explain how the God who said "HE" wasn't wiling for any to die would still "predestinate" some to hell.
</font>[/QUOTE]And you will continue to wait. The reason? You do not accept the method of interpretation used my those who hold to Reformed soteriology. Look at it this way ME, you're speaking Dutch and we're speaking Greek. Neither one of us understand the other's language. Theologically that is excatly where you are with Reformed believers. I see a particular passage one way and you see it another. Add to that all the sarcasm and entrenched positions and you get "zero" agreement. That is why this debate has continued through various threads and always sounds the same. Have any of y ou ever noticed that the same verses are used almost all the time to defend or refute?

There is only one way (imho) that this debate can ever lead to a change of mind. Fervent prayer, study and a humble spirit willing to learn. This comment goes to both Reformers and Free Willers. Often time we never pray and what does pass for prayer is watered down. Study? Generally speaking it is a lost discipline in America. Humility? No "generally speaking" here. This is a nation of proud and arrogant Christians. No wonder few of us really listen. We're too busy wanting to be heard.

ME, in retrospect these comments were not directed at you but to the board as a whole. </font>[/QUOTE]I couldn't agree with you more, as was posted "somewhere", if the spirit was teaching we'd all be of "one mind, one accord".

I figure any question man can ask, the Bible has an answer for it, and without contradicting it's self, and I can ask several questions which calvins doctrine can't answer, or even pose the question, and when man can ask question that his doctrine/Bible can't answer, the error is in the doctrine, not the scriptures.


As you said, most prefer "whatever" they "prefer", so any dishonesty is really between them and God, not me, it's going to be the way God prefers, like it or lump it, and the only option man has is to allow the spirit to teach him the "correct way", which Jesus will also one day bear witness.


I don't take anything said on these boards "personal", I've been around toooooo long for that.

 

I've heard of it, but never read it.

I don't disagee with the above,

Adam fell from Grace to sin, God/Jesus made it possible for the whole world to return to Grace from sin, "IF" they believe in Jesus.

It's not much of a god to let satan have victory over one soul, much less millions, but then the choice is man's to make, not God's,

would you care to explain "WHY" God even gave man a choice in the first place???

God doesn't save anyone who has no interest in the promises of the covenant of grace who are not the children of the covenant, who do not believe in any of the promises, and have no interest in the Mediator of the covenant, but that's the person fault, not God's.

God makes a call to these, but they reject it.

If God didn't send Jesus to condemn the world, and died for the sins of the whole world,

WHERE is the "exclusion" for a single person to perish, and contrary to God's will that not any should perish???

The answer is really not for me, but yourself, Can you deny God words??

God created hell for the angels, not mankind, did you have any idea of the difference between angels and men???

Foreknowledge is not predestine, two different words, two different meaning,

A day with God is a 1000 years, God told Adam, "IN THE DAY" you sin, you die,

Did you know that no person has lived a 1000 years since sin enter the world, all have "DIED IN THE DAY" they sinned, but guess what, we'll live a 1000 years on earth and not die. (MK)

 

me4him... you said

this is a simple issue really, perhaps you have not looked beyond this board for an explanation, though I suspect others here have tried to explain how this can be and you simply disagreed... often people fail to see the distinction between an "explanation" and an "explanation they can agree with", and they just write off all the explanations they get so that they can continue to say that there are no explanations... that is unfortunate, it's not fair to either side... at any rate... John Piper has done a great job of explaining how God can "will" things in different ways.... and I really think it is a great job, even if in the end you still come to disagree, which I suspect will be the case as no matter what explanations are offered, people are hardened into their various positions.... anyway... check it out for yourself, its not that long of a read.... at the very least you will no longer be able to honestly say "I'm still waiting on a "calvinist", any "calvinist, to explain how the God who said "HE" wasn't wiling for any to die would still "predestinate" some to hell."

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/2wills.html

blessings,
Ken

 

this is a simple issue really, perhaps you have not looked beyond this board for an explanation, though I suspect others here have tried to explain how this can be and you simply disagreed... often people fail to see the distinction between an "explanation" and an "explanation they can agree with", and they just write off all the explanations they get so that they can continue to say that there are no explanations... that is unfortunate, it's not fair to either side... at any rate... John Piper has done a great job of explaining how God can "will" things in different ways.... and I really think it is a great job, even if in the end you still come to disagree, which I suspect will be the case as no matter what explanations are offered, people are hardened into their various positions.... anyway... check it out for yourself, its not that long of a read.... at the very least you will no longer be able to honestly say "I'm still waiting on a "calvinist", any "calvinist, to explain how the God who said "HE" wasn't wiling for any to die would still "predestinate" some to hell."

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/2wills.html

blessings,
Ken </font>[/QUOTE]

How can you "exclude" "ANY PERSON" from the "FACT" that God did not send Jesus to condemn to world and died for sins of the whole world that the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved, because of God's love for the whole world he wasn't willing for any to perish and the "free gift" was offer to as many as were made sinner???

Joh 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?

11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

He got this part right, but then fail to understand the next.

"WRONG", Giving Satan dominion over the world/Saints is both "Chastisement/Wrath", man is reaping what man has sowed, God's spirit won't always strive with man, Judment has come, therefore the spirit of satan is given control over mankind, mercy for the flesh has ended, the Soul can still be saved, but not the flesh.


1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


Too many people try to explain what happens during the trib without understandin "WHY" it happens.

Judgment day is too late to be saved, and in life there's one too many rejections of God after which there's no hope of being saved, this is when God Harden.

If you'll go back and read the post by most calvinist, you'll find they consistently post "quotes" from books written by men about the bible, then put their "FAITH" in the words of these men being correct, even when they contradict the clear context of scriptures,

Personally, I see red flags all over the place, especially when the Scriptures say all we need is the scriptures/Spirit to teach us.

 

the point here, Me4him, is in relation to your saying:

I said I didn't care if you AGREED with the understanding a Calvinist might have on this subject, ONLY that you are now informed how it can be the case that in one way God does not desire the death of anyone, yet, in another way, God does desire it.

quoting me:

This is answered by Piper pointing out many Scriptures where God causes some things to happen that are not in accordance with another aspect of His will. To make it even broader, we could say that God doesn't want any sin to happen, yet, He still allows sinners to be born, knowing full well their individual life from beginning to end, and that they will in fact sin. So plainly God wills in one way, namely that no one sin... and yet wills in another... allowing persons to come into existence whom He knows will sin.

Part of the irony of this last post of yours is this;

on the one hand, you complain

So... I answered your request.... THEN you have the nerve to complain:

ROFLOL!!!!!!! ahhhhh well.... sometimes you just can't win... you give what they ask for (a Calvinist to explain their position), then they complain about getting those very "words of men" that they asked for!! LOL!!!

blessings,
Ken

 

So... I answered your request.... THEN you have the nerve to complain:

ROFLOL!!!!!!! ahhhhh well.... sometimes you just can't win... you give what they ask for (a Calvinist to explain their position), then they complain about getting those very "words of men" that they asked for!! LOL!!!

blessings,
Ken</font>[/QUOTE]"WHY" don't they "INCLUDE" all the scriptures in their "theories", instead of picking/chosing verses that "SEEM" to support those "theories"??

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

No "second death" is appointed to mankind, WHY, Jesus died for all sins so all "MIGHT BE" saved.

God rested on the "Seventh day", where did the "EIGHTH DAY" come from??

Do you know to what Im referring, Adam ended the Seventh day when he sinned, in effect creating an "EIGHTH DAY", when Sin/death enter the world, Jesus was also resurrected on the 8th day, first day of the week, and the GWT judgment is in the 8th day, after the MK (7th day) is over.

If Adam had not sinned, there wouldn't be an 8th day, Jesus resurrection, or a Judgment day.

But you won't find the 8th day as part of God's original creation days, he didn't "predestine" the 8th day.


There's a little more to the scriptures than these "professors" know, and ignorance of any part of the scripture can lead to incorrect interpretations.

 

Yes.. well you proven this to be true

at any rate, the point still stands, you asked for a Calvinist to explain their position, they/we did, and you complained about it..and when this was pointed out, you ignored it and changed the subject. I would have hoped for more from you.

at any rate, "they" do no such thing.. at least Arminius had to honor to recognize that while he strongly disagreed with Calvin on many things, he realized that Calvin was a foremost commentator on Scripture..... no proof texting there.. Arminius said

you will find, if you are honest and take the time to look, that Calvinists are, in general, first and foremost, people of the Book.. their works are saturated with the Scriptures, in fact, it was said of some Puritans that if you would prick their skin, they would bleed Bible.... you may disagree with interpretations, but don't create straw men... don't make untrue accusations.... they don't "pick and choose" and your post is a perfect example of the kind of protestations to the contrary... you merely assert that there is proof texting going on, you nowhere prove it, while in fact Piper's article was balanced and fair, quoting his theological opponents in full, treating them fairly, not creating straw men, and taking Scriptures in their context, and proving his position from the full counsel of God. You nowhere even address that position, let alone put a dent in that position.

blessings,
Ken

 

I'm still waiting on a "calvinist", any "calvinist, to explain how the God who said "HE" wasn't wiling for any to die would still "predestinate" some to hell.

The question remains unanswered.