Saved souls

Briguy · Jan 29, 2002

Please read carefully the following verses from Acts. Try to comment on the verses alone, not based on what you have been taught. What would you think if you picked up a page in the jungle and this was all you could read. Would you say that salvation can be lost? What does "saved" mean if you can become unsaved? No reason to write down "souls" being added if the "souls" could very well depart, as many of you believe. Also, who was Baptized here? Those who gladly recieved his word, making the Baptism responsive. At the end we see the number of the church growing daily, If it ain't a sure thing how can God say it was growing. Maybe the 10 saved on Tuesday get nulified by the 10 who get themselves unsaved on Friday. Doesn't make sense does it?
Finally, verse 2:40 says "save yourself" ------wait that goes against everything I have been taught! not if you believe that God provides the gift of salvation and we have to recieve it. If anyone cares to deal with these verses I ask that just for fun you deal with them alone, like you have no other scripture. (I know I know, I have said bunches of times scripture needs to be read as a whole, but humor me here - please)

In Christ,
Brian

KJV from Acts "2:40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
2:41: Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
2:42: And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
2:43: And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
2:44: And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
2:45: And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
2:46: And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
2:47: Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: The Briguy ]

Eladar · Jan 29, 2002

2:47: Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."

I don't see where the scripture says that everyone who was added to the church were saved. It only says that the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved, not that everyone that joined the churched was declared saved.

Chemnitz · Jan 29, 2002

I have yet to see a convincing argument for the position of once saved always saved.

Briguy · Jan 29, 2002

Goldmetal, You probably watched the Steelers game on Sunday and afterward said there is no evidence that the Pats. won.

The scripture says that "that day" 3,000 souls were added. Not the day those three thousand souls die a physical death but the day they were saved. You see that eternal life in Christ starts while still on earth because as Christians we don't really die do we!

In Christ,
Brian

btw, thanks for both of your in depth anaylsis - just teasing ya

trying2understand · Jan 29, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
2:47: Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily i]

I don't see where the scripture says that everyone who was added to the church were saved. It only says that the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved, not that everyone that joined the churched was declared saved.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't see in those verses where it says that anyone was saved - period.

Perhaps the discussion needs to go back a step and show where one is "saved", with or without assurance, before God passes judgement.

BTW "such as should be saved." sounds future tense to me.

Ron

Chemnitz · Jan 29, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>BTW "such as should be saved." sounds future tense to me.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same here.

BTW, I didn't watch the playoffs. Not a big fan of anybody playing, I do like the Rams, but they aren't my favorite team.

trying2understand · Jan 29, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by The Briguy:

The scripture says that "that day" 3,000 souls were added. Not the day those three thousand souls die a physical death but the day they were saved. You see that eternal life in Christ starts while still on earth because as Christians we don't really die do we!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Scripture also says "were added" not got saved.

It may be your interpretation that they are the same thing, but you may be right or you may be wrong on that.

Perhaps those souls "were added" to the Church.

Question: can you tell if someone is or is not saved on the day they are Baptized? If not, why do you assume that all those that were Baptized in Acts were saved?

Ron

Briguy · Jan 29, 2002

T2U says,

"Perhaps those souls "were added" to the Church.

T2U, what is the church? It is the body of Jesus, the hands and arms and feet and He is the head. You will never convince me that Jesus would dis-member himself, i.e. cut off one of his hands or toes, etc... which is what losing your salvation would do. So when you said "added" could be "saved" or "the Church" I say they are the same thing.

In Christ,
Brian

Eladar · Jan 29, 2002

Being a member of a church equals being one of the elect?

I'm afraid this view is not biblical. You are choosing to define the 'church' in a way that is wrong.

Lorelei · Jan 29, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
[QB]Being a member of a church equals being one of the elect?
[QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tuor, being a member of a church is not equal to being one of the elect, but being a member of the church is.

Brian is referring to the body of Christ. Not a building or denomination. Those who are saved become part of the body of Christ, the church.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church

24 Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

~Lorelei

Lorelei · Jan 29, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by trying2understand:

BTW "such as should be saved." sounds future tense to me.

Ron<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's look at this verse in other translations:

NKJV
"47praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church[1] daily those who were being saved."

NIV
"Acts 2:47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved."

RSV
"47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved."

NASB
"47
praising God and <*66> having favor with all the people. And the Lord <*67> was adding [49] to their number day by day <*68> those who were being saved."

NLT
"47all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their group those who were being saved."

~Lorelei

Pauline · Jan 29, 2002

Reading that passage would tell me that the way to be saved from this untoward generation would be by being baptized. And that would be how I would be added to the Church. That would then enable me to continue steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers with all the other members of the Church. All due to baptism.

But I do not see any proof of eternal security in this passage. I do see that baptism is the beginning of salvation, how we enter into it and into the sanctifying life of the Church.

Pauline

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Pauline ]

Eladar · Jan 29, 2002

Pauline,

Why couldn't an unbaptized person take communion and follow what the Apostles teach?

***Other than being baptized of course***

That could only be enforced by man, not because of baptism.

Lorelei,

I agree with you, but then we go must go back to the question of defining who exactly is in and who exactly apart from the church of God.

Since nobody knows this vital piece of information, it really is a irrelevent statement when it comes to our foreknowledge of salvation.

Briguy · Jan 29, 2002

L. Thanks for the imput. You have defended my positions before and I like that and thank you. Great minds think a like I guess.

Tuor, poor Tuor, I wish I could say something that would free you from the bonds of not knowing for sure you will be Jesus some day but alas I can not. As much of a mess as I feel sometimes it is the knowledge that I know I will see my Savior face to face that keeps me going!

In Christ,
Brian

Chemnitz · Jan 29, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>NKJV
"47praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church[1] daily those who were being saved."

NIV
"Acts 2:47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved."

RSV
"47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved."

NASB
"47
praising God and <*66> having favor with all the people. And the Lord <*67> was adding [49] to their number day by day <*68> those who were being saved."

NLT
"47all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their group those who were being saved."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All those versions have one common denominator focus on a continuing action that has not been completed. In other words, they weren't saved yet or in these words; they still could reject salvation.

Pauline · Jan 29, 2002

Tuor,
The unbaptized person could take communion. But he would not receive the graces from it.

God's sanctifying grace is implanted in the soul at baptism. That life in the soul continues to be nourished by the grace of the eucharist.

The unbaptized person has the grace of helps, to help him make his journey to baptism and the Church. But he is not a partaker of the divine nature, not a new creature in Christ Jesus.

And a person in gross sin can actually have the sacraments work against him because he uses them with a wrong intention.

Pauline

Lorelei · Jan 29, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Pauline:
Reading that passage would tell me that the way to be saved from this untoward generation would be by being baptized[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Pauline ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

41: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized"

Gladly receiving the Word comes before baptism.
Then....those who gladly received his word were baptized.

It does not read to me that baptism saved them.

Godmetal,

I see what you are saying, but I don't see it that way. Let's ask all of the people who are reading this thread. See, I am telling you they are reading it when by the time you actually see it you will have read (past tense) it yourself. Those who were being saved were added to the church after they were saved.

Tuor,

Romans 8:16 "The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children."

1 John 5:13
"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Sorry Brian, I know you asked us to not use other scriptures, but I don't think Tuor is denying that salvation is eternal, rather he thinks that we can not know if we have received that eternal gift.

~Lorelei

Briguy · Jan 30, 2002

L, you had to do what you had to do, no problem at all. Thanks for the wisdom in your post!

GM said: "All those versions have one common denominator focus on a continuing action that has not been completed. In other words, they weren't saved yet or in these words; they still could reject salvation."

GM, L. answered this but I ask you another question from what you said. What good would being "saved" be if it wasn't permanent. Example: You fall off a cliff and on your way down your pants catch a branch and you don't fall to your death. The branch saved you------- but wait the branch can't hold your weight and snaps and you do fall to your death. Now, the branch really didn't "save" you did it. Had you really been "saved" the branch would have held until help arrived. (btw, God is strong enough to hold your weight (mistakes) once HE saves you!!)

In Christ forever,
Brian

Sir Ed · Jan 30, 2002

Again, nothing in the passage talks about being past, present, or future saved. There is alot of language that folks equate with Salvation (ie: gladly receiving His word, baptism, and belief), but nothing that just taking that verse would spell it out for you.

The only thing it mentions in regard to Salvation is the possibility ("should").

Peace be with you.

Eladar · Jan 30, 2002

Lorelei,

What is meant by what we know is an implication. It might mean that we may know from that point on, but it might also mean we might know by judging our fruits what road we are on.

If one paticualar interpretation is believed to be the Gospel truth, then it needs to be in harmony with the rest of scripture.

Might I suggest contrasting your interpretation of 1 John 5:13 and Romans 8:16 with Luke 8:5-15 and 1 Corinthians 15:1-2.

[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Tuor ]

[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Tuor ]

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