Calvinism in a White Ford Van

They spoke of both. Read your Bible. </font>[/QUOTE]I'll give you that, I should have stated that. The prophets were sent to the jews, however. This text was for the jews. Read the parable of the owner of the vineyard.

BTW...don't belittle me, or talk down to me with "read your Bible". Some of you calvinist's act like your knowledge supercedes everyone elses, which is the problem with calvinism in general...based on human knowledge.

 

Typo in my own post. It does NOT invalidate election. Election still stands. </font>[/QUOTE]Jews "in Christ" and Gentiles "in Christ" are God's elect. Unconditional election is false.

 

This is true, because it is specifically talking about election with respect to salvation -- NOT the other ways the Jews were elected (to be the bloodline of the Messiah, to preserve the written law, etc.).

I guess I'm just irritated by the lame attempt at derailing the point by making outrageous claims like this based on so little knowledge of what the Bible (OT and NT) actually says. </font>[/QUOTE]Brother, all we can do is faithfully proclaim the word of God and allow it to effect it's changing work. It takes time. I was an Arminian for 20 years! I believe us Calvinists become too impatient. We believe in God's sovereignty, right? Let's allow Him to work out His plan. </font>[/QUOTE]--I was an Arminian for 20 years!--

So did God predestine you to be arminian for 20 years...and then suddenly predestined you to be a calvinist by revealing this "hidden truth" that the majority of believers agree is false doctrine? Your testimony is more an argument for free will in motion.

When I found out that a good friend is a calvinist (after a year of praying together for peoples' salvation and acting like man has free will), I really wanted to believe calvinism was true, and I was so special to God that He unconditionally chose me. I prayed and asked God to reveal calvinism for what it is....truth or lies, but I was hoping it were true. Nothing I read from Macarthur, Spurgeon, Piper sat right with me when comparing the "proof text" to the Bible as a whole and the numerous verses proclaiming man to "choose". If calvinism is true, why has God not answered my prayer and revealed this "mystery" and "hidden truth" to me? Are calvinists' more special in God's eye than me? I doubt it. The conclusion, then, has to be that God has given me a choice (as with all men) and I am free to choose what I believe, as are calvinists'. Either that, or God is deliberately blinding me to the truth. Why would He do that, since I am "elect"? He wouldn't, and doesn't. The "god of this age" blinds men, not God. Otherwise God predestines even believers to believe false doctrine (considering the numerous theological positions), which goes against His very nature since God's sovereignty and grace are never "false doctrine."

[ April 12, 2006, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: webdog ]

 

&lt;nod&gt; We both agreed on that as well, should have stated it in my OP.

JW

 

Good job as dispelling those false assertions that people make about Calvinists. There certainly are false assertions and misconceptions about Calvinism. What I have found is that most of these misconceptions are based on hearsay. It is the bandwagon approach. It is easy to go with the crowd and attack Calvinism. Calvinism appeals to the quest for truth. Arminiansim appeals to human logic and the perception of fair-play and equity. It is based on human reasoning and not biblical reasoning. Now that sounds like a prideful statement, doesn't it? "It is based on human reasoning and not biblical reasoning." I suppose some would take this comment and label it as imflamatory. But just look at the facts. Allow me to parallel the Arminian belief that man is not completely fallen (total depravity)with scripture.

Arminianism vs. Scripture

ARMINIANISM: Man is not completely fallen. He is able to understand the gospel and can accept or reject it by free will.
SCRIPTURE:

Genesis 6:5 5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

</font>[/QUOTE]This passage, of course, is talking about the wickedness of almost all mankind right before the flood. God chose to save Noah's family who He counted as righteous. It is NOT a general statement about man. Otherwise none of us would be here today. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, I agree that it was a general statement about mankind pre-flood. But it is necessary to note that no one else except Noah and his immediate family were saved. It is therefore not a leap of faith to conclude (from the text) that Noah (and possibly members of his family) was the only righteous man (by faith) on the earth. If that is accurate than the general statement becomes more specific. Of course, as always...imho. </font>[/QUOTE]Your premise was that all men are completely depraved (fallen). The way to refute that statement is to identify one or more men who were not. That's what I did. </font>[/QUOTE]I believe it flew righ over their heads. I would say that passage supports depravity but denies total inability. I see both sides twisting and trying to make scripture fit their theology but the pride is what kills me. Keep on Straight. I follow ya.

 

Bill I was refering to the pt that it was right before the flood. These people had rejected and harden their hearts for a long time. What I am trying to say is that they came too that state. They were not that from the beginning and it has not reached that state yet. If men were born with thougths that are continuely evil then why did God wait so long to destroy the earth with a flood? I am haveing a hard time forging my question. So if you don't understand what I am driving at then give me another shot.

 

Sorry it took so long for me to respond. I just found this. Wife and I took a trip up north to Traverse City. What a beautiful place. Stayed on the beach which was 74 on sat. but very cool after that.
Anyways I agree that we do tend to paint with an extremist veiw. And I usually remark to those who do that quite often on here. However it seems that when we get to the heart of the matter things are closer then they appear. I mean rather you believe God choose from looking through time at man's reaction to His word or if you believe God picked because of foreknowledge it is very close. I mean those that God picked will be saved. Time will not change what has been laid out and what God has declared will happen.
There is a hard factor in calvinism that does make man a puppet and God a person who does indeed delite in sending people to hell. It is said it is His plan, His desire to show forth His glory. Which seems kind of warped. But let me add in my heart and others on both sides here know that God can do whatever He wants with man. We look for things in God character to say it ain't so and with good cause. Arguements are good on both sides. I know calvinist seem to think they have a lock on the truth but in reality there are many reaches in both.

 

But the hard factor of free-willism is that is makes God helpless. I have heard preachers say that God sent His Son to die and then stepped back hoping that someone would take Him up on His offer. He made Himself vunerable like a Jr. High boy at the dance standing against the wall hoping a girl will ask him out.

The problem we have with this is that God is NEVER pictured as dependant on man in the Scripture. He is NEVER said to be at the whim of man in the Scripture. He is ALWAYS described as the sovereign God who wrote the end from the beginning, determines when a sparrow falls, determines the outcome of the cast lot, turns a king's heart like He turns a river, shuts the mouths of lions, and does whatever He pleases.

Put simply, the description of God offered by free-willers is offensive to me.

 

How so? If I allow my son a choice to either play basketball or play football, how am I rendered "helpless" based on his decision?

 

If you planned in eternity past to kill your son in order to give the game of basketball to someone who was your sworn enemy and only liked football, then when your son reached his prime, killed him and then could do nothing to make sure that your enemy actually got the game of basketball except wait and hope, then you are helpless and a fool. This is not how the Bible describes God.

 

How so? If I allow my son a choice to either play basketball or play football, how am I rendered "helpless" based on his decision? </font>[/QUOTE]Bad analogy. According to the free willer, God desires all men without exception to be saved. So what does He do? He knocks on a door and stands there hoping someone will answer. Beyond that, God is helpless in the outcome, because after knocking, it's all up to the person whether or not to answer.

So (according to the free willer) it's God will that everyone without exception be saved. But the most God is willing to do for His part is knock. If that isn't the definition of an incompetent or underachiever, I don't know what is.

 

npet, your play with words and mock people but what you speak is really out of ignorance or spite. You see YOU have painted God in this light above and it is so far removed from what other non-calvinist believe I doubt you even know what anyone else believes.
God did a lot more then stand at the door and knock. He sent His son, He gave us His inspired word, sent the HS to convict and guide, and shows His glory and splendor in nature. He has given man a concious that maintians God in it. Oh He has done so much more. And yet I don't look at it as being weak but showing (thats action not fuzzy feelings!) His character of Love.
God has set the rules, choose life or death, who will you worship. THose are the rules there are not other chances. He did not consult the will of man (esp. calvin) to see if that suite them as far as His soveriegnty goes. Nope, He is and if you don't like the way He sets things up then go ahead and call him incompetent or underachiever. He has beeen called worse, I wouldn't go that route though.

 

I know all of that Bill and I admitt your right I am allowing my sense of fair play or equity to be part of my thinking, but I also think there is scriptural reason for believing so. And on the other hand I admitt that it is a scarey thing that I may be telling God how to be God. I ask Him to show though and someday He will.
As too the tone, Hey I am German and lose my temper too. Its more out of frustration on both sides I am seeing.

 

Tim, you said

If this is kinda warped, then the Bible is kinda warped....

Rom 9:15-24 ESV For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[2] but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- (24) even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"

blessings,
Ken

 

some of the personal testimonies re God's absolute sovereignty reminded me of Jonathan Edwards recounting of his movement from a semi-Pelagian perspective to more of an Augustinian view....

blessings,
Ken