Baptist Commentator

Originally posted by Frank:
DHK:
You said,The word "water" is used 396 times in 363 verses of the Bible. You can rest assured that every time you see the word "water" it does not mean "baptism," and this happens to be one of those times.
Prove by the harmonious evidence of the totality of the scriptures that your ASSERTION is true. Prove by the same standard that John 3:3-5 has nothing to do with baptism.

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Surely you jest! You are implying that in nearly 400 times that the word water is use it always means baptism. Is this correct?

(Gen 2:10 KJV) And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

(Gen 16:7 KJV) And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.

(Gen 18:4 KJV) Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:

(Gen 21:14 KJV) And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.

I don't intend to go through all 396 references for you. The above are the first four references in the Bible where water is mentioned, and none of them refer to baptism. It is evident that the great majority of verses in the Bible referring to water do not refer to baptism. If you would like to prove that they do, then you would have give me approximately 200 references containing the word "water" all referring to baptism. I will leave that study to you.

Does the word "water" in John 3:5 refer to baptism?
No, there is no evidence, Biblical or otherwise, to demonstrate that "water" in John 3:5 refers to baptism, other than one's own presuppositions.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Notice that the scholars of the King James translation correctly translated the word "Spirit" in verses 5 and 6, with a capital "S," indicating that the word refers to the Holy Spirit. One must be born again of the Spirit of God. This is the clear teaching of verses five and six. Without the Holy Spirit of God it is impossible to be saved, impossible to be born again, impossible to enter into the Kingdom of God.
"Spirit" definitely refers to the "Holy Spirit."
"Water" definitely does not refer to "baptism."

"Water" may refer to natural birth, as Briguy contends.
It is my belief that "water" of John 3:5 refers symbolically to the Word of God, as is borne out by other Scripture. Compare Scripture with Scripture.
The principle truth here is "You must be born again!" What does the Scripture teach about being born again? How is one born again?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
--One becomes a son (child) of God by believing on the name of Christ. Verse 13 goes on to say that we are born of God. It also tells us that we cannot be born of the blood, the flesh, or the will of man. Baptism is an act of the will of man. You decide if you want to be baptized. It is a choice you make. You are not born of the will of man. You are not born of baptism. You are born of God. That is the first thing one needs to note in this context.

Secondly: In the study of water we find that it is a cleansing agent. Though this is ought to be obvious to even the most casual of readers, we will find Biblical support for it in Jer.2:22
22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.

Take as much water as you like, and the strongest possible soaps that you can find, scrub as hard as you will, but you will never, never wash away your sin with water. Jeremiah uses this illustration because both water and soap are cleansing agents, otherwise the illustration would not make sense.
Water is a cleansing agent. So is the Word of God.

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
--Jesus uses the Word to cleanse His disciples. He says to us, that we are clean through the Word. The Word, like water, is a cleansing agent. The water is symbolic of the Word. Both are cleansing agents. Water does not symbolize baptism; rather the Word of God. Let's continue.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
? The word "begat" here speaks of birth. Of God's will, he gave us new birth with the word of truth. We were born again! How? Through the Word of God. The Word of God is a primary agency of the new birth. You must be born again: How? By the Spirit of God, and by the Word of God. Continue on in Scripture:

1Pet.1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
--- Peter also says that one is born again by the Word of God.

There are only two things mentioned in Scripture, two agencies by which one is born again: the Word of God, and the Spirit of God. This would lead one to the obvious conclusion that "water" is symbolic of "the word" in John 3:5, given the weight of the evidence above. You must be born again. You must be born by the Spirit of God. You must be born by the Word of God.
DHK

DHK:
The contention was not the number of times water is mentioned. You ignored or missed the point entirely. I asked that by the TOTALITY OF THE EVIDENCE ON THE TOPIC AT HAND, PROVE THAT WATER IN JOHN 3:3-5 IS NOT BAPTISM IN WATER.

You said,"Does the word "water" in John 3:5 refer to baptism?
No, there is no evidence, Biblical or otherwise, to demonstrate that "water" in John 3:5 refers to baptism, other than one's own presuppositions.

This is a blatant disregard for the passages that teach that water baptism is essential to salvation and in complete harmony with the text of John 3:3-5, and the totality of the evidence. Water is linked to the word. Eph. 5:26 It is not symbolic of the word. They are two different words in the original text entirely. Verse 27 of Eph. 5 teaches it is by the washing of water by the word men are saved. Jesus spoke those words in Mark 16: 16. Again, harmonious with the text of John 3:3-5. Furthermore, this washing puts one in contact with the blood of Christ. Rev. 1:5. It is through water baptism one contacts the blood of Christ. Acts 22:16; Acts 2:38, Romasn 6: 3-5. This puts one IN Christ. Gal. 3:26,27. Again, harmonious with the " New Birth" of John 3:3-5. Notice II Cor. 5: 17. It says, " If any man be IN CHRIST he is a NEW CREATURE old things are passed away behold all things have become new. Again, harmonious with the rest of the divine record and John 3:3-5.

The claim that Jesus is using a physical birth to contrast that of the spiritual and that water has nothing to do with it is foolishness. Mk. 16:16,Acts 8:39. When Jesus was preached to the eunoch, vs.35, it included water baptism for unto the remission of sins as Jesus has commanded, Mk. 16:16,Acts 10: 38. The Eunoch rejoiced AFTER HE WAS BAPTIZED FOR UNTO THE REMISSION OF SINS. The Calvinistic saying outward sign of inward grace is simply foolishness based on the BIBLE. The Eunoch rejoiced when his sins were washed away, not before when he stood seperated from God.

The conversion of Saul of Tarsus demonstrates the essentiality of water baptism.In Acts 9: 6, Jesus told Saul to go into the city and there it would be told unto thee WHAT THOU MUST DO! You say a man can do nothing.Jesus said there is something we must do.
Let's look at the divine record of his conversion.
1. Paul was not saved on the road to Damascus as he did not know the Lord. Acts 9:5. If so, Paul did not know it as he went into the city to be told what he must do, DEI, divine imperative, not optional!
2. The Lord did not know Paul was saved as he told him where to go and there he would be told What he Must DO! Acts 9:6
3.The preacher Ananias did not know it as he told Paul what he must do! Acts 22:16.
Finally, the gospel of Christ which saves all men was preached by ananias by the command of Christ to this believing penitent man and he obeyed the form of doctrine delivered Romans 6:17,18 and was baptized In Christ for unto the remission of sins to become a new creature IN Christ by putting away the old man of sin and becoming a new Creature from the watery grave of baptism being washed in the precious blood of Christ. I Pet. 1:17,18, Acts 2:38-41, Acts 8:18, I Pet 3:21, Gal. 3:26,27, Col. 2:12, Acts 8:12, 39; 22: 16, Romans 6: 3-5, Acts 16: 33, Mark 16:16.
Therefore, one must rationaly conclude by the totality and harmonious evidence the new birth includes baptism in water.

DHK, your first statement about no evidence is a cistern a broken one that holds no water. Jer. 2:13. No pun intended!

DHK:
Ther is no definitive article used in the original language as it pertains to the Holy Spirit. If the word is not in the original language,and it is not, it is a false suppositon to insist it is correctly worded in the english text. Furhtermore, the greek language does not employ capital letters or indefinite articles. Those are added by men! Furthermore,this being the case, and based on the original language the word Hagios or a root for Holy would have been used to identify specifically the Holy Spirit. It was not used by the Holy Spirit in the divine writings of John. his word is also absent from the text. You have built your entire doctrine of these passages on unsupported, assertion and assumption.
Your implication that the word saves in and of itself is unsupported by the totality of the evidence. The word cleanses and saves when men respond to it,not before. Hebrews 11:6. Jesus he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned. One must know or hear what he must do to believe it. Romans 10:17. he must believe and resPond( baptism) to be saved. The failure to accept the word will result in one not reponding and being lost. You have the word as a dead letter. THE DEVIL BELIEVES BUT WILL NOT REPSOND. HE IS STILL THE DEVIL.James 2:19. The priests of John 12: 42 belived but did not respond. They refused to confess. Again, a command of christ. ( Mat. 10;32). They were lost as the word brought no fruit. Luke 8:15.

Originally posted by Frank:

You said,"Does the word "water" in John 3:5 refer to baptism?
No, there is no evidence, Biblical or otherwise, to demonstrate that "water" in John 3:5 refers to baptism, other than one's own presuppositions.

This is a blatant disregard for the passages that teach that water baptism is essential to salvation and in complete harmony with the text of John 3:3-5, and the totality of the evidence. Water is linked to the word. Eph. 5:26 It is not symbolic of the word. They are two different words in the original text entirely. Verse 27 of Eph. 5 teaches it is by the washing of water by the word men are saved. Jesus spoke those words in Mark 16: 16. Again, harmonious with the text of John 3:3-5. Furthermore, this washing puts one in contact with the blood of Christ. Rev. 1:5. It is through water baptism one contacts the blood of Christ. Acts 22:16; Acts 2:38, Romasn 6: 3-5. This puts one IN Christ. Gal. 3:26,27. Again, harmonious with the " New Birth" of John 3:3-5. Notice II Cor. 5: 17. It says, " If any man be IN CHRIST he is a NEW CREATURE old things are passed away behold all things have become new. Again, harmonious with the rest of the divine record and John 3:3-5.

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Eph.5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph.5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph.5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Verse 25 speaks of the love of Christ that Christ demonstrated for His church. He so loved the church, that he gave himself for it. His love was demonstrated by his sacrifice.
Verse 26 speaks of Christ's love for the church during this present time through His work of sanctification. To sanctify simply means to set apart. Positionally all that are in the church (the redeemed) have been set apart or sanctified already. Practically, the believer is set apart day by day, going through a process of moral and spiritual preparation.
"By the washing of water by the word." Hear what one commentator says on this passage:
"In simple terms this means that the lives of believers are cleansed as they hear the words of Christ and obey them. Thus Jesus said to the disciples, "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you" (John 15:3). And He linked sanctification with the word in His high priestly prayer: "Sanctify them by your truth. Your word is truth." (John 17:17). Just as the blood of Christ cleanses once for all from the guilt and penalty of in, so the word of God cleanses continually from the defilement and pollution of sin. This passage teaches that the church is being bathed at the present time, not with literal water, but with the cleansing agent of the Word of God." (Believer's Bible Commentary, William MacDonald)

Jesus spoke those words in Mark 16: 16. Again, harmonious with the text of John 3:3-5. Furthermore, this washing puts one in contact with the blood of Christ. Rev. 1:5. It is through water baptism one contacts the blood of Christ. Acts 22:16; Acts 2:38, Romasn 6: 3-5. This puts one IN Christ. Gal. 3:26,27. Again, harmonious with the " New Birth" of John 3:3-5. Notice II Cor. 5: 17. It says, " If any man be IN CHRIST he is a NEW CREATURE old things are passed away behold all things have become new. Again, harmonious with the rest of the divine record and John 3:3-5.

Jesus spoke these words in Mark 16:16, "he that believeth not shall be damned." Those are significant words are they not? Jesus did not say he that believes not and is baptized not shall be damned. That condition is never mentioned in the New Testament. "He that believeth not is condemned already because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:18). The rejection of baptism does not condemn; the rejection of Christ--unbelief does condemn.

Rev.1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
--You mention this verse. There is nothing about baptism here. Our sins our washed away by the blood of the lamb--Jesus Christ. Put your faith in Him, not baptism. Good verse! However there is no possible way that one contacts the blood through baptism. That is plain superstition, if not heresy.
Christ blood is all sufficient to take away our sin. He doesn't need my baptism. He doesn't need my works. Salvation is all of grace. Jesus paid it all. There is nothing I can do to merit eternal life, including getting baptized.
DHK

Originally posted by Frank:
DHK:
Ther is no definitive article used in the original language as it pertains to the Holy Spirit. If the word is not in the original language,and it is not, it is a false suppositon to insist it is correctly worded in the english text. Furhtermore, the greek language does not employ capital letters or indefinite articles. Those are added by men! Furthermore,this being the case, and based on the original language the word Hagios or a root for Holy would have been used to identify specifically the Holy Spirit. It was not used by the Holy Spirit in the divine writings of John. his word is also absent from the text. You have built your entire doctrine of these passages on unsupported, assertion and assumption

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Romans 8:9-11
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Six times in these three verses is the word "Spirit" used without the word "hagios" or "Holy." Does it refer to the Holy Spirit or not? Of course it does. You are being very presumptious to say that the word "pneuma" refers to something other than the Holy Spirit of God. Context necessitates that it refers to the Holy Spirit and nothing else.

"ek tou pneumatoV pneuma estin" (John 3:6b) that which is born "of the Spirit is spirit" "Ek tou," "of the," "tou," "the" There most certainly is a definite article in front of the word captilized as Spirit in John 3:6. The context of John 3:6, speaking of the Holy Spirit, gives the context also to verse five, speaking of the Holy Spirit.
You must be born of the Holy Spirit. There are no exceptions in this.
DHK

Carol, I have not been believer baptized. You make the call based on what you believe. Am I going to Heaven if I die today?? When you answer keep in mind the person (me) you have posted with of late.

Is this what the "brother"/"sister" thing was about?

DHK, thank you for making the case against "water" not being baptism. I could not have done it near as well. I guess that is why God has you teaching this stuff, isn't it?

Frank, I have nothing to add at this point to what DHK has said. For every one scripture that talks about savation and baptism in the same thought there is many that talk about salvation without talking of baptism. The vast verse volume is on mine and DHK's side of this one. I know you know that.

In Love, Truth, and Peace,
Brain

[ October 22, 2002, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

Carol, You neglected to answer my question. This is important stuff here and I have to know, where would I go if I died today? (according to your belief). Please don't imply it, just come right out and say it. I am a big boy (actually I am pretty short ) and can handle it just fine.

btw, your post was not snooty at all you are doing a great job of being nice, keep it up sister (oops, sorry, forgot I can't say that )

In Christ,
Brian

DHK:
Let me suggest you learn the rules of grammar. The rules of grammar do not require and in fact are violated had Christ worded the scripture the way you want. It is what grammarians call redundancy. He who eats food and digest it will be healthy but he that does not eat shall not be healthy. Are you saying a man can digest what he does not eat. By your reasoning of Mark 16:16 you think he can.
Jesus said, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be damned.
The rules of grammar indicate the following:
1.And connects ideas. It is a coordinating conjunction.
2. The coordinating and connects two in LIKENESS. He that believeth and is baptized are one.
3. But is a conjunction that contrasts or makes DISSIMILAR two things. These things may be words,clauses or phrases.
4. But contrasts the first clause with the second. The requirement is that they be dissimilar. Thus, the first clause is contrasted by he that believeth not shall be damned.
5. It is redundant to repeat that which has already been contrasted.
6. Therefore, the first clause is masde dissimilar to the second by the phrase believeth not.

Briguy:
Your assertion about the evidence is false. If one takes ALL the evidence and harmonmizes it, your case cannot be made. One must array scripture against scripture and not harmonize them to defend uyor fasle position. As you know,I have challenged you to present the totality of evidence to support your claim. You fail to do it. You just make foolish and unsubstantited statements unsupported by the original language and the totality of evidence.
Furthermore, I can use your hermeneutic to prove faith saves, repentance saves, confesssion saves, and baptism saves. In these passages they are the ONLY THINGS MENTIONED.
Consider the following:
1. In John 8:24, Jesus said, except ye believe that I am he ye shall die in your sins. Only belief is identified. Do you ignore the rest of the scriptures that teach the other parts.
2. In Romans 10:10 only confession is identified. Do you ignore the rest of the parts?
3. In Acts 11:18 only repentance is mentioned. Do you ignore the others?
4. In I Pet. 3:21 baptism is mentioned. Do you ignore the rest of the scrirptures?
5. In Acts 15: 11 grace only is mentioned? Do you ignore the rest?
6. In Rev 1:5 blood only is mentioned. Do you ignore the rest?
7. In Romans 1:16, the gospel only is mentioned. Do you ignore the rest?
The truth is all of those things mentioned are essential to salvation. If not, then the Bible contradicts itself and it is impossible to know the truth. This makes Jesus a lair, John 8:32 as he said we could know the truth.
When one of the parts are mentioned the rest are implied. This is what grammarians call synecdoche. This word means a part for the whole or the whole for it's parts. So it is with salvation. When one part is mentioned the rest are implied.
You not only make irrational statements but fail to understand both grammar and hermeneutics. I would like for you to address this post item by item and as a whole and harmonize your position with God's word. I have my doubts that you will do so for two reasons. One, you cannot by the totality and harmony of the evidence defend your position. Two,if you do make an attempt to do so, you must in order to defend your position simply ignore the totality of the evidence and array scripture against scripture thus making the Bible contradictory and false. By the way, the Psalmist said, "The Sum of Thy Words Are Truth."Psalsm 119:160.
I am wondering which approach you will use number one or two.

Originally posted by Briguy:
Carol, You neglected to answer my question. This is important stuff here and I have to know, where would I go if I died today? (according to your belief). Please don't imply it, just come right out and say it. I am a big boy (actually I am pretty short

) and can handle it just fine.

In Christ,
Brian

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Briiiiaaann, I did answer your question according to the Bible...and not my belief. Read it again!

IMO, it really bothers you that you haven't been baptized, doesn't it? Because you don't really know if it is Biblical or not. Right?

MEE

DHK:
Again, instead of harmonizing the evidence you seek to array scripture against scripture to defend your false doctrine.
1. In Eph 5: 26,27 the Bible says of the church that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of the water by the word. It is obvious that the water here is a refernce to baptism as the totality of the divine evidence requires it. Acts 22:16, And now why tarriest thou arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins.
Acts 2:38," repent ye and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of sins."Acts 8: 28-40; 8:12-16. James 1:18, I Pet. 1:23 teaches us that the instrument of regeneration is the word of God which requires one to be baptized. See above. God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and BELIEF of the truth: whereunto he called you through our gospel to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. II Thes. 2:13,14. Here again the belief is the instrument of salvation and sanctification. Whether we call it the truth, the word,the gospel the sinner is begotten by his belief active in the word that directs him to be baptized for unto the remission of sins. Acts 2:38; 22:16. Furhtermore, the washing of baptism is GOD'S OPERATION TO SAVE. COL. 2:12. It is the word of God that directs us to be washed by baptism into his death contacting his blood. For without the shedding of blood is no remission.Hebs 9:22. Furthermore,the Bible says in Hebrews 10: 19-22,"19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21And having an high priest over the house of God; 22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Peter connects baptism and washed by the blood in I Pet. 1:2 and 3:21.2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: In Mark 14:24 Jesus said," this is my blood of the New Testament which is shed for many." Jesus said in Rev.1:5, "5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood."
God used many like figures to save men. 1. He used a serpent in Numbers 21:8,9, He used the flood in Gen. 6. He used blood of animals in Exodus 12:21-23,21Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover. 22And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning. 23For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you. In Exodus 14:13-16, I Cor.10:1,2. God chose baptism in the Red Sea as a means to save Israel. " 13And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever. 14The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace.
15And the LORD said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward: 16But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea. "1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea. God has chosen to use water baptism to day to save. Acts 8:39,2:38.
You are driven by the evidence to that which yuo do not like which is Hyper-Calvinism. The word is dead letter. It is a dead letter because you must have a direct opereation of the Holy Spirit to defend your teaching but the evidence will not let you have the baptism of the Holy Spirit either. So then, you try to use the word without any activity of man in reponding to it. The inspired writngs of Hebrews want you have it that way either. Hebrews 11:6 and the entire book. So you attempt to array scripture against scripture to defend your false teaching. This is the second approach false teachers use.I am waiting to see if Briguy uses the first. That method is simply ignore all the pertinent evidence on the subject and use only one scripture to represent his doctrine. I have already put tahtone to rest ina previous post as I have put yours to rest in this one. Have a good day.

Finally, you make too many conclusions without evidence to support it. The real heresay is the calvinistic doctrine you espouse and cannot sustain by the totality of the harmonious and divine evidence from God.

Frank, you sure do have a way with words!

Really appreciated that last post.

Brian, Frank said what I wish I had the knowledge to say to you. Read his post and let it sink in!

MEE

DHK:
Your contention of verse six has ntothing to do with the pastr events of verse 5,6. The text of 3-5 does not employthe definitive articel indicating the HOly Spirit. Furthermore, the reference here is to a past event taking place. Therefore, your contention changes absolutel nothing that is revealed in the event of three and five. Again, simply trying to array scripture against scripture. The cordinating conjunctionand connects two the spirit and water inLikeness or equally. You do not like it so you just try to make it go away. That is your problem. Pneuma may refer to man's spirit,or the members of the Godhead. I Cor.2:11 employs Pneuma for man's spirit. In verse 12 pneuma is used for the spirit of the world. In verse 14 it is used for God's spirit. Finally, the spirt of verse six implies by verse three and five this is a unique spiritual happening. Obviously, it does say born a new or anothen from above. The Birth is, in fact, spiritual requiring equally water and spirit. I affirm both as the text demands. You must refuse the water part as your false doctrine want let you have it any other way.

Furthermore, if you really want to get it right in the greek you must also know the voice of the context which obviously you did not study. In verse 3 it is in the passive voice, However, in verse 5 it is in the active voice, in other words Jesus considered it done in verse 3 but in verse 5 it was for Nicodemus to act upon active voice, That is not nearly it. That is it!

MEE:
I will assume your comment was a compliment. I appreciate it very much. Yes, I have a tendency to strike a nerve. This is a good thing!
Mee, I am not an eloquent man with words. However, I take heart in knowing that the Lord was a great teacher and employed, for the most part, one syllable words of five letters or less, Again , have a good day.

Frank, two things. First that last post to MEE actually showed a little heart and softness. Thank you for letting me see that side of you.

Second, you wrote:
"Two,if you do make an attempt to do so, you must in order to defend your position simply ignore the totality of the evidence and array scripture against scripture thus making the Bible contradictory and false."

With that said why would I answer you when you have already said what my answer would prove. I know you think my mind is closed to the subject but really it isn't. The Bible is a huge book and I have never said I know it all. I love to read the posts of other and challange myself on the doctrine I hold to. You on the other hand, if you said above what you meant to say, are not open to learning, you are only open to sharing what you believe. I will however consider your request. It may take until the weekend to answer appropriately and DHK will probably andswer before that.

I do see your position, thanks for posting.

Carol, you just can't get yourself self to type that you believe I am going to hell if I die today. If you believe it should not be hard to say it. If you can't say it (write it that is) then maybe you really don't believe it.(on the inside, where your heart is). So I give you another chance. Please answer the question directly and not with Bill Clinton answers

In Love and Truth,
Brian

[ October 23, 2002, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

You know, I hate to bring this up again, but could someone please give me the name of a pre-reformation theologian or commentator that clearly stated a "Baptistic" system?

My thinking is that if there were indeed "Baptistic" churches before the reformation, some deacon or pastor would have written a sermon or tract or something that would have laid out the theology (ie. the Baptist distinctives)in a concise way.

Can anyone offer such a name?

Ron

[ October 23, 2002, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Carol, you just can't get yourself self to type that you believe I am going to hell if I die today. If you believe it should not be hard to say it. If you can't say it (write it that is) then maybe you really don't believe it.(on the inside, where your heart is). So I give you another chance. Please answer the question directly and not with Bill Clinton answers

In Love and Truth,
Brian[/QB]

Click to expand...

T2U, we have got off your topic and I apologize. Let me answer Brian's question and then I will got off this subject of salvation. OK?

Yes Brian it is hard for me to be so blunt. I don't like to hurt anyone's feelings. Your picture reminds me of my son and I wouldn't want anyone to be so harsh to him. He's my baby, although he is a grown man with children. (I got an early start)

You are like Cornelius in Acts the 10th chapter. I feel that you do love serving God, but you need more, just as he did. Go and read the complete chapter again!

Let me quote the main part!

44) Whle Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47) Can any man FORBID WATER, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48) And he COMMANDED them to be baptized in the *NAME* of the Lord.

Brian, and I hate to say this, but yes according to the Bible you are like Cornelius and would be lost if you don't make things right under the NT salvation plan of God.

Now, is that what you wanted me to say? Brian I didn't have anything to do with what God does with us. I can only go by what He says in His word. I love His Word, being baptized in His name and also having His Spirit. Some, on this board don't believe the same as I do, but I can't go back and give up all of the things that God has given to me.

Carol

Carol, That was better, not completely blunt, but much more direct. Thank you, I know that wasn't easy.

Yes, we see scripture differently and my "Hope" of salvation will always be in the blood of Jesus and not the water of baptism. I may decide to get baptized someday as a proclamation of my faith but I don't ever see baptism as establishing my faith. To say that I need baptism for salvation would mean my life the past 11 years has been a lie. The daily praying and bible reading, the worship leading, the AWANA leading, the witnessing, etc... were all done then without God's approval. 11 years of serving that to God was filthy rags. My life changed 11 years ago. The old passed away and I was made new. I show my faith by my works. (let me say that I have alot of flaws as well, as what I wrote sounded very prideful I always want to remain humble as boasting is sin.)

Carol, just so you know I am guessing you and Frank disagree on many issues so don't enjoy his comments too much as others he makes you won't like

Take care and thanks for the heartfelt post

In Christ,
Brian