Saved souls

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trying2understand:

&gt;&gt;It is the only "work" that God accepts.&lt;&lt;
You might check that against Matthew 25.
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25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
verses 1 to 13 speak of the kingdom of heaven, a time yet to come.

14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
verses 14 to 30 is talking primarily of the kingdom of Heaven, a time yet to come.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
verses 31 to the end of the chapter talk of the judgement of the nations which will take place after the Coming of Christ, during the Kingdom of Heaven, when Christ rules for a thousand years.
I have looked at every verse in Matthew 25, and none of them refer to works for salvation.
DHK

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:


25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
verses 1 to 13 speak of the kingdom of heaven, a time yet to come.

14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
verses 14 to 30 is talking primarily of the kingdom of Heaven, a time yet to come.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
verses 31 to the end of the chapter talk of the judgement of the nations which will take place after the Coming of Christ, during the Kingdom of Heaven, when Christ rules for a thousand years.
I have looked at every verse in Matthew 25, and none of them refer to works for salvation.
DHK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Matthew 25
35
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

DHK, you might want to look again.

Edit starts here.

"verses 31 to the end of the chapter talk of the judgement of the nations which will take place after the Coming of Christ, during the Kingdom of Heaven, when Christ rules for a thousand years."

Ok DHK, I get what you are trying to say but this is merely your interpretation.

I have a feeling that you are picking and choosing words from Scripture to fit your preconceived ideas. Not judging you, but only reporting what I see.

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trying2understand:

"verses 31 to the end of the chapter talk of the judgement of the nations which will take place after the Coming of Christ, during the Kingdom of Heaven, when Christ rules for a thousand years."
Ok DHK, I get what you are trying to say but this is merely your interpretation.
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What is there to interpret? In the previous verse Jesus said he was coming again in his glory. Before that he speaks of His Kingdom. No one has seen Jesus come again yet with his holy angels to set up his kingdom. Have you? The everlasting punishment here correlates with Rev.20:15-20. This is speaking of totally different time period in history. We are not dealing with that time period in history, just as we are not in the Old Testament times now. We are dealing with the time before Jesus comes again. "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." (2Cor.6:2) In this time, after the death of Christ, and before the coming of Christ, God is calling a people out for Himself. He is doing that by faith in his Name. "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved." (Rom.10:13) This has nothing to do with works. Not in this dispensation. The only requirement for salvation is faith, faith in the shed blood of Christ, his sacrifice on the cross that took the place for your sins.
DHK

 

DHK.
Where does scripture say Mt 25 is not for this dispensation?
Pauline

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:


What is there to interpret?
DHK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DHK, you don't believe that the interpretations that you choose to accept are the only possible interpetations, do you?

Ron

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pauline:

Where does scripture say Mt 25 is not for this dispensation?
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Mat.25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

This sounds pretty straight forward to me. Have you seen the son of man come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, and have you seen Him sitting on His throne of glory, here on earth? Has anyone? It must then then be a future event.
DHK

 

DHK,

So what happens at this future event? The sheep and the goats are separated by their deeds. By their good works, the sheep get to go with the Lord. Conversly, by their lack of good works, the goats get sent away from the Lord.

You will notice that both the sheep and the goats in this parable talk to the Lord as if they know Him. "Lord, when did..." So it must be understood that they all believe in Him.

Sure seems to me that believers can be accepted or rejected by the Lord by the works which they do.

Am I gonna take flack over this or what!?!?

Aloha and God Bless

 

Glen Seeker,
You won't get any flack from me over that post.

DHK,
So you don't think we'll be judged when Christ returns? You think that only applies to those who are living then? How do you know He won't return tonight? If He did, would we then be in that dispensation.

I think trying to divide the Christian era up into dispensations lacks scriptural credibility.

Pauline

[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: Pauline ]

 

“So what happens at this future event? The sheep and the goats are separated by their deeds. By their good works, the sheep get to go with the Lord. Conversly, by their lack of good works, the goats get sent away from the Lord.”
“You will notice that both the sheep and the goats in this parable talk to the Lord as if they know Him. "Lord, when did..." So it must be understood that they all believe in Him.”

Revelation :19:11-14
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The sheep and the goats in Mat.25:32 are clearly identified as “nations” “And before him shall be gathered all nations.” These are not individuals, per se, they are nations; nations that have either been friendly toward the Jews “my brethren,” or unfriendly to the Jews. It is a judgment of the nations, not individual Christians.
This judgment will take place after the Great Tribulation, a period of time lasting for seven years. The rapture will take place before then, the catching away of all believers described in 1Thes.4:16,17. Because I have trusted Christ as my Saviour I will not be here during this time of Great Tribulation when God’s wrath is poured out upon the world (Rev. 6 to 19). When Jesus comes in his glory, as he says he will in Mat.25, and in Rev.19, I, along with other believers in Christ will come with Him. We will be part of “the armies which are in heaven.” I will not be a part of those nations that are then being judged. My sins, regarding my salvation have already been judged. They have been put under the blood to be remembered no more—totally forgiven. By the time I will come back with Christ, my works, as far as my walk with Christ is concerned will have been judged, but this has nothing to do with salvation, and nothing to do with the judgement mentioned in Matthew 25.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance
God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
DHK

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:

This judgment will take place after the Great Tribulation, a period of time lasting for seven years. The rapture will take place before then, the catching away of all believers described in 1Thes.4:16,17. Because I have trusted Christ as my Saviour I will not be here during this time of Great Tribulation when God’s wrath is poured out upon the world (Rev. 6 to 19). When Jesus comes in his glory, as he says he will in Mat.25, and in Rev.19, I, along with other believers in Christ will come with Him. We will be part of “the armies which are in heaven.” I will not be a part of those nations that are then being judged. My sins, regarding my salvation have already been judged. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I have said, DHK, that is your interpretation not mine, ours, or everybodies. In fact, that is not even every Baptist's interpretation.

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=000562

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trying2understand:

As I have said, DHK, that is your interpretation not mine, ours, or everybodies. In fact, that is not even every Baptist's interpretation.
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I never claimed it to be every Baptist's interpretation. You ask me what the Bible says and I will tell you. One thing that all the Baptists do agree on, however, is that one is saved by faith alone, without works. That is where this discussion began. Baptism, a work, cannot save (Jer. 2:22).
DHK

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:


I never claimed it to be every Baptist's interpretation. You ask me what the Bible says and I will tell you. One thing that all the Baptists do agree on, however, is that one is saved by faith alone, without works. That is where this discussion began. Baptism, a work, cannot save (Jer. 2:22).
DHK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"I never claimed it to be every Baptist's interpretation."

No, DHK, you did not. But you did say, "What is there to interpret? In the previous verse Jesus said he was coming again in his glory. Before that he speaks of His Kingdom. No one has seen Jesus come again yet with his holy angels to set up his kingdom. Have you? The everlasting punishment here correlates with Rev.20:15-20."

I'm glad that you recognize that it is merely your interpetation and not an absolute given.

This takes us back to Matthew 25. If your "Left Behind" end times scenario is not a correct interpretation, you may have a problem with your understanding of the value of "works" as they relate to judgement.

 

In Matt.25, when it says that he will gather all nations doesn't it mean that he will gather people from all nations?

If it means the nations themselves, from what period in time? Take, for instance, the US. Will we be judged for what we did to the native Americans or African slaves or will we bejudged as a nation for the good we have done? Perhaps we will be judged for not stopping the killing of millions of innocent babies in their mothers' womb.

It seems to me that the text here is referring to the people of all nations rather than the nations themselves.

Aloha and God Bless

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Briguy:

Keep searching and questioning Ron, I know I will!!!

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Ditto.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glen Seeker:
If it means the nations themselves, from what period in time? Take, for instance, the US. Will we be judged for what we did to the native Americans or African slaves or will we bejudged as a nation for the good we have done? Perhaps we will be judged for not stopping the killing of millions of innocent babies in their mothers' womb.
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Mat.25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these MY BRETHREN, ye have done it unto me.

It seems apparent that: first, the event is after the coming of the Lord, and second, the nations the nations are gathered to be judged for their “works,” or their relation to Israel. “My brethren” is the Jewish nation. We have no reason to believe otherwise. Why bring in other red herrings such as crimes done to African slaves? The total picture centers around the coming of Christ and the Jewish nation. The nations will be judged in accordance of how the treated the Jews (“my brethren&#8221 .
DHK

 

DHK.
Scripture has certainly defined "brethren" differently than you do.
Pauline

 

So, only those nations which existed after WWII will be judged? Since there was no nation of Israel at the time, then Nazi Germany wont be judged?

Perhaps this means that the judgment will only pertain to the situation of the world on the day of the Lord's return. Who knows, one day before that, a nation which fought Israel may make peace with it.

The Soviet Union is gone. It was no friend of Israel.

The judgement of nations as you say it, makes no sense at all. After all, what is a nation but its people? The government of the nations direct their policies. Many of the governments which are anti-Israel, also oppress their own people. how can those nations be judged?

Could brethren of the Lord be Christians? Could the judgement be directed against those who persecute Christians?

Hmmmm! Things to ponder.

 

“So, only those nations which existed after WWII will be judged? Since there was no nation of Israel at the time, then Nazi Germany wont be judged?” (Glen)
---No, only those nations which exist after the Tribulation Period has ended will be judged. We are in no position yet to say exactly who those nations will be.

Mat.24:21-27
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Verse 21 points to a “Great Tribulation.” Verse 27 points to the coming of Christ. Both of these are talked of in more detail in the rest of Matthew 24 and in the Book of Revelation. It is still a future event. Except those days should be shortened there should no flesh be saved (physically)

”The Soviet Union is gone. It was no friend of Israel.”
That may be somewhat true. But Russia and its allies are still here, and are mentioned in the Book of Ezekiel as those that will come down upon Israel. Each nation will be judged in accordance to its relation to Israel at that future time in history.
DHK

 

Are you telling me that all the people of those nations will be judged as a single unit? China is no friend of Israel and, (according to "THE LATE GREAT PLANET EARTH") is one of the nations which is going to try to invade or conquer Israel. Will the nation be damned? It persecutes thousands of its own citizens for trying to spread the Christian faith. Being part of the nation, will those Christians also suffer the same judgement as the rest of the nation?

Again I must say that nations are comprised of people. Without them, nations are nothing but empty land. I cannot envision a just God who will judge all the people of a nation because of the decisions of a few in power.

A god like that might be a god of wrath. He certainly isn't the God of mercy that I worship.

Aloha and God Bless