Baptist Commentator

Lorelei:
If you had actually read all the references I posted you could make a rational conclusion. However, You have not done so. You have a Bible take each reference and study it. I asure you when I read the post of others I open my Bible and read it for myself.The failure to do otherwise displays a lack of dilligence that God expects us to have. Acts 17:11; II Tim. 2:15.

However, I will answer your question about the spirit. It will be up to you to search it out when provided the evidence. That will be in the next post.

Furthemore, I have read the same scriptures posted about faith many times. I believe all of them. Why should I not believe the ones that teach repentance, confession and baptism. Do you believe the ones that teach faith is esssential are inspired and the ones that teach repentance, confession, and baptism are not inspired? If , In fact, you do believe this, How do yo know this? What evidence do you have on which to base this conclusion?


Furthermore, I did post and quote those scriptures that proved baptism for, unto the remission of sins. I posted an exhaustive list of all the conversions and related scriptures to the subject. Did you search them for yourself to see if those things are so. Acts 17:11. Here is a more detailed list with quotes However, unless you actually read them for yourself you would not even know if those posted and quoted are in fact true. If ou donot wan tto take my word for it withrefernces, whyask for a literal quote? Could I not change or not post it as a quote correctly? You logic escapes me. It is amazing people will use a list as an excuse not to search and study for themselves!

Acts 2:38, Peter said, Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 22:16, And Now,why tarriest thou,arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins calling on the name of the Lord. I Pet. 3:21. The Like figure where unto even Baptism doth also now save us, not putting away the filth of the flesh but the answer to a clean conscience toward God by the ressurection of Jesus Christ. Gal. 3:26,27, For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus for as many of you as have been baptized INTO Christ have put on Christ for there is neither jew nor greek, neither bond nor free, neither male nor female: ye are all one In Christ; and if ye be Christ's THEN are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.Gal 3:26-29.
Col. 2:12. Buried with him in baptism wherein ye are also risen with him through faith in the operation of God who raised him from the dead.
Acts 8 39. And they went down into the water both Philip and the Eunoch and he baptized him. Rev 1:5. Unto Jesus Christ who is the faithful witness and the first begotten from the dead unot him who loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood.I Pet.1:17,18 Forasmuch as you know ye were not redeemed with corruptible things such as silver and gold from your vain conversation receieved by vain traditons of your fathers but by the precious blood of Jesus as a lamb without blemish or spot. Romans 6: 3-5. Know ye not that so many of you as were baptized into Christ were baptized into his death. Therefore, we are buried with him through baptism into his death, that as like Christ was raised up to by the glory of God the father even so we should also walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection. Mark 16:16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mat. 28:18-20. Jesus came and spake unto them saying all authority hath been given unot me in heaven and earth, Go ye therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and the name of the Son and the name of the Holy Spirit teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you and Lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the world. Acts 8:18 Gaius and his household believed and many of the Corinthians were baptized. Acts 8:13-14 Simon was baptized and men and women were baptized. Acts 19:1-6. Those who were baptized with John's baptism were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
The last two references are paraphrases. I hope you will search the things posted. So let every man be persuaded in his own mind. Have a good day.

 

This only reveals why we should know the whole of scripture for ourselves and not rely on man to try and teach us another gospel, or preach another Jesus, or give us another spirit. Many people, even in Paul's day put up with that easily enough. Paul said those people were "false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light."

Now how am I going to know if they are false or not? By comparing it to the Word of God to see if this is indeed the gospel that Paul preached.

If we come up with different interpretations it is because like the Corinthians we "put up with it easily enough" rather then caring enough to find the truth. If you choose to believe man rather then God, that is your error, God never taught us such nonsense.

~Lorelei

quotations were from the 2 book of Corinthians, chapter 11

 

Ron, Frank is just plain wrong and so your point is no point at all

There are Catholics in Florida that speak in tongues. Somehow they look at the same "authority" as other Catholics and come to the conclusion that speaking in tongues and interpreting tongues belongs in the Catholic Mass today. See MY point

Just keeping you honest Ron, Have a great Weekend

In Christ,
Brian

 

I had acutally done so, and to accuse me of doing otherwise is childish. Would it be too terribly difficult for you to post a question without attacking the opposition in a personal manner?

~Lorelei

 

Lorelei:
My response was a logical one based on your hemeneutics. it was not a personal attack. It was just a logical deduction based on your posts. It simply shows your irratioanl approach to scripture.
Paul baptized people. I Cor. 1:12-14. He also wrote Romans 6: 3-5 as to why. Paul understood Acts 2:38. See Acts 22:16.
You expect people to believe baptism does not save us when Peter said Baptism doth also now save us. I Pet. 3:21. This the same Peter and message he preached in Acts 2: 38-47. Paul calls it the gospel that saves. Romans 1:16. The same Peter that said we are redeemed by his blood. The same Lord that said we must be washed from our sins in his own blood. Rev.1:5.It all harmonizes.

When one receives the grace of God By faith In Christ Jesus he is baptized in water to contact the blood of Christ. Romans 6: 3-5. This is God's operation to save. Col. 2:12. This harmonizes with the writings of Peter and Paul and the Lord himself. Mat. 28:18-20. I have quoted all these verses.
I choose to believe all of what the writers say on this subject. I prefer the whole or all the counsel of God. Acts 20:27.
Christianity is a system of justification by faith. Romans 1:17. However, it is not by faith only James 2:24.

 

Frank, just to let you know that I still stand with you and the scriptures 100%.

I know that you would never back down. Who knows, there may be a 'lurker' out there seeing the truth for the first time. Keep up the good work!

MEE

 

Trying2Understand:

Let me make this clear. Men must study and search to know the truth. The Bible will not interpret itself unless you do. Again, one must study all the word ,not part of it. If you read those scriptures posted, you find I affirmed all things taught in the divine volime. I accept all of it. I refuse to interpret or make conclusions without all the evidence. I proved the danger of this in posting specific scriptures that teach repentance saves, and confession saves, and baptism saves, and belief saves. However,when one examines all the evidence he may harmonmize it when he accepts all the inspired writings on the subject. No one has adressed this arguement! No one has refuted the conversions posted. And, I quoted them word for word except two which were paraphrased. However, even these were cited.

Ron, I do believe the scriptures are all sufficient. II Tim. 3:16,17. If this is not true, then there is no objective measure for truth, and every man can do that which is right in his own eyes.

What is your standard?

 

Mee:
Thanks, I try to present the truth in a simplistic manner. You are very kind in your comfort. I am humbled by your sincere attitude about the word of God.
Frank

 

Ron:
First, I was not led in a miraculous since by the Holy Spirit. I used the words of the Spirit to make my conclusion. No, both of us cannot be right. How do we know what is right? Examine the totality of the evidence all of it.
If I attempt to build a bicycle from the instructions given ,I must use all of them to build the bicycle as designed by the designer. If I do not use or follow instruction number 13 out of the 15 total will the Bike be what the designer intended for it to be? On the other hand,if I follow all the directions as instructed will the Bike not be as the designer intended?
Just because dhk and I differ does not mean the instructions will not produce that which they were intended too. In fact,unless all are followed, they will not produce the bike or salvation as intended by God or the designer of the Bike.
Ron, I have already stated How?
1.You examine all the evidence.
2.You study the immediate context and the remote context.
3. You ask what is said?
4. Who is speaking to whom?
5. How is this applicable to me?
6. Does my Interpretation HARMONIZE with ALL the passages on this subject?
7, If my interpretation is not in harmony with the totality of the evidence, then ,my interpretaion is wrong. If my conclusion harmonizes with the evidence, then my interpretation is correct.
Ron, this is the same way one must learn the truth about any instructions. Try getting your taxes correct without all the instructions. Try building a home without all the details of the floor plan. In both cases,if you want the home and the taxes correct you must us all the instructions. If both items are to be as they are designed to be by the architect or the I. R.S. One must get all the facts and harmonize them. Failure to do so will result in jail time or the walls of your house crumbling. Jesus used this same illustration in Mat. 7: 21-27.
A short answer would be the following:
1. Truth is made known by DECLARATIVE STATEMENT.
2. APPROVED Example.
3. IMPLICATION from the totality of the evidence.
This is the only way language works!!
I hope this helps.

 

I do not believe that it is Lorelei that has an "irrational approach to Scripture."
Paul baptized some people at Corinth, but not many people. That was not his commission. His commission was to preach the gospel which did not include baptism.

1Cor.1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Cor.1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
--Now what does the Scripture teach here Frank? It is evident that baptism is not part of the gospel. Paul says clearly that Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel. The two are distinct one from the other. The gospel saves; baptism does not.

1Cor.1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
--What is it that saves? Not baptism! It is the preaching of the cross, the gospel message. Nowhere in the Bible does this include baptism.

"He also wrote Romans 6: 3-5 as to why"
Rom.6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

You said that Paul wrote these verses to explain why "he baptized??" The book of Romans is a dissertation on soteriology, in which he explains in great detail to the believers at Rome, the various aspects of salvation. This chapter explains how a believer, having accepted Christ, becomes dead to sin, and alive unto Christ. Baptism is but a picture of that. It pictures the death of our old life, and our rising again in newness of life in Christ. No where does Paul even hint that baptism is necessary for salvation in these verses. Baptism is but a picture.

"Paul understood Acts 2:38. See Acts 22:16."
I have explained thoroughly both of these verses to you already. Did you read what I posted? Paul understood these verses, most definitely--but apparently you do not. They do not teach that baptism is necessary for salvation or for the forgiveness of sins.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
"This does not mean in order that sins might be remitted, for everywhere in the New Testament sins are forgiven as a result of faith in Christ, not as result of baptism. It means be baptized because of the remission of sins. The Greek preposition "eis" or "for" has this meaning "because of" not only here but also in is such a passage as Mat.12:41 where the meaning can only be "they repented because of (not in order to be) the preaching of Jonah." Repentance brought the remission of sins for this Pentecostal crowd, and because of the remission of sins they were asked to be baptized." (Ryrie)

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
There are four items in a row on the same level. The NKJV follows closer in this case to the Greek, pairing the first two item, and the second two items. There is a finite verb modified by a participle in each half of the verse. A literal rendering of the verse would be: "Having arisen be baptized, and have your sins washed off (by) calling on the name of the Lord." This last clause is supported by general Biblical teaching (cf. Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21; Rom.10:13) --Believer's Bible Commentary, William MacDonald

"You expect people to believe baptism does not save us when Peter said Baptism doth also now save us. I Pet. 3:21."
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Take verse 21 in the context of the entire passage. Verse 20 says that only 8 souls were saved by water. The rest of the world was baptized by water. They were totally immersed in it, weren't they. Water was used as a destroying agent by the hand of God. The baptism that saved the eight was the baptism of the ark. They were safely immersed in the Ark, a picture of Christ. Unless you are in Christ, there is no safety. Verse 21 plainly says: "The like figure whereunto." Peter is using the historical event of the flood as an illustration, a symbolic event. There is symbolism here. Baptism (not water, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh). That would destroy the symbolism in verse 20. Water was used to destroy not to save.
"But the answer of a good conscience toward God." Baptism is but symbolic of our death to our old life, and being in Christ we have an answer of a good conscience toward God. We are able to do that because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, which also baptism symbolizes. Baptism is purely symbolic.

It is the gospel that saves: the "belief" in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1Cor.15:1- 4). It is the blood that washes us from our sin, not baptism. (Rev.1:5)
DHK

 

I said that I had read your quotes and you said that if I had actually read them I would have come up with what you consider a rational approach. You accused me of not reading them (basically called me a liar), not just coming to what you classify as an irrational approach.

I find it irrational to assume you know what the other party has or has not done, simply because they didn't come to same conclusion you have.

Yes, but that is not why he was sent, why was he sent? Not to baptize but to preach the gospel. Do you want to ignore that part of scripture because it doesn't fit your theology? How irrational.

An excellent example of taking scripture out of context. This was not an explanation as to why he baptized Crispus and Gaius. Please, keep the scriptures in context!

Paul is explaining to the Romans that because they are saved by grace and not the law, that doesn't mean they should continue in sin. He then talks about the Baptism that we are baptized with in Christ, that has nothing to do with water. It is the Spirit that saves us. Read these words of Jesus, remember these words were spoken after he and the apostles had been baptized by water.

Paul said it was the gospel that saves, but Paul did not say that baptism was the gospel! Here is the verse you used to insinuate that Paul said that baptism for remission of sins is the gospel.

No, I clearly showed you where Paul said that he did not come to baptize but to preach the gospel, and no where does Paul teach that baptism is part of the gospel that saves you.

So quit ignoring scripture and tell us why Paul made a distinction between the gospel and baptism.

Again, we see why you don't actually quote your verses, it would show that the scriptures do not say what you are insinuating.

We are washed by the blood of Christ, not by water in a ceremony performed by a mere man.

Romans 6 doesn't mention anything about contacting the blood, yet another verse taken out of context.

Look at Matt 28, you baptize those who are disciples, you don't make disciples by baptizing them.

No, you shoved some chapter and verse in a parenthesis and pretended it said what you wanted it to say.

Then why don't you believe the ones we quote? Why do you ignore them?

~Lorelei

 

Ron:
Yes, this may be happen, however, the last word and interpretation that matters and final authority is the I.R.S. So no matter what the CPA interprets, it must be in harmony with the IRS. In the case of salvation and spirtual matters it is the word of God that is the only authority. Again, Mat. 7: 21-27. Ron, let me ask you one question. Do you believe the words of Christ in John 8:32? If yes, then How do I know? If not, Why not?

 

DHK:
Why do I need you to explain them. The Bible is it's own best interpreter. I posted ALL THE EVIDENCE THAT PERTAINS TO THIS MATTER. I HAVE HARMONIZED EVERY SCRIPTURE.
You refuse to address the arguments set forth.
1. The totality and harmony of the evidence.
2. The examples of conversion in the Bible.
What you have done is try to" let me explain that to you." You never let the totality of the evidence speak.

If it is grace only and faith only over and over, provide the complete harmonious evidence for this. You have not cited one New Testament example where one has been saved by grace only and faith over and over only. NOT ONE!
James says we are justifed by our works,not by faith only! James 2:24. James 2:19 says the devils believe and tremble but just because they believe they do not cease to be devils. The rulers of the synagogue believed but would not confess because they feared the pharisees lest they should be put out of the temple for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. John 12:42,43. Jesus said unless a man confesses he cannot be saved. Mat. 10:32. It appears Jesus made a mistake as it is "grace only and faith only over and over."

I have provided examples that include ALL the esssentials for salvation. They were quoted and referenced with all the scritures related to the topic.

I used ALL the scriptures that pertain to salvation of the sinner.

You selected scriptures that faith is essential with total disregard for the rest of the divine instructions. I pointed this out by posting scriptures that mention repentance saves without any reference to faith. I did the same for confession and baptism. They are as follows:
Repentance: Luke 13:3,5 Acts 11:18, II Tim. 2:25, Acts 17:30.
Confession: Romans 10:10, I John 4:2,Mat. 10:32.
Baptism: I Pet. 3:21,Acts 22:16.

You response to this argument. You are as silent as an oyster.

Furthermore, The text of I Cor. 1 is a rebuke involving those who would follow or glorify men. Paul explains he was glad he did not baptize a large number of people because he did not want to be glorified by having done so. I Cor. 1:10-16.10Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. 12Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. Then you use these passages and I Cor 15: 1-4 to prove that baptism is not a part of the gospel. How and Where does it teach this? Is it by declaration? No. Is it by example? No. Is it by implication? NO. Paul provides the good news in I Cor. 15:1-4. In Romans 6: 3-5 he provides for us how to receive the blesings of salvation. Again, these texts harmonize. What things did Paul preach that they were to keep in their mind. He preached Gal. 3: 26-29. he had baptized corinthians because it was God's way and to his glory not man's . See I Cor. 1: 10-16.

In reference to I Pet. 3: 20,21, you just refuse to accept the plain teaching as to what is spoken. This is another one of your " Let me expalin it to you deals." The English explains it all. Baptism doth also now save us. Here is another case in point where you just ignore the rules of grammar. Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh is a parenthetical expression used to clarify meaning. Baptism is not a bath but the operation of God to save just as he did in the days of Noah. See Gen 6. Col. 2:12. Again, total harmony.

You try to influence people by quoting some man's opinion instead of letting the Bible speak by the totality of the harmonius evidence. At least you quoted someone other than Robertson this time.

In conclusion, The Bible teaches that the SUM OF THY WORDS ARE TRUTH. Psalms 119:160. Just give me the Bible. I do not need the Let me explain to you why it does not mean what the Lord by inspiration of the Holy Spirit had the writers write and say.
Let's just let the bible speak. Just make conclusions based on the totality of the New Testament of Jesus Christ.

 

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

 

Lorelei:
The contentions of your post are those made without EXAMINING AND HARMONIZING ALL THE EVIDENCE POSTED. You and DHK do this over and over.
1. The context of I Cor. 10-16 is a rebuke of those who would follow men, especially those who baptized them. The entire text has been posted. Paul did not say baptism is not a part of the gospel. In the context, and the current distress addressed in veres 10-16 he did not make his baptizing folks more important than his preaching the gospel. Again, context and harmony of all the evidence teaches otherwise.
2. Cripus and Gaius are examples of the result of preaching the gospel. See context I Cor. 1:10-16.
Romans 6:3-5 declares the how of the good news. This includes Crispus Gaius or anyone who wishes to be saved. SEE Gal. 3:26,27. Again, totality, context and harmony. By the way, there are two types of context, immediate and remote and context of topic. We are discussing salvation Pehaps, you should look up the meaning to these words. If I define them for you it would be of no profit. Furthermore,in Romans 6: 3- 5 Paul says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT GRACE OR LAW. He does mention grace in verse one. I agree grace includes baptism INTO Christ. At least, that is what the scriptures of this text teach. No where in this text is it declared, implied he is discussing law.
4. Mark 10 is a discussion of the baptism of suffering. The apostles were baptized with John's baptism as they were Jews. See Mark 1:4, Luke 7:29,30. These are totally different subjects. John's baptism was for the remission of sins. The baptism of suffering led to death for the apostles. They are not the same. In the context Christ is discussing his crucifixion. See Mk. 10:32-34.
5. The gospel is God's power to save.Romans 1:16. In Acts 2:38-47 three thousand were saved. Acts 2:41. Rational conclusion based on evidence: repentance and baptism for the remission of sins is a part of the gospel. Acts 2:38. This is the first gospel message proclaimed. It reaped a harvest of about three thousand souls. It was a result of hearing the word of God, the truth,the gospel proclaimed. See Acts 2:40,41, James 1:18, I Pet. 1:23. Rational conclusion based on evidence : the word of God,the truth, and the gospel are the same message. Rational conclusion: men who are saved must receive the gospel. Acts 2:41. Rational conclusion: men who receive the gospel must act upon the message. Acts 2:40. Rational Conclusion: Men who receive the gospel and act upon it to be saved must be baptized for unto the remission of sins . Acts 2:38.

Finally, I belive all the Bible. I believe all scriptures. The difference is you only accept part of the scriptures or you refuse to harmonize them with the totality of the evidence. I affirm faith is essential to salvation. Hebrews 11:6. I affirm grace is essential. Eph. 2:8. I affirm belief is essential. John 8: 24. I affirm repentance is essential. Luke 13:3. I affirm baptism is esesential. Mark. 16:16 I Peter 3: 21. I affirm the blood is essential. Hebrews 9: 22, I Pet. 1:17,18. I affirm them all because the Bible teaches they are all a part of the divine scheme of God to save. You do not affirm all of these. That is the difference.

 

Ron:
The church is the saved. The saved are people. How do they know the truth. HOW? Tell me please. To state fact does not tell us HOW? Acts 2:47, I Tim 3:15. When you get through playing dodge ball over authority, maybe you will answer.
I have already made my affirmation. Why not make yours and PROVE IT!