Catholicity key to Church Unity

How much of what the Bible says on that subject is "allowed" for discussion by the RCC?

Note the words of (pope) Peter that are so necessary to ignore in the RC presentation of tis subject.

"Corresponding to that (the Arkof Noah) Baptism now saves you -- NOT the sacramental touch of holy water to the skin but rather the APPEAL to God for a clean conscience"

In other words - it is the choice of the one coming to Christ and also the appeal of that same one for a clean conscience. It is "not" in the power of the priest, or holy water etc. The "externals" have no "power" at all.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Notice the "Division" in the body of Christ proposed by the Catholic Church.

 

Some of the more difinitive RC statements on unity in the body of Christ...

In Christ,

Bob

 

The verse of Peter has not been ignored, look above in my post.

The one Baptism that Jesus Christ gave us is an outward sign of spritual reality. We die with Christ and rise with Christ. Those who had only John's baptism, didn't have the Holy Spirit. We must be born of water and the Holy Spirit. There is only one baptism, the one Jesus Christ gave us.

 

The Communion bread and wine is not "a sacrifice" nor "a continual sacrifice" because Christ made an end to all sacrifices - having already completed the sacrifice of Himself "once" for all time. It is "finished" - the sacrifice is "completed".

In Christ,

Bob

 

By “one OFFERING” not simply by “one sacrifice”.

We can no more deny the “ONE offering” than we can the “ONE sacrifice”.

To deny either – is to lose both.

Ooops! Did I already post that?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Kathryn,

You said, 'Ray: Jesus showed us that we must die with him to rise with Him. He told
John to go ahead with the baptism to fulfill what had to be done. He was
declared the Son of God by the Father and witnessed by the Holy Spirit.'

Ray is saying, 'You are 100% right in your above statements.'

You said, 'He was born again of water and the spirit.'

Kathryn, 'You must have found some defect in the Divine Son of God that He needed to be 'born again of water and the Spirit.' I know your Catholic Magisterium nor any other evangelical theologian will ever, ever agree with this innovation of yours. God does not need to be 'born again' like all sinners need to be regenerated. In case you don't know, that is what being 'born again of the Spirit' means.'

You said, 'This is why Jesus commanded we must be baptised in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit when we become a child of God and enter into the covenant.'

Ray is saying, 'We enter into an eternal covenant with Jesus, only happens when we receive Christ as Savior. [John 1:12] Only ' . . . as many as receive Him {Christ} to those gave He power (or the right) to become the sons of God, even to those who believe on His Name.'

You said, 'Jesus had no sin, but showed us what we had to do to be saved. We have to join Him in the one baptism.'

Ray is saying, 'You are right that Jesus never sinned. But, according to your own catalyst, Jesus only partook and ministered the Eucharist only once and that was on Maundy Thursday, the day before Good Friday. And according to Jesus pattern no one should be baptized as a baby but should wait until age thirty years old.'

Kathryn, you said, 'There is only one Baptism, we die with Christ and rise with
Christ.'

Ray is saying, 'On this issue you are holding hands with most Baptists. If you will read Romans chapter six you will find that God is speaking about being spiritually being baptized into -the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.' There is not one drop of water in Romans six. I will agree with you that when we come to know Christ we are risen with Jesus Christ. Colossians 3:1 says, 'If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above . . . '

You said, 'Those who had been baptised by John had to be baptised in the
name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.'

Ray is saying, 'I agree that those who followed John the Baptist also had to experience Christian baptism. Jesus had to do all that has done including His baptism. This was His public entrance into His ministry, as John the Baptist completes His mission here on earth.

I know you were brought up believing that baptism is necessary for a person's hope of Heaven. The sinner on the Cross did not experience any mode of baptism and the Bible says that the only requirement for Heaven is to believe, meaning, to trust in He and His blessed atonement. Read: Acts 2:21 & Acts 16:31 & John 3:16.

We baptize people to portray to the world and in the presence of His church that we are not ashamed to claim His Name and mission to this world. If we believe in infant baptism it is the sign of the covenant, as circumcision was the sign of the former covenant.

 

Bob: No multiple sacrifices. No new sacrifices. This is how we share in the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ with the one bread we break and the cup of blessing we bless. St. Paul explains in Holy Scripture:

“Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?” Since there is one bread , we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread . 1 Corinthians 10:16-17

 

Ray:

Jesus Christ is true God and true man. He was born as a baby, and later He was born with water and the Holy Spirit in His baptism. He was declared the Son of God and witnessed by the Holy Spirit. He gave us the same baptism where we die with Him and rise with Him. He commanded this in the Great Commission where the Trinity witnesses our baptism when done in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.


You are wrong here about Jesus administering the Eucharist only once the day before Good Friday. Jesus Christ ministered the Eucharist again after He rose from the dead. Jesus rebuked the Apostles and called them foolish for not remembering all He commanded them. Because they failed to have this unity, they were blinded to recognizing Him even though they were Christians, loved Him, and were His followers. It was through the Eucharist that Jesus Christ opened their eyes, and they recognized Him and remembered.

Luke 24:30
When He had reclined at the table with them, He took the bread and blessed it, and breaking it, He began giving it to them.

Luke 24:31
Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished from their sight.


You need multiple types of Baptism to deal with your beliefs. Jesus Christ gave us one. One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Matthew 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

 

Kathryn,

Do you believe that every time the word baptism is used in the New Testament it is talking about water baptism? If you do you must believe in baptismal regeneration? There is only one true baptism as I stated earlier it is the baptism of Christ with the Spirit and fire. Water baptism is a ritual, it is an outward act of obedience to testify of a believers desire to be identified with Christ.

In stating that Jesus was born of water and the Holy Spirit at His baptism you are stating as a man Jesus needed to be saved as we do. He is the eternal Christ and had no need to be born of the Spirit as we do, there was never a time He, the Father and the Spirit were not one. Remember in the incarnation He is eternal God who took on flesh. He is not a man who became the Son of God at His baptism. Isaiah 9:6--"Unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given".

His baptism by John was to fulfill Scripture. He was identifying himself with John's ministry and message. After all John was not the only one baptizing in that day. The proclaimation of God when He said, "this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased" was not for Jesus' sake, it was for ours. Jesus already knew who His Father was, at age 12 He said to His mother, "did you not know that I would be about My Father's business."

There is only one body, one baptism, one bread the difference and what seems to be causing a lack of unity, and always has is the biblical identity of these. Your tradition has one view and my faith has another. I believe yours is primarily built on church tradition, while mine is built on biblical doctrine. I know you don't agree that is why we are not unified on these matters.
Bro Tony

 

Bro Tony:
Jesus Christ gave us His one baptism. He did this for our sake not His. He was declared the Son of God at His baptism for our benefit. The Holy Spirit was the witness. He did not become the Son at the time. As true God, He has always been the Son. As true God and true man without sin, he submitted to the one Baptism into His death and Resurrection. John's baptisms were not the one baptism Jesus gives us. Holy Scripture teaches John's baptism was one of repentence and believing in Jesus Christ.

“Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." Acts 19:4

This was not the one baptism they needed after the Redemption. They did not have the Holy Spirit by repenting and believing in Him. Those who had John's baptism needed Jesus’ baptism of water and the Holy Spirit . There is only one Baptism for the Christian, the one Jesus gives us whereby we die with Him and rise with Him and are declared a child of God:

Matthew 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit",

 

Kathryn,

Did you actually read my post. I never have stated that John's baptism is the one true baptism. Never have never will, by the way I got into a debate with a Baptist Brider over this very issue. I agree with you that there is one true baptism. I do not agree it has anything to do with water. You have yet to answer my question, do you believe that when the New Testament speaks of baptism it always refers to water being involved? Do you believe that without water baptism one cannot be saved?

Bro Tony

 

Kathryn,

You said, 'You are wrong here about Jesus administering the Eucharist only once the
day before Good Friday. Jesus Christ ministered the Eucharist again after He
rose from the dead. Jesus rebuked the Apostles and called them foolish for
not remembering all He commanded them. Because they failed to have this
unity, they were blinded to recognizing Him even though they were
Christians, loved Him, and were His followers. It was through the Eucharist
that Jesus Christ opened their eyes, and they recognized Him and
remembered.'

Ray is saying, 'After His death on the Cross, burial, and resurrected He merely wanted nourishment. This has nothing to do with Eucharist because He would have given to them bread and wine, and this is not what is said. On Maundy Thursday before His death they received of both kinds, as is recorded in I Corinthians chapter eleven. And again in Luke 24:41-43 they ate food again as in 24:30.

I am not sure why the disciples did not recognized Jesus but it was not because of some lack of unity. They rejoiced not because of your alleged Holy Communion, but because He preached to them as duly noted in verses 25-32.

Luke 24:30
When He had reclined at the table with them, He took the bread and blessed
it, and breaking it, He began giving it to them.

 

Here is something interesting about this one bread that Jesus Christ called the apostles foolish for not remembering to do.

Luke 24:30
And it came to pass, when he had sat down with them to meat, he took the bread and blessed; and breaking [it] he gave to them.

Luke 24:31
And their eyes were opened, and they knew him ; and he vanished out of their sight.


Luke 24:35
And they rehearsed the things [that happened] in the way, and how he was known of them in the breaking of the bread.


Not a work of man, and not just a representation or symbol. The one bread is the key to the unity Jesus Christ promised. It really is how we are to know Jesus Christ. He is the Bread of Life.

 

Kathryn,

If you say that water baptism is so vital, what do you do with JOHN 4:2. Certainly, if it was crucial for salvation Jesus would have been doing it. Then what about 1 CORINTHIANS 1:10-17 and especially verse 17 where Paul says, "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." Again if baptism was necessary surely the greatest missionary the church has ever known would have made sure he baptized all he led to Christ.

Bro Tony

 

Bro Tony:
Jesus gave the Great Commission for His Apostles to go out to all nations and baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This was immediately before He ascended to heaven. It was needed under the New Covenant. Jesus did not baptize. He had not sent the Holy Spirit yet, but promised to. The Apostles were given this commission.

1 Corinthians 1:16
"Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other."

Paul was chastizing them for quarreling and not being of one mind.

"Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." 1 Corinthians 1:12

He was telling them that it makes no difference who does the baptizing. He even admits that he did baptize some of them. Apollos baptized some. Cephas (Peter) baptized others. Paul's job or work is preaching the gospel. Paul's work is not baptism. Remember baptism is the work of God. Who baptizes someone matters not an iota, and it sure is nothing to quarrel about. Maybe this is the reason Jesus didn't baptize. People would have thought their baptism from Jesus, better than someone elses.

[ April 07, 2004, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

Kathryn - is it your position that this is not a "continual sacrifice"?

Is it your position that in the Eucharist you offer "no sacrifice"?

Is it your position that all Christians in all denominations are "in unity" by virtue of the fact that they all celebrate the Lord's supper?

Is it your position on unity that participation in the communion service in any denomination is valid and that is what makes us all "united in Christ"?

Is it your position from 1Cor 11 that this is a true "memorial service" where the sharing of the cup and the bread is done "in rememberance" of Christ rather than "to Christ"?

Is it your position that the subject of 1Cor 10 regards actually engaging in demons that are themselves being sacrificed as you claim for the continual offering and sacrifice of Christ?

Notice that 1Cor 10 is showing that SAME participation with demons as with the eucharist in terms of "involvment" of the one you are addressing.

Paul is equating the eucharist and the food offerred to demons as equivalent acts done to opposite entities and he argues that we should not give to demons the same level of worship as to God. Do you really think the demons are sacrificed?

The approach you are taking here - leaves many questions unnanswered.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The "division" between the Catholic idea of God being continually sacrificed - and the Protestant concept of a 1Cor 11 memorial done "in rememberance of Me" is illustrated in this RC document.

Here the RCC tells us clearly that the gap between them is so large that from the non-RC perspective the RC practice is in fact "idolatry" because they treat what the non-RC calls "bread" as though it were "God".


The Faith Explained – A bestselling RC commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II by Leo J. Trese is promoted as “A standard reference for every Catholic home and library”. Complete with Papal Imprimatur -- Quote from page 350-351 with parenthetical inserts “mine”

In Christ,

Bob

 

Brother Tony,

What you said here about sums it all up.

You said something to the effect the the Apostle Paul baptized very few people. His ministry was to witness and preach about the Gospel of forgivenss.

Forgiveness of sins by God is what and Who saves; baptism proclaims to the world and the church that His work and ministry of reconciliation has been completed.