Aphikomen or Eucharist?

True enough - we should place no "Faith" in the man-made traditions of the dark ages.

And I agree that there is merit in looking at Hebrew tradition surrounding the Passover to understand more fully what the Hebrew practice would have been at the Passover at the time Christ was literally leading out in that service with His disciples.

But it is important to remember that the "substance" to that tradition is the extent to which Christ would have adopted and and promoted it.

Notice that in Mark 7:6-13 Christ points out that some of the man-made traditions of the first century Hebrews were actually contrary to the Word of God.

So I am very positive about looking for added detail and added information contained in Hebrew tradition surrounding each of the Lev 23 Holy days of God. But I understand that the Hebrews were not "infallible" any more than the RCC as it presided over the dark ages.

In Christ,

Bob

 

But does that assertion negate the fact that the afikomen, as our Lord practiced it and said to do it, was not a separate tradition but part of the Passover seder, which has since been neglected by many churches? Are these churches more correct because they are neglecting the rest of the seder and its surrounding teachings?

Rather, these churches have lost a huge part of what was intended to be in the lives of believers, because they have neglected the teaching of our Lord, who told us to do as He did. They hold such a fear of the things our God told us to do that they think themselves more righteous than those who do them. This is an unfortunate estate, especially when one considers Zachariah, who tells us that the time is coming when all will observe the four feasts, and if they will not, they will have no rain.

 

The church's communion service is not a Passover service. There was no basis for celebrating Passover every day or even weekly. In fact - it could easily be argued that Passover was too costly to practice on a daily basis.

Having said that - I would love to know exactly how Christ celebrated that last Passover and I would very much like to have a yearly Passover service that is modeled after the exact format He used 2000 years ago.

What I don't know from this topic is how can we know all the format of Christ's last supper with details that go beyond what we have in the text.

How do we know that the traditions handed down by the Jews 1000 years later were not altered.

Today's orthodox Rabbis teach that evolution is true no matter what the Bible says. They also have some other traditional teachings about Lucifer etc that we as Christians would not consider "Biblically accurate".

How do we find the correct ones? Did they preserve something of the practices 2000 years ago?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob --

Our Lord is the Author of the Passover. You can bet that He did it qas He had intended it to be done. However, traditions certainly have been added over time, even earliest time, and He practiced these yearly, along with His family and later with His friends (and family?).

No, the Bible does not set down every little thing, regarding what to do throughout the Passover since that very first one. Songs have been added. Questions and answers have been added. A particular hallacha regarding Scripture readings and how it is to be observed has been added and sent throughout the generations.

However, Passover certainly is to be done once a year, NEVER daily! I don't know what I said to indicate a daily Passover, but that certainly would not be the thing to do!

The cup-and-matzah these Scriptures focus on is one of the four cups-and-matzahs eaten during the seder.

 

Agreed once a year. However we see in Acts 2 that they were breaking bread together "daily" in their home meetings. This might have been the new abreviated "Communion service" they were celebrating "daily" -- while still also celebrating Passover yearly.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Well, I know what the churches teach about "breaking bread" in the Bible but that idea just does not fit with the way Jews observed the commands then or at any other time. Also, there are other places in the Bible in which breaking bread simply meant eating. The admonition to think of our Lord "as often as you do this" is misread to cause some to think it must be done often. I think that a desire to follow new traditions started in the second century and a desire to please the Lord has caused people to make more of these passages than was intended by the Lord.

In religious Jewish culture then and now, getting together to eat is considered by most to be almost a holy convocation. First, one does not normally sit down to such a meal with unbelievers. Second, to sit and eat while not discussing the Scriptures and halachah (the believers' life) is unthinkable. Third, it is always joyous and filled with conversation, laughter, debate, etc.

The calendar is ultra-important to religious Jews. While some disagree regarding what a proper calendar is, when each one's mind is settled as to which calendar is right, they stick to it, not deviating, and many would fall on their swords for that calendar, which they believe is our God's.

Furthermore, in religious Jewish culture, while the people had no problem adding to tradition when it would obviously not transgress any command of our God, they would never break a part of tradition off from its commanded time in order to observe it separately. Thus, some seven-day Feasts are observed for eight at times and one-day ones for two (mainly in order to be sure our God's assigned days are covered). Another concept is the additions of songs, Scriptures, readings that had not be specifically commanded have been added, in order to clarify to the observers the importance of the Feast.

The seder was one observance once a year. Some religious Jews, later on, would invite friends over for a second seder the next night, but it was mainly a friendly gesture and to use up the food from the actual seder. They did not do an actual second seder that night.

 

As followers of Christ who are made right with God by placing our faith in his atonement, we are free from the law and the traditions of the law once and for all. The law is BONDAGE. Freedom is found in faith in Christ and the indwelling of the very Spirit of God in the believer.

 

I heard this song once:
"Free from the Law,
O blessed condition;
I can sin as I want
And still have remission."

However, John wrote, (KJV) "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the Law: for sin is the transgression of the Law, and we know that He was manifested to take away our sins". James was also concerned about the Law and about transgression of the Law, but mainly, our Lord was concerned about the Law.

He said, in Matthew 5:17 - 19 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whosoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

And the Mosaic Law is now complete. Christ didn't abolish the Law, but fulfilled completely its imperfect ability to satisfy God and sanctify humanity. He completed it in himself by submitting to its types with exact obedience, and verifying them by his death on the cross. He completes the Law and the sayings of his prophets in his members by giving them grace to love God with all their heart, soul, mind and strength; and to love their neighbor as themselves, "for this is all the Law and the prophets." Furthermore, Christ and his disciples didn't dismiss any part of the Law, but had the authority to teach it, which they did in a very marked manner in the gospels and the epistles.

CH

 

I do not care to get into the debate.
But what I marvel at, and what touches me very deeply, is that Jews today take that middle matzoh (not the first and not the third, but the second of the "trinity"), break it, "bury it", "resurrect it", and share it as the aphikomen (I came - in Greek, not Hebrew). And yet they do not understand - the Lamb that is remembered has come!

It makes my heart heavy for the children of Israel every time I think of it.

 

I don't really see any debate happening. Interestingly enough, I have read some antimissionary material that stated there was no real tradition of having 3 matzoh(s?), and that was instituted by Jewish believers, but my Sunday School teacher is Jewish and performs this ceremony each year and contends that it is incorrect.

 

Yes, the thought is that it was instituted by Jewish believers, but found its way into the mainstream quite some time ago, so that it is now practiced in this ironic state, with "other" interpretations.
See works by Moishe Rosen of Jews for Jesus.

 

Chargrove --

The so-called "Mosaic Law," which our God calls "my Law" (Ex 16:4; 2 Chr 6:16; Ps 89:30; Isa 51:7; Jer 6:19; and more), and of which our Lord Y'shua is the author, was completed when the five books of the Torah were completed! The Torah is instruction to believers: are we, by your statements, to ignore instruction? What of the New Covenant, which was promised. It is the Torah written on the heart. If it is written on the heart, should we not follow its instruction?

A good idea would be to find out where your idea that "complete" meant "finished, abolished, ended" and to reread the Scriptures to find out what they really mean. For example, when the Scriptures say that our Lord is the "end" of the Law, find out what "end" means here. This does not mean that He fulfilled it, so we don't have to," as is taught by some; rather it means that our Lord is the focus, the focal point, the whole reason for the Torah.

No matter what are the arguments against it, the Scriptures are true and stand forever. Those Scriptures will always tell us that sin is lawlessness.

And your Sunday school teacher is right that it has always been 3 matzoh. I wonder how these explain away the stripes and the holes in the matzoh? And what about the ancient tradition that many still have that the wine is to be mingled with warm water? And what do they say about the Marriage Cup in the seder -- the one our Lord said He would not drink until He drinks it with us in His Father's kingdom? Wow, and the list could go on!

 

But Debby! Debate is a good thing! By debate, iron sharpens iron among friends.

But believe me, Debby, Jews are turning to the Lord at an amazing number. In my little city and its surronding area, there are so many believing synagogues that it is shocking -- enough that I got to "shop around" before finding mine.

Most synagogues or shuls are small, and many have lost their way, because one thing some forget is to keep their eyes on our Y'shua and not go off on any tangents or not get so hung up on human-made law that we forget the Torah of our God. However, our Lord is calling them out, and many are hearing -- and "hearing," in the Hebrew mind, is doing.

 

correct in many ways.

Lev 19:18 Love your neighbor as yourself

and

Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"

Were the "RULE" the "LAW" of the precross - OT Jews, the LAW for Israel, The LAW known pre-cross (as we see in Matt 22), the LAW that Christ perfectly fulfilled.

The OT giants of faith listed in Heb 11 - fulfilled that Law by faith as they were born again, filled with the Holy Spirit and lived by Faith in the Son of God - the Spirit of Christ living IN them so that though they were born as fallen children of Adam - fully and totally depraved - YET they were born-again and walking by faith - they walked in obedience to the Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 commands.

In Christ,

Bob

 

There are two things in debate.

#1. Should we celebrate a yearly Passover and if so - how much Jewish tradition should it include? How much of the Jewish tradition today was actually practiced by Christ in the first century?

#2. What is the 1Cor 11, Acts 2 -- "Lord's Supper"?

It appears that this is not a yearly Passover service.

But we know for certain that the first Lord's Supper that Christ and the disciples celebrated the night of His arrest WAS a Passover service.

In Christ,

Bob

 

In what way does the above Scripture indicate that it was not a yearly Passover? Is tradition interpretting for you, Bob? And I do not say this in criticism of you, Bob, because I know the struggle between Truth and tradition too deeply.

 

The text says "when you meet together" the Lord's Supper is celebrated. Notice that the term Passover is not used and notice that the church "likely" met together more often than once a year.

I think it is very hard to insert "when you meet yearly" or "when you meet once a year" into the text.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Abiyah, I have a question for you. I wondered if you know any 'messianic jews' who reject the apostleship and teaching of Paul?